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SensE
post Jul 24 2009, 06:26 PM
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Hi everybody. All the gain head out there! I need your help!

I'm running Digitech Metal Master to a ENGL Fireball with Rocktron Super C running in the effect loop on high volume. I got tons of feedback, hiss and hum. Obviously, the rocktron super C doesn't seem to reduce the feedback, hiss at all. I've been trying the Rocktron for quite some times and it donesn't work.

Is there anyway to kill all these feedback? Is that my setting on Rocktron is not correctly set? Thank you.
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Emir Hot
post Jul 24 2009, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (SensE @ Jul 24 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Hi everybody. All the gain head out there! I need your help!

I'm running Digitech Metal Master to a ENGL Fireball with Rocktron Super C running in the effect loop on high volume. I got tons of feedback, hiss and hum. Obviously, the rocktron super C doesn't seem to reduce the feedback, hiss at all. I've been trying the Rocktron for quite some times and it donesn't work.

Is there anyway to kill all these feedback? Is that my setting on Rocktron is not correctly set? Thank you.


Could be that it's not correctly set (which I believe) and for the second option try this


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ZakkWylde
post Jul 24 2009, 06:46 PM
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FIRST OF ALL: WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU USING A DISTORTION PEDAL IN FRONT OF AN AMP WITH ONE OF THE BIGGEST HIGH GAIN POTENTIALS EVER BUILT?

The Fireball has way more than enough gain, it's just ridiciulous... There should really be no need for a distortion pedal.
I hope you don't use the digitech OVER the overdrive channel because it's unnecessary and if you're doing it, it's the source of your feedback problem!

Apart of that feedback is just something you have to deal with when using high powered amps with a lot of gain but there are some things to minimze the problem:

-better cables keep the noise down
-less gain (thats no option I know^^)
-better pickups in your guitar, well wax potted passive humbuckers have less feedback and active EMGs almost have NO feedback
-Don't stand to close to your cab and turn your guitar away from the amp


Last choice and a must at certain gain stages (Death Metal, Metalcore, etc): The Noisegate!

Most ENGL amps have a great one built into the heads with a switch and knob on the back, unfortunatley the Fireball 60watt version which I assume you have does not have a built in Noisegate (the 100 watt fireball has one...)

The best noisegate pedals are the rocktron hush and the ISP decimator, they are expensive but they only kill noise and not your tone (have the ISP myself to tame my Marshall). Noisgates work best IN FRONT of the amp imho!

This post has been edited by ZakkWylde: Jul 24 2009, 07:11 PM


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 24 2009, 07:29 PM
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The Rocktron is for hiss/noise and not really for feedback SensE. As to whether it is better before the amp or in the loop - experiment with positioning.

For feedback - before looking in to a feedback eliminator try a few other things. Feedback can vary according to the room you are in. First your positioning relative to the amp. Move around and see if it drops. Decouple your speaker cabinet from the floor - try putting it on a chair. Check which strings/frequencies are the worst offender/s and damp/mute them when feedback starts. As Zakk says consider different pickups.

If none of these work then I'd suggest trying a good parametric eq to focus on the frequency that's causing the issue and deal with it. It's pretty similar in principle to a feedback eliminator but will also provide more versatility. A disadvantage is that you will have to find the problem yourself and set the eq up.

If you don't want/haven't got the time to experiment with a parametric then look at a feedback eliminator as Emir suggests. The advantage of a feedback eliminator is that it can operate pretty much automatically. Disadvantage is that it may see a sustained note etc as feedback and cut it and unless set up properly could notch out frequencies you want and so adversely affect your overall tone.

ps the type of parametric eq you need - if you go this way - requires a 'Q'.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jul 24 2009, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jul 24 2009, 07:46 PM) *
FIRST OF ALL: WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU USING A DISTORTION PEDAL IN FRONT OF AN AMP WITH ONE OF THE BIGGEST HIGH GAIN POTENTIALS EVER BUILT?

I really don't see that there is a need to shout like this - Sense's question seems to be perfectly polite and motivated to me.


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ZakkWylde
post Jul 24 2009, 07:56 PM
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I did not mean to be rude or anything... I typed everything in capitol lettes because I was surprised how one can see the need of an extra distortion pedal with this amp!

I know the ENGL Fireball quite well and I have played it a couple of times and if you set the gain about half on this monster you get an insane distortion that's too heavy for anything else but Death Metal and stuff. Also I don't think that the pedals distortion sound will sound anywhere near as good as the amps distortion!

I am sorry if it sounded offensive, I just thought it was kinda funny to use a Distortion on this amp because it would be like buying a Ferrari but running it with the engine of a Family Van^^

This post has been edited by ZakkWylde: Jul 24 2009, 07:59 PM


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SensE
post Jul 24 2009, 07:59 PM
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I have the Fireball 100W version. I'm running pedal on clean channel though so that's not the case. I knew there is a built-in noise gate inside the amp, since I have a Hush Super C, I have never turned the built-in noise gate on. I will give it a shot tonight and see what's happening. I have the 2x12 cab resting on a small desk and I playing through the amp just 2 foot away from it (with my back facing it).

Kris, I think ZakkWlyde is not being rude or anything, but thank you for the concern
ZakkWlyde, thank you for your help. biggrin.gif
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ZakkWylde
post Jul 24 2009, 08:06 PM
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Do you really like the Digitech distortion pedal over the clean channel better than the Amps overdrive channel? Sure to each it's own if you like it but I can't really relate because I had that pedal once and I thought it wasn't very good sounding...

100Watt head? Great! The Problem is solved, just ask a buddy to get behind the amp while you stand where you always stand with your guitar. Mute your strings then release them; you will get feedback. Ask your friend to turn the Gate up slowly and keep muting all strings and then release them. Do this until all the feedback is gone when you are not plucking any strings and keep the noisegate at that level!


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Scott Gentzen
post Jul 24 2009, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jul 24 2009, 01:46 PM) *
FIRST OF ALL: WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU USING A DISTORTION PEDAL IN FRONT OF AN AMP WITH ONE OF THE BIGGEST HIGH GAIN POTENTIALS EVER BUILT?


I don't have the mentioned amp and distortion combination, but I'm a fan of "nasty and wrong" and play around with it when I can. I would have tried it.

I was helping out a friend with a problem she was havign with a tuner on her Ovation electric/acoustic. First thing I did after I got the strings back on it was plug into my EVJ, crank it, then kick in the harmonic percolator.

electric/acoustics feed back pretty easily. especially when you only have 12ft of cable.


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MickeM
post Jul 24 2009, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Jul 24 2009, 09:06 PM) *
100Watt head? Great! The Problem is solved, just ask a buddy to get behind the amp while you stand where you always stand with your guitar. Mute your strings then release them; you will get feedback. Ask your friend to turn the Gate up slowly and keep muting all strings and then release them. Do this until all the feedback is gone when you are not plucking any strings and keep the noisegate at that level!

If I got it right he's on clean, I suspect the Engl noise gate only operates on the lead channel. To my logic it would be overkill to have it also on the clean.


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 25 2009, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Jul 24 2009, 10:47 PM) *
If I got it right he's on clean, I suspect the Engl noise gate only operates on the lead channel. To my logic it would be overkill to have it also on the clean.


Yeah, I think so, they have noise reduction only for overdrive channels.
Tho I believe Zakk was talking about Super C.


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ZakkWylde
post Jul 25 2009, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 25 2009, 08:51 AM) *
Yeah, I think so, they have noise reduction only for overdrive channels.
Tho I believe Zakk was talking about Super C.


No I was talking about the built in Noisegate, but I thought they work on the clean channel aswell (and I still think they do, gotta try it out next time I play an ENGL)

I doubt that the Super C is capable of reducing SensE's amount of feedback because I have experienced that extreme feedback can only be controlled by putting the Gate in front of the amp and not into the fx loop.


Now that I remembered my own Digitech Metal Master pedal at high volumes I think the problem might aswell be the Pedal itself; it tends to feedback a lot if played through a loud amp and I guess you are rehearsing with your amp so you have it really loud! The Metal Master is not a very high quality pedal (but great for the price you pay imho). Maybe you can modify the pedal itself to keep it from feedbacking!


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SensE
post Jul 27 2009, 06:01 AM
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I appreciate everyone who leave advise and sugestion. I found out the sources of those feedback.
1) The Digitech Metal Master at high volume
2) Im playing with my back facing the amp in short distance in unfurnished basement

I gave up on the Rocktron. I think I purchased a bad unit. (I got it used from ebay, T.T)
I try the built-in noise gate instead and it works nicely. It get rids of the noise generated by the preamp section in overdrive channel but it doesn't work for clean channel with pedal though.

I took my amp to a friend of mine that owns a small studio and tested it. I turned my amp around (not facing me) and I got zero feedback, no hiss and hum on the overdrive channel at high volume with built-in noise gate on.

I think I need a nosie reduction pedal thats run in front of the amp but as of now, I just don't use that Digitech pedal.

Back to the question of Zakk Wlyde why do I need distortion pedal on Fireball? The gain level of 100W version is different compared to the 60W version. I turn the gain level of 100 W version past 3 o'clock and the sound is still not "stiff" and "metal-ish" like those generated from Metal Master. (I think you know what Im talking about). I do not know why ENGL made such changes to the gain section of 100W version. I don't own the Z-4 footswitch so I was thinking use the distortion pedal for quick switching clean and distortion for certain songs.
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ZakkWylde
post Jul 27 2009, 11:17 AM
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After this discussion I tested the 100 watt version of the Fireball (I have only played the 60 watt so far) and I was suprised that the 100 watt fireball is more rockish than the 60 watt fireball.

The 60 watt Engl is a brutaly thight high gain monster while the 100 watt version is a bit smoother with a larger dynamic range but it can get equally heavy and tight, it just takes a bit of tweaking and a HIGH volume...

I would suggest a ISP decimator Noisegate if you want to use your distortion pedal OR (my choice if I was you) the footswitch for channel changes and an overdrive set to 0 gain and 10 level on the gain channel - this should give you the tightness and distortion you are missing right now. Try it out if it works for you!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 27 2009, 11:01 PM
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I would agree with Zakk and not use the pedal at all man. This pedal is way to low quality compared to the amp, it can only limit it's potential. Of course you could be used to this pedal and get a good sound of it so I guess there is a meaning of use here. Just try to keep the pedal in the function of pushing the front end of your amp instead of using distortion from a pedal. Pedal is distorting way to bad compared to sweet sweet tubes from ENGL. If you had some boutique overdrive or tube preamp that could have a meaning, but Digitech Metal Master, I doubt it. At least try to make some combinations or use the drive from the amp for a while just to experiment a bit with the settings, you might get some cool sounds.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Jul 27 2009, 11:04 PM


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Toni Suominen
post Jul 28 2009, 12:26 PM
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+1 to Zakk and Ivan, I would also suggest that you ditch the Metal Master. If you don't find the overdrive channel on the Fireball "metal-ish" enough, try to tighten and boost the overdrive channel with an OD pedal (like Maxon 808)


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audiopaal
post Aug 1 2009, 07:30 PM
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I have to agree with the people telling you to ditch the pedal as well..
I owned a Powerball, and from what I've heard it doesn't differ too much from a Fireball.

The metal sounds you can get out of these Engl amps is amazing (with no pedal),
and as Toni said you can always try to tighten and boost the overdrive channel with an OD pedal smile.gif

But each to his own, if you really like the sound you should keep it.
But try out different things and try to get the best sound you can out of the amp, and then add effects if need be smile.gif
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Janos Kallai
post Aug 1 2009, 07:55 PM
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Hello,

I have an Engl Richie Blackmore amplifier and Engl cab.
I used to have a lot of effect pedals (15 pieces), but since I bought
my Engl equipment, I don’t need pedals anymore.
I use my guitar, the cable and the Engl, and nothing else.
I play in trio. I turn the volume button half back when I play chords or riffs,
and I turn out fully the volume knob, when I play solo.


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SensE
post Aug 6 2009, 04:38 AM
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Thank you guys for all the good advise. I tried the ISP Decimator G-string that Zakk Wylde suggested and it works amazing. It eliminates all the hums and feedback and the "waterfall" sound. I'm happy now ^ ^
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ZakkWylde
post Aug 6 2009, 12:52 PM
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The G string is even better (and more expensive) than the regular Decimator, the one I meant and recomended^^


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