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> Amp Dilemma!
sted
post Aug 2 2009, 04:25 PM
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Got it narrowed down to two amps now:

Fender 65 twin

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Output 85 watts into 4 ohms
Speakers 2-12" Jensen C-12K, 8 ohm Speakers with Ceramic Magnets
Channels Dual Channels (Normal and Vibrato)
Features Reverb, Vibrato, 2-Button Footswitch, Tilt Back Legs, Baltic Birch Plywood Cabinet
Covering Black Textured Vinyl with Silver Grille Cloth
Weight 64 lbs. (29.03 kg)
Dimensions
Height: 19.87" (50.46 cm),
Width: 26.5" (67.31 cm),
Depth: 10.5" (26.67 cm)
Tube Complement 4 X 12AX7, 2 X 12AT7, 4 X 6L6, Solid State Rectifier
Accessories 2-Button Footswitch for Reverb and Vibrato On/Off,

Fender Blues deluxe re-issue

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# Output - 40 Watts
# Speakers - 1x12 Special Design Eminence 8 ohm, 50 watt Speaker
# Channels - Dual Selectable Channels (Vintage and Drive)
# Covering - Genuine Tweed covering
# Weight - 45 lbs
# Dimensions - Height 18.75 inches, Width 23.5 inches, Depth 10.5 inches
# Tube Complement - 3 x 12AX7, 2 x 6L6, SS Rectifier
# Accessories - 2 Button Footswitch for Drive Select and Reverb On/Off

I cant seperate these in terms of performance, my biggest fear is that the 40w wont be loud enough, although I really pefer the deluxe re-issue.

Thoughts?
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ZakkWylde
post Aug 2 2009, 04:32 PM
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Get the Reissue! It's definitely the sweeter sounding amp.

Oh and don't worry about 40 tube watts being not loud enough, 40 watts are almost as loud as 100 watts and I have never seen anyone play a cranked 100 watt amp!


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MickeM
post Aug 2 2009, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE (sted @ Aug 2 2009, 05:25 PM) *
my biggest fear is that the 40w wont be loud enough, although

Loud enough for what? For playing at home, no doubt!


Regarding band situations, in my own experience from different bands and different amps 50W will always work.
30 is balancing on the edge, with a silent drummer and silent band it will work. I've gigged on a 30W amp aswell as an 18W but that was in pubs which didn't allow a too loud band since they had dinner guests. Once when I was between amps I brought a 30W to a gig and it completely drowned in the bandmix.
On a stage where the amp isn't miked and there's a pure show, no whimpy dinner guest to conciderate or at band rehearsal I'd say 50W or more is the way to go. Though 50W can be used at a louder volume hence better use of tubes compared to f.ex a 100 or 200 watt amp.

All kinds will work if the amp is miked.

-> 15W home use
15-30W and below - Silent pub gig, small venue
50W good for most situations, a modern amp will sound good also in your bedroom
100W and above is mostly overkill. At stages where one would need 100W they usually mike the amp anyway.

Where I've played it's usually so that a good stage will have a sound technician that will make sure miking is available.
If not, we don't care about miking but we just play the amps and both guitarists have 50W amp.

Then there's loud 30W amps and silent 30W amps where a loud one maybe is closer to 50W output while a silent one might be closer to 20W.
Like my 5W Blackstar while is as loud as a 15W Orange TT and my Vox AC4TV 4W which is a lot quieter than the 5W Blackstar though in theory there should be no difference in how loud they are. I'm guiessing the Blackstar puts out between 10-15 watts while the Vox is maybe 4 like stated.

It's concideraby different! The Blackstar kills the Vox in terms out loudness.
As my 50W H&K brings my 30W to the slaughter.
In theory, not much difference. In reality there's something else.


Try the 40W Fender. If you can stand to be in the same room without earplugs it's not loud enough wink.gif (some truth to it)


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sted
post Aug 9 2009, 07:36 PM
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Hey guys, update on the above!

I tried both of these amps and really liked the pair of them, the 65 was just enormous though, huge thing that I could barely lift with one hand, also I didnt really see the point of having the two seperate channels that werent footswitchable on the bigger amp, its not like ill be plugging in two guitars.

One thing that confused me was the pre-amp and power amp jacks on the reissue, the guy in the shop said these cant be used for effects, yet the fender website clearly states it has an effects loop in the specs for this amp, I suspect the guy talking crap and didnt want to admit it but can anyone clear this up for me?

Oh and on the loudness issue, the 40 watts is DEFINITLEY enough! god knows what fender do to their amps but this thing was way louder than a 50w vox a guy was testing too!
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fkalich
post Aug 9 2009, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (sted @ Aug 2 2009, 10:25 AM) *
I cant seperate these in terms of performance, my biggest fear is that the 40w wont be loud enough, although I really pefer the deluxe re-issue.

Thoughts?


Have no fear. The relationship between watts and loudness is far from being linear.

If you double the watts, your loudness will increase by 3db, just barely enough for most people to be able to tell the difference. To be twice as loud as your 40 watt amp, you would need a 400 watt amp.


QUOTE (MickeM @ Aug 2 2009, 11:21 AM) *
It's concideraby different! The Blackstar kills the Vox in terms out loudness.
As my 50W H&K brings my 30W to the slaughter.
In theory, not much difference. In reality there's something else.


Most people could not tell the difference between a 50 and 30 W amp, all things being equal. About 2db. I have an amp that runs in 5 watt or 16 watt mode. I can hardly tell the difference. Some brand Amps are louder, no question. I understand the Steve Vai Carvin is super loud, some people complain about that.

Here is an article that explains some of it.


http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html


This post has been edited by fkalich: Aug 9 2009, 08:04 PM
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sted
post Aug 9 2009, 08:51 PM
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thanks guys, any thoughts on the effects loop?
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MickeM
post Aug 9 2009, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 9 2009, 09:00 PM) *
Most people could not tell the difference between a 50 and 30 W amp, all things being equal. About 2db. I have an amp that runs in 5 watt or 16 watt mode. I can hardly tell the difference. Some brand Amps are louder, no question. I understand the Steve Vai Carvin is super loud, some people complain about that.

Here is an article that explains some of it.


http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html

True, but A-B testing the amps right beside one another will reviel a differance. I have that opportunity with the 4W Vox and the 5W Blackstar. And since it's noticable I tend to belive the difference in watts are more than only 1.
Then, the difference between, like in your example 5 and 16 watt modes, doesn't lie that much in the volume but the sound shape between the two states.

It's also easy to tell the differance between a 30 watt amp and a 50 watt amp if you have a point of reference. Where the 30 watt amp gets eaten and 50 watt will overtake the band, and the band is the point of reference. Very little difference in theory but a big difference in a real situation..

You're also then aware that 50w equals a little more than 80% of 100 w.
In the bandsituation again, 100 watts is way over the top while 50 watts does the job. While on could turn the 100w up to 2-3 on the volume (and it being very sensitive too) I can get the 50w up to 5-6 which means the tubes will work and sound lot better.
Both 50w and 100w will have enough volume to be heard, while the 50w is a lot easier to operate.
The 30w amp is a Peavey while the 50 and 100 both are the same H&K Switchblade where I pulled a pair of tubes some time ago. Also my old JCM800 50 w had enough volume to be heard and overpower the band.

When trying out a new amp it's difficult to decide, without a reference (a band) it's impossible to decide right there in the store if it's loud enough. And everyone have different reference points hence different bands so what's right for me is no guaratee it's right for you.
Like I said I've gigged on that 30w amp and also a handbuilt 18w and there was no problem to be heard since the pub wanted a low overall volume. I've also gigged where the 30w amp wasn't enough.
5 watts will sound very loud in the store or in your otherwise silent basement or garage, put it with a drummer, a bass and a vocalist and and no miking possible, you can pack your things and leave wink.gif

Theory is one thing but a band situation and a noisy crowd is something else. Theory doesn't help you when you're on stage with an amp that's too weak laugh.gif
Then there are techniques like to line and mike which will be common at live gigs. On rehearsals though, I only play through the amp myself.

P.S I've seem a lot of comments on youtube etc that a Orange TT or any other 15 w amp is enough to gig with. Imo that's only part true. A quiet pup gig, move it up a notch and it'll drown. A guy brought a TT to bandrehearsal once and it was far from enough. That was with another drummer I played with in another band I was in, but like the drummer in my original band they are both hard hitters. From that aspect I'm colored in the way there's a lot to sound to fight.
But hearing the other bands in the batcave where we rehearse many of them play even louder than we do.

When trying out a new amp it's a good idea to borrow it for band practice to see it it's enough.
For playing at home I don't see any need for more than 15 watts. And with neighbours 1/4 watt is fine (like the Vox Ac4TV)

QUOTE (sted @ Aug 9 2009, 09:51 PM) *
thanks guys, any thoughts on the effects loop?

I don't know the amp. If it has send and return, fx in and fx out; or similar that's an effects loop.
Do you have a picture of the back?


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Aug 10 2009, 09:40 AM
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On Fenders FX loop is usually labeled as preamp out-poweramp in instead of send-return.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Aug 10 2009, 09:40 AM


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Jesse
post Aug 10 2009, 10:27 AM
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Sted, I'm jealous maaan!!!

How bouts a bassman re-issue:D


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audiopaal
post Aug 10 2009, 11:36 AM
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I'd have gone for thw Twin, just because I really like the sound of a Fender Twin smile.gif
It's loud as a warm place, but it sounds killer biggrin.gif
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Aug 10 2009, 11:53 AM
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The choice is simple really - Twin will have better sound, but it is heavier and you will need a pedal straight away if you want clean/distorted sound. You can A/B the channels but overdrive will be much bigger then, and you will have to use volume on guitar.

Blues Reissue will have less bass and power (still plenty tho, those Fender combos have nice boomy bass cause they are not completely open in the back), but two channels. It will be lighter, and believe me this is one of the most important things to consider when buying.

Regarding power 40W is plenty for any gig. You will not always have big headroom with 40W but it is always plenty. With Twin you would have plenty of headroom for any gig, but with Blues one not a big headroom. One day a gig will come where you have to crank it and the overtones will pop out. Some people like to play like this, so if you like that crunchy fender clean then you'll be in heaven, if not, if you need precise clean, with small amount of overdrive go for the twin.


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sted
post Aug 10 2009, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Aug 10 2009, 09:40 AM) *
On Fenders FX loop is usually labeled as preamp out-poweramp in instead of send-return.


thats exactly what these were labelled as mate, i thought it was for effects but the guy just gave me some other rubbish about recording???

QUOTE (Jesse @ Aug 10 2009, 10:27 AM) *
Sted, I'm jealous maaan!!!

How bouts a bassman re-issue:D


I actually really liked the bassman but it was heeeeaaaaavvy!! the hot rod series are more manageable.

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Aug 10 2009, 11:36 AM) *
I'd have gone for thw Twin, just because I really like the sound of a Fender Twin smile.gif
It's loud as a warm place, but it sounds killer biggrin.gif


The twin had an instantly darker sound which was nice but it was way too heavy and the non switching channel thing would just annoy me.


QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Aug 10 2009, 11:53 AM) *
The choice is simple really - Twin will have better sound, but it is heavier and you will need a pedal straight away if you want clean/distorted sound. You can A/B the channels but overdrive will be much bigger then, and you will have to use volume on guitar.

Blues Reissue will have less bass and power (still plenty tho, those Fender combos have nice boomy bass cause they are not completely open in the back), but two channels. It will be lighter, and believe me this is one of the most important things to consider when buying.

Regarding power 40W is plenty for any gig. You will not always have big headroom with 40W but it is always plenty. With Twin you would have plenty of headroom for any gig, but with Blues one not a big headroom. One day a gig will come where you have to crank it and the overtones will pop out. Some people like to play like this, so if you like that crunchy fender clean then you'll be in heaven, if not, if you need precise clean, with small amount of overdrive go for the twin.


Precise cleans arent really in my repertoire, I would love a gig where I could crank the amp into its natural overdrive! anyway for the type of small bar gigs ill be doing i think the size, power and features are just right for me, obviously it will need a nice overdrive pedal but isnt that half the fun? I also have a magic box that acts as a master volume for these which sites in the loop which can give me drive at lower volumes too.

Ive ordered the Blues reissue now so ill clip it when it turns up with my new strat and post it. biggrin.gif
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Sensible Jones
post Aug 10 2009, 03:34 PM
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Looking forward to some soundclips of the new set-up Sted!!!!
Congrats on the new purchases!!!!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Aug 10 2009, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (sted @ Aug 10 2009, 04:03 PM) *
Precise cleans arent really in my repertoire, I would love a gig where I could crank the amp into its natural overdrive! anyway for the type of small bar gigs ill be doing i think the size, power and features are just right for me, obviously it will need a nice overdrive pedal but isnt that half the fun? I also have a magic box that acts as a master volume for these which sites in the loop which can give me drive at lower volumes too.

Ive ordered the Blues reissue now so ill clip it when it turns up with my new strat and post it. biggrin.gif


THat's great man! If you like overdriven Fender tone you will be very happy wink.gif Put a nice pedal in front of it, happiness will only grow biggrin.gif
Let us know when it arrives smile.gif


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