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The Uncreator
post Jul 28 2009, 12:39 AM
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Me and one of my friends who often spend time debating and asking each other questions about philosophical/ spiritual matters had a nice long conversation about a topic most people probably don't consider. Robots developing consciousness and self-awareness, And I'm quite serious too. First of all, we already have robots with A.I. that can actually learn, albeit at a slow and limited pace.

But, I believe that in 50-100 years we will have something that is firmly capable of developing and learning at accelerated rate beyond human capabilities, Even though we will have strict limits on it initially, I believe in time, Something like this will become fully aware and conscious of itself. (Intentional or not)

My question is this:

You live in the time where robots, AI or what have you, Develop consciousness and awareness. Now throw in the fact that they also possess the capacity for emotion: compassion, love, joy, sorrow, and yes, hate.

Do you accept this?
Do you think its even possible?

Do you write it off as simple claims of an intelligent program or do you attempt to understand it regardless of what the outcome may be?

Lastly, just cause I know it will come up. I do not think that any such event like the Terminator or I-Robot will take place (At least I-Robot the movie), I don't think an intelligence would resort to all out extinction of a race, Although I guess its possible.



So, what say you?


PS

Apologies if this is too serious for a guitar forum, but its the only forum I'm on anymore laugh.gif



EDIT

I guess I didn't directly give my answer on this did I? laugh.gif


Well, personally. If I was confronted with something that claimed conscious awareness and emotion such as this, I could not resist the chance to see if this was true. If this indeed was true that they had the full potential of emotion, I could only confront this with open arms. To me, humanity is defined a lot things but one stands out, our capabilities for emotion, No other species we know of can match it. At least not in the ways we express it (Music, poetry, books, movies).

If something else could develop this as well, Well as far as I'm concerned, they are in essence, "Human". Not homo sapien "human", but a species on its own, a race, an intelligence, a part of us, Maybe even our natural evolution?

All things are made from elements from the universe, So I see this kind of thing in a way a natural thing in the cosmos.
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Ctodd
post Jul 28 2009, 02:11 AM
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I just love these kinds of discussions.

I think maybe we will be able to approach human intelligence in the time you specified, Uncreator, but I don't think we can ever match it. (maybe some day, when our grandchildren are old, maybe)

think about it. Yes we might be able to make a robot that can analyze certain problems better than humans, but do you think that we can program a robot to feel thirsty? to have a taste in music that is indistinguishable from that of a human?

sure you might be able to make a robot tell Bach from someone just randomly banging away on a piano, but to think that robots will match humans in the respect seems WAY to extreme.
QUOTE
Apparently by 2055 (round about) it is predicted there will be robots that can beat a football team a their own sport.


I dont really see this happening at all.

the amount of time and money that will be needed for scientists to create robots just to challenge a football team is ridiculous. The money will be used on something else.

though I would like to see the day when/if this does happen.

EDIT: IF I was comfronted by a robot claiming it had full emotion, I would try to mess with it by telling him the Barber paradox

This post has been edited by Ctodd: Jul 28 2009, 02:14 AM


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The Uncreator
post Jul 28 2009, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Jul 27 2009, 05:11 PM) *
I just love these kinds of discussions.

I think maybe we will be able to approach human intelligence in the time you specified, Uncreator, but I don't think we can ever match it. (maybe some day, when our grandchildren are old, maybe)

think about it. Yes we might be able to make a robot that can analyze certain problems better than humans, but do you think that we can program a robot to feel thirsty? to have a taste in music that is indistinguishable from that of a human?

sure you might be able to make a robot tell Bach from someone just randomly banging away on a piano, but to think that robots will match humans in the respect seems WAY to extreme.


I dont really see this happening at all.

the amount of time and money that will be needed for scientists to create robots just to challenge a football team is ridiculous. The money will be used on something else.

though I would like to see the day when/if this does happen.

EDIT: IF I was comfronted by a robot claiming it had full emotion, I would try to mess with it by telling him the Barber paradox



Im thinking, not hundred, maybe a thousand plus years. I do think technology will eventually outdo itself and in some way shape and form, develop thought and emotion (Or I should say, the potential is there, Time shall tell). And such a feeling like thirst is not so good a comparison I think, 100% valid, but its like saying we do not feel the need to return to the same spot to give birth every year like some animals do, Something like that would depend on the species and its innate need for it.

Emotion, however. I think would be a key characteristic in a sentient species, Or at least the compatibility for understanding of it, Beyond something programmed, Something learned through experienced.

PS

Touche on the barber's paradox! laugh.gif

My physics teacher told me that back in school and I tried to find a way around it and gave up.
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Santiago Diaz Ga...
post Jul 28 2009, 05:56 AM
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Did you think that if someone build an "extremely skillful guitar robot player" with the inteligence of Paul Gilbert, John Petrucci, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman, Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Romeo, Van Halen, Etc, etc ,etc... we are lost? Think about it, it's too serious!!.


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Koopid
post Jul 28 2009, 06:44 AM
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I do Not believe machines will develop selfawareness. Ever.

I believe you can make them fake anything, including emotions, believably but selfawareness is something else. Not even all animals are believed to have that.


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post Jul 28 2009, 10:25 AM
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I'm pretty sure humanity won't survive the next 1000 years, let alone develop "feeling," robots. Western culture, mainly, has advanced much faster than it has evolved. If we continue at this pace, we will have lost ever bit of the innate human spirit that make us...well, human. Maybe we'll be lucky, but we obviously have thrown management out the window.

Just my thoughts.


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Canis
post Aug 3 2009, 01:33 AM
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Personally, I'd love a "I-robot" scenario biggrin.gif ... You know, without the Riot part...

Anyway, with the speed technology is evolving these days, I think we could have some working robots up and (or not nessicarily) walking within a few decades. Self-counciousness however... I don't think so. But they might be programmed to seem that way, and we might get so used to them that we forget that they're not.

If robots should hypothetically evolve such conciousness, they might also learn other things from us humans. If robots should start acting like us, doing crime (thinking: "I earn easy money this way!") and starting wars (thinking: "I can be feared and/or respected by everyone!") ... We'd be a goner! Since my bet is that they would be built quite a lot sturdier then human bones and tissue...

Fun to think about though! If the technology allows it, I wanna be freezed down when I get older, so I can see how things has worked out in a few hundred years tongue.gif


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sigma7
post Aug 3 2009, 01:55 AM
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I do not think a computer chip can ever capture emotions. Sure, it can learn but that is not a trait of the soul but of the brain. If anything, a robot can make facial expressions that imitate the emotion to the situation but it can never feel. It would need memories, a natural instinct of positive and negative sanctions, and a conscious. And no man alive will be able to replicate the human design out of nano, computer chips, or software. It is simply impossible.

I would not except this either. Although if someone were to create something as magnificent as this and would be a huge leap for mankind, it would also be demeaning. I mean, think about it. Of all the problems we have today, such as global warming, hunger, AIDS, cancer, etc., humankind decides to develop robots for no purpose but to serve our every needs. First off, that is a sign of laziness. We are capable to do our own work and we should interact with other human beings instead of robots not to mention all the job loss that would occur as well. Second, it shows how selfish and vain humans are by ignoring the needy and developing a perfect piece of machinery that is in every way, shape, and form just like us. I would be disgusted to see funds going toward this instead of the above dilemmas. And I would never accept this.


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The Uncreator
post Aug 3 2009, 04:01 AM
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Sorry to say then that we already have robots like the ones you dont want to see(Ever seen those cool little vacuum cleaners that clean rooms for you, look like a frisbees with a purpose laugh.gif )

Its the natural course of things for us, What I'm talking about though isn't applying to modern times in any way. I'm talking the far future. Where we would have either solved the energy problems, or we doomed ourselves and we'll never reach this point anyway. So today's problems can't really come into context with it, unless you assume we never solve them (In which case I doubt there will be a future as far as the theoretical one I'm suggesting).

Computer A.I. can learn on its own, There are robots that learn language, recognize emotions by facial expressions and tone of voice (It can even recognize attitudes, Which I thought was cool). In theory nothing really stops it from learning more and more except modern technology.

I don't believe robots would make us lazy, if your lazy your lazy. Sure it will relieve of us simple ever day chores, But we still would have to work and work and work to pay the bills and all that horrible stuff.

Good to see all these answers, I wasn't expecting much to be honest, Glad I got something though. I love these kind of topics
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besip
post Aug 3 2009, 04:35 AM
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Since i'm Czech guy i have to tell you something a litle of -topic but werry interesing abouth Robot'S

you know where first was use word Robot??????

thats was by This czech writer-> Karel Capek { on his book R.U.R.} and his brother Jozef made this word popular by using him on theatre around the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_%C4%8Capek

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btw i belive those robots are and be smarter smarter and smarter
hope people to huh.gif

and if we be like to se future robots in 50 years we have to ask american army smile.gif

This post has been edited by besip: Aug 3 2009, 09:42 PM


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The Uncreator
post Aug 3 2009, 12:45 PM
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Thats some cool stuff, I never knew who invented the word robot smile.gif

Maybe in 50 years we will have robotic parts that will make us smarter and smarter, Or at least increase brain capabilities, that would be cool. That kind of technology could also cure a lot of sickness too.

Lose all 4 limbs in a motorcycle accident? No problem...

...We have the technology...
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steve25
post Aug 3 2009, 01:30 PM
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I've been doing this kind of stuff for a fair few years now and even writing my own AI programs etc. Firstly, you ask the question of what if computers will one day feel emotion. Well answer me this, can you yourself explain to another human being what anger is? What fear is or even what instinct is? If humans cannot explain this to another human then it is impossible to explain it to a computer and therefore will not happen. Now if we can then there is a chance that we can tell a computer what it is but as of yet an explanation of these emotions and feelings have not been made or at least not to a suitable level to teach a computer.

The thing you have to understand is that a computer is stupid and cannot do anything for itself. It has to be told what to do. In fact a computer can only understand 2 numbers: 1 and 0. This is known as Binary look it up if you're interested. Because of this, a computer will only ever do what humans have told it to do. Now if we allow computers to be able to turn on and off when we want it to it will do that. If we want a computer to launch a missile at a particular spot it will. However it will not suddenly get up and think "I don't like the Chinese, it's going there" unless of course we have told it that it can do that (through programming languages).

The phrase Artificial Intelligence is quite misleading I think. Yes you are giving the computer the ability to make a decision but only based on input or certain data. And this intelligence has only come from humans. We have given the computer the intelligence because as I said they cannot do a thing for themselves.

There will always be 2 sides to this argument. Lets take a very old but classic example that researchers have used over the years called the Chinese Room: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room. The argument is that if a computer one day becomes intelligent enough to speak fluent chinese to the extent that a human chinese speaker would not be able to tell the difference between whether they were speaking to a human or a machine. Now one argument states that at this point the computer actually understands chinese and can respond exactly as a human can, therefore it is as intelligent as us. The other side's argument is that the computer never actually "understands" chinese, it just links words and phrases based on input from the human user. Therefore the computer is still not really "intelligent".

Have a think about what things around you today are classed as AI. Is your spell checker in MS Word AI? Why or why not? In my opinion I don't think we are doomed as people say because computers will get out of hand. Therefore I think a lot of the fear going around over this is just hype built up. On the other hand I do agree that we are far from the extent in which we can push computers and machines in general there is still a lot of development left to go
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The Uncreator
post Aug 3 2009, 02:29 PM
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With today's technologies, none of this possible of course. And yes an AI is ultimately dumb in the sense it has to be told what to do.

I read an article by this scientist I saw on a documentary (Im gonna look for his name now) that basically says one day we could be using organic materials to make computers or base computers off of. (Even a human brain, in theory, was possible), So basically its a DNA based computer. If we do instill this kind of technology, I've always wondered, could a brain if kept essentially alive would become aware of itself, especially a human brain?


Well answer me this, can you yourself explain to another human being what anger is? What fear is or even what instinct is? If humans cannot explain this to another human then it is impossible to explain it to a computer and therefore will not happen.

These are understandings obtained through experiences, which I was proposing what if AI started to develop its own experiences and memories, Wouldn't this technically be the same thing, an understanding of emotion? I believe so. Now the question of a robot or what have you actually having these is what I find most interesting. I've read some books that say in theory its possible, but hey, 11 dimensions in theory is possible. While I believe it possible in some way for this happen, Id say it is HIGHLY unlikely it will ever happen. Chances so astronomical it might as well be neglected almost.

The thing you have to understand is that a computer is stupid and cannot do anything for itself. It has to be told what to do. In fact a computer can only understand 2 numbers: 1 and 0. This is known as Binary look it up if you're interested. Because of this, a computer will only ever do what humans have told it to do. Now if we allow computers to be able to turn on and off when we want it to it will do that. If we want a computer to launch a missile at a particular spot it will. However it will not suddenly get up and think "I don't like the Chinese, it's going there" unless of course we have told it that it can do that (through programming languages).

The phrase Artificial Intelligence is quite misleading I think. Yes you are giving the computer the ability to make a decision but only based on input or certain data. And this intelligence has only come from humans. We have given the computer the intelligence because as I said they cannot do a thing for themselves.


I can see what your getting at. But what if the ability to make the decisions turns into a realization that there also are other decisions to be made? However unlikely it is, there is no mathematical or scientific formula that states factually that this is impossible (Or any I know of at least). Sure we will install boundaries and limitations on it, But these things can be overcome if an AI (especially an organic based or super-cooled one) realizes this, I think at least.

My belief is basically based on the idea that I think that one day we will ultimately be, in a sense, Cybernetic. While the human nature will still be there of course, I cant imagine us ever ridding ourselves of that, I think from this kind of technology (Restoration of paralysis and such with restored connections with muscles to the brain with machines) that this kind of situation can be born. Will it? I doubt it, but I'm a very open person. All this is technology under research now, And I think it will lead to success someday. Probably not perfected in my lifetime but maybe my children or grandchildren it might see some kind fruition.


There will always be 2 sides to this argument. Lets take a very old but classic example that researchers have used over the years called the Chinese Room: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room. The argument is that if a computer one day becomes intelligent enough to speak fluent chinese to the extent that a human chinese speaker would not be able to tell the difference between whether they were speaking to a human or a machine. Now one argument states that at this point the computer actually understands chinese and can respond exactly as a human can, therefore it is as intelligent as us. The other side's argument is that the computer never actually "understands" chinese, it just links words and phrases based on input from the human user. Therefore the computer is still not really "intelligent".

Have a think about what things around you today are classed as AI. Is your spell checker in MS Word AI? Why or why not? In my opinion I don't think we are doomed as people say because computers will get out of hand. Therefore I think a lot of the fear going around over this is just hype built up. On the other hand I do agree that we are far from the extent in which we can push computers and machines in general there is still a lot of development left to go.


My physics teacher used to talk to us about the chinese room, I'm not quite sure which side of the fence I would be on to be honest, I guess it would depend in which way this kind of ability was applied. I don't consider any household appliance or computer an AI. When i think AI, I think of the robots private companies, scientists, and investors build, stuff still in a fetal stage, and really barely an intelligence. But its this kind of stuff that just leads me to wonder.



Also I must add, that the human brain would not be used as a computation device, rather a medium for understanding or perception in some way. Computers already have quadrillions the times of computational power a human brain will ever have, So this would obviously be like going back to using the refrigerator sized computer housing 2MB of ram today laugh.gif


EDIT

Here is a cool scientist who delves into this kind of stuff some times by the way, Some interesting articles.

John Horgan
http://www.johnhorgan.org/

I like this one a lot for some reason.
http://www.johnhorgan.org/can_a_single_bra...hink__43703.htm


He also uses a favorite quote of mine. "The brain is complex enough to conjure fantasies of technotranscendence and also to foil their fulfillment"
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steve25
post Aug 3 2009, 03:30 PM
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Some feelings are through experience yes but not a lot of them. When you are born you already have most of these therefore it is natural and cannot necessarily be taught to something especially something that is unnatural. Either way whether you believe it is through experience or nature that you have emotions and instinct a computer needs to be taught what they are and not through experience itself.

What you said about boundaries is absolutely correct, a computer does not go beyond this because it doesn't know how to because as I said it is not actually intelligent. I noticed you said that you consider AI to be very advanced computer systems such as a robot for example. But in fact not all robots are AI some of them are used to perform very simply procedures which is used to aid in manufacturing for example. IT may not be AI but it is still classed a robot.

Now what about expert systems? These are computer programs used to simulate an expert human by giving advice. Here's a wiki article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system. I've built one of these myself and I can say that they are not very complicated at all, it's just branching decisions based on the information that you give it. Very simple but this is also artificial intelligence because it is simulating "intelligent" decisions that would normal be made by an expert human.

Sp with an expert system it seems that the computer is being intelligent but guess where it gets its knowledge from? Yet again it's from a human who has given the computer this information through his/her's own experience and expert knowledge.

Going back to the instinct and emotion thing, you can create a robot to act as if it is feeling a type of emotion such as anger or sadness or whichever but the truth is it doesn't actually feel this emotion and it wouldn't be able to "understand" it. I do believe that computers will eventually be able to discover things for itself but not like you think or expect.

By all means though i'm open for many other theories but these are my own through my own research into it. However I have yet to hear an argument about AI going further than I think without good backup on it although to be fair right not that's very hard to do. Most people that speak to me about it though are outsiders that aren't much into computers going "they will kill us all". Glad to finally speak to someone who isn't like that (you) smile.gif
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post Aug 3 2009, 08:45 PM
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deep, very deep guys, but just the type of debate i love. havnt got a lot of time to get stuck in to this one so in short the rate of technological development in the last fifty years has been practically exponential so i do beleive that in the next few decades you will see computers (or software) that will be able to mimic human emotion or even seem like desicion making but it will be just that a mimic,( garbage in garbage out).
true AI will never happen in our lifetime but we will get close to a form of it, i work for a company that uses computers for modelling that operate at 40 terraflops, these things are the size of a transit van but in 10 years or less the same computational power will fit in the palm of your hand.
for me the concern is not that computers will develop emotions or thought but that our entire civilisation, economy and how we live will utterly depend upon computation and its smooth operation. civilisation will get to a tipping point where there is no going back and any failure of these systems will mean mass disaster.
thats the bit that worries me.


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post Aug 3 2009, 08:53 PM
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Well, based on your timelines, none of this will occur (if at all) till long after I am dirt nappin'. I choose to spend my time dwelling on more current issues.


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The Uncreator
post Aug 3 2009, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Aug 3 2009, 06:30 AM) *
Most people that speak to me about it though are outsiders that aren't much into computers going "they will kill us all". Glad to finally speak to someone who isn't like that (you) smile.gif


Yes, i wasn't expecting this many people to show some good arguments and opinions.

QUOTE (Toroso @ Aug 3 2009, 11:53 AM) *
Well, based on your timelines, none of this will occur (if at all) till long after I am dirt nappin'. I choose to spend my time dwelling on more current issues.


"Dwell on the past, present, and future, because none is more important than the other, And each holds its own answers."

I can't remember who said or where I heard it though.
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leedbreak
post Aug 3 2009, 10:16 PM
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A little different topic but.....

I did see a show on tv where there is a robot that only knows one task. And that task is to make another one like itself, As long as the parts where there for it to grab it could make a clone of itself,


scary.


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The Uncreator
post Aug 3 2009, 10:21 PM
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Interesting as well. What was it called?
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post Aug 3 2009, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (leedbreak @ Aug 3 2009, 11:16 PM) *
A little different topic but.....

I did see a show on tv where there is a robot that only knows one task. And that task is to make another one like itself, As long as the parts where there for it to grab it could make a clone of itself,


scary.


But did it know its own shape at first, or could one form any shape for the 1st robot and then have it replicate itself?


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