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Martin la guitar...
post Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM
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Hello! Im trying to learn some theory in blues now. Yesterday, I came across a blues theory video at youtube. Im quite new to theory so i really would like you to help me with this questions cuz they make complete no sense to me.

He sais like this (12 bar blues progression):

"In the key of A we call the A chord for the one chord or the tonic chord, based on the first note scale.."

Does he talk about the penta scale? If I play in the key of E, would that make the E chord the one chord aswell, based on where i started the progression?

"When you go to the fourth note of the scale, you have a D. We call it a four chord"


But if i play the penta at the key of A, the D is the third note....?Why do you call it a four chord?
A------(5)
E ------5----8


"Then the E is right next to the D, so we call it the five chord."


Um....I dont get it....Do i measure the notes from the penta scale or what. Why is it called the the five chord? And how can it be right next to D? Dont we have flats or sharps in between?

"And 1, 4, 5 is the foundation of what we call blues."

I guess he's reffering to the chords. But if i was playing in the key of E, Would that make it 1,4,5 or would the notes be different?

"We call this chord the ninth chord (B9 for turnaround), And the reason is because it contains an extra note, its called the ninth."

Could someone explain to me what the ninth note is?

I know that quite a lot to answer in one Go, but i would really appreciate if you help me with this.

Thanks in advance smile.gif


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Frederik
post Aug 11 2009, 12:27 PM
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Its not the pentatonic scale but the major scale smile.gif in the key of A it goes : A B C# D E F# G# ... so thats why he calls it 1 4 5 , as the chords are build on top of those root notes. the major pentatonic scale is made from the major , but is leaving out the 4 and the 6 degree of the scale.
a 9th chord is a triad with to extra notes in triad intervals on top. the 9th is the degree of the scale (C#) (the same as the 2th since there are only 8 notes in the scale, then it repeats itself) the other note is the 7th (A)

dunno if this helps. hope it does to some extend. ask if u need further explanation

-Frederik
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 11 2009, 12:27 PM
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Pentatonic scale has 5 notes
but the foundation for that pentatonic is either major or minor scale.
An example, A minor scale goes like this:
A, B, C, D, E, F and G.
Those are 7 notes, A is root, B is 2nd degree, C is minor 3rd degree etc.
And A minor pentatonic scale goes like this:
A, C, D, E and G.
As you can see, some notes are missing compared to natural A minor scale.
In other words, minor pentatonic has 5 notes
and those notes are:
root, minor 3rd, perfect 4th, perfect 5th and minor 7th.
Those are degrees and intervals when you measure them
starting from root note.
Now speaking of chords, in a key of Am we would have Am (A C E) as a root chord,
Dm (D F A) as 4th degree chord and Em (E G B ) as 5th degree chords.
These chords are most simple ones called triads, made of 3 notes.
And if you look at all those notes that we have in Am, Dm and Em
you would find them all in A minor scale.

1-4-5 would be most common blues progression tho,
E, A and B chords per example,
root chord, 4th degree chord and 5th degree chord.
This is also very common in many other genres, not just blues.

And 9th note would be the same as 2nd degree but one octave higher.
Lets find it from A in a key of Am.
Scale goes like this, once more:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G (then you continue in next octaves using the same notes)
A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc.
So an Am add9 chord would be:
A (root), C (minor 3rd), E (perfect 5th) and B!
A to A is an octave (8th) and after A we have B as 9th. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Muris Varajic: Aug 11 2009, 12:35 PM


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DeepRoots
post Aug 11 2009, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"In the key of A we call the A chord for the one chord or the tonic chord, based on the first note scale.."

Does he talk about the penta scale? If I play in the key of E, would that make the E chord the one chord aswell, based on where i started the progression?


Thats right, a 12 bar blues uses the 1,4 and 5 chord in a key. If we are in the key of E, E is our one chord and the 4 and 5 chords would be relative to that. Often the chords used will all be dominant 7th chords, which theoretically dont work together but sounds great in a blues context, so the progression would use the chords E7, A7 and B7 (X7 is how you say a dominant chord with root note X)

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"When you go to the fourth note of the scale, you have a D. We call it a four chord"


But if i play the penta at the key of A, the D is the third note....?Why do you call it a four chord?
A------(5)
E ------5----8


"Then the E is right next to the D, so we call it the five chord."


Um....I dont get it....Do i measure the notes from the penta scale or what. Why is it called the the five chord? And how can it be right next to D? Dont we have flats or sharps in between?


Now this'll take a little background. This A blues is not actually based on the pentatonic scale, but the slightly longer scale it is derived from. The minor pentatonic scale is essentially a shortened version of the minor scale.

The formula for a minor scale is: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (in A this would be A B C D E F G no flats or sharps in A minor which is nice biggrin.gif )
however the trusted pentanic scale uses only five of these notes, 1 b3 4 5 b7, In A that'd be A C D E G

So now you can see that the 4 and 5 chords would be the 4th and 5th chords in the A minor scale, but the pentatonic is something that is often used to solo over it.
Like i said above in a blues context these chords (in the key of A) would be A7 D7 and E7, but this is just a bluesy way of playing it, if we were to be "strict" and take the chords out of the key of A minor "diatonically" b harmonising the scale and making chords- we would have Am Dm and Em.

ninth note, is actually the second note in the scale! the major and minor scales have 7 notes, so when we count up them 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 we can continue and say that 8 is just the root note (1) just one octave higher, 2 would be the 9! When including the 2nd or 9th in a chord we always right 9 (im not sure why!) unless we are talking about a suspended chord which is written sus2 (it is essentially a regular 1,3,5 chord but the 3 is dropped down to a 2, so it is 1,2,5- it sounds great!)

Please let me know if you'd like me to elaborate more on any of these points, theres a huge resource (where i learned all my theory from) right here at GMC, check andrew's theory board they make a great read!
In particular refernece to your questions i feel that once you have enough theoretical background to understand everything leading up to and including this artcile by Andrew https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=3630 then this kind of thing will be a piece of cake wink.gif

But looks like ive been beaten anyway lol
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Matt23
post Aug 11 2009, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
Hello! Im trying to learn some theory in blues now. Yesterday, I came across a blues theory video at youtube. Im quite new to theory so i really would like you to help me with this questions cuz they make complete no sense to me.

He sais like this (12 bar blues progression):

"In the key of A we call the A chord for the one chord or the tonic chord, based on the first note scale.."

Does he talk about the penta scale? If I play in the key of E, would that make the E chord the one chord aswell, based on where i started the progression?


Yes. In a standard 12 bar blues progression the tonic is always the first chord, so A Blues scale, the tonic would be A, B Blues scale, the tonic would be B etc.

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"When you go to the fourth note of the scale, you have a D. We call it a four chord"


But if i play the penta at the key of A, the D is the third note....?Why do you call it a four chord?
A------(5)
E ------5----8


The minor pentatonic scale, is extracted from the minor scale. If you take E minor scale for example. It has the notes E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. The E minor pentatonic has the notes E, G, A, B, D, which are all in the minor scale. The fourth it is referring to is the 4th of the minor scale that the pentatonic is extracted from, which is A. Or D in the A minor scale.

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"Then the E is right next to the D, so we call it the five chord."


Um....I dont get it....Do i measure the notes from the penta scale or what. Why is it called the the five chord? And how can it be right next to D? Dont we have flats or sharps in between?


It is the fifth for the same reason D is the fourth. E is the 5th of the A minor scale, that the pentatonic is extracted from. When they say it is right next to D, they mean in the scale. There is a D# in between, but that is not part of the pentatonic. It is however part of the blues scale. You could still say the two notes are next to each other though as they are only a tone apart.

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"And 1, 4, 5 is the foundation of what we call blues."

I guess he's reffering to the chords. But if i was playing in the key of E, Would that make it 1,4,5 or would the notes be different?


1, 4, 5 refers to the intervals of the scale on which the chords are built, so in A, since 1=A, 4=D, 5=E, the progression would be A, D, E. In C since 1=, 4=F, 5= G, the progression would be C, F, G, etc. The progession remains 1, 4, 5 though even though the notes change, as that is the intervals of the notes.

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
"We call this chord the ninth chord (B9 for turnaround), And the reason is because it contains an extra note, its called the ninth."

Could someone explain to me what the ninth note is?


Basic triads are contructed by stacking thirds. If you take the C major scale which goes C, D, E, F, G, A, B. A C major chord would be C, then a third up to E, then a third up to G. These intervlas are the 1st ©, the 3rd (E), and the 5th (G). If you continue to stack thirds then you get a 7th (cool.gif, and a 9th (D), so a B9 chord has the 1st, the 3rd, the 5th, the 7th, and the 9th. If they say "it contains an extra note, its called the ninth", they might actually be referring to a a chord which has the 1st, the 3rd, the 5th, and the 9th, but no 7th. This is a add9 chord. If that isn't it then you should also lower the 7th a semitone for a 9th chord, as although that isn't part of the major scale, it sounds more bluesy, and is the standard thing to do in this situation.

Just to clarify things.

B9: B, D#, F#, A, C#
Badd9: B, D#, F#, C#

QUOTE (Martin la guitarra @ Aug 11 2009, 12:07 PM) *
I know that quite a lot to answer in one Go, but i would really appreciate if you help me with this.

Thanks in advance smile.gif


No problem. If you have anymore questions or would like a fuller explanation of anything just ask. smile.gif
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Martin la guitar...
post Aug 11 2009, 12:45 PM
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Thank you all so much!!!!
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