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> Wrk's Mtp Thread, All assignments and uploads here
Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 06:12 PM
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Hi Andy!

This is place where I will give you assignments and upload videos. You will do the same starting tonight. Bookmark it, subscribe to it as it will be easier to follow when I post new things in!



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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 10:58 PM
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Lets get started Andy!

Here is your 1st assignment :

- Record chord progression in Phrygian mode. Root and tempo of your choice!
- Make an audio/video recording with two choruses of solo. 1st chorus soloing with chord tones, 2nd chorus soloing with tensions.
- Apply VST instruments of your choice but I would at least like to hear trio (bass drums and guitar or piano).
- Once you record backing track upload it here !
- When you record video, put it on Youtube and embed it here!

I will not put any time limit for this one Andy as you might have extra questions for me regarding chord progression and bass lines smile.gif

I do have a hint to help you make Phrygian mode cadence !

Check out this link HERE
It should help a lot!

Let me know if you need any help, I am here!

Pedja


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wrk
post Sep 4 2009, 11:08 PM
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Wao ... that sounds damn challenging and interesting !!
For sure some questions will come up, but first i will try to work out some ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great assignment Pedja smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 4 2009, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 5 2009, 12:08 AM) *
Wao ... that sounds damn challenging and interesting !!
For sure some questions will come up, but first i will try to work out some ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great assignment Pedja smile.gif


I am very glad to hear that! I will always aim to challenge you but never to discourage you with overload of information!
I choose Phrygian on purpose because I just know you never did backing for that one. Ionian or Aeolian would have been much easier I am sure... wink.gif


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wrk
post Sep 5 2009, 07:07 PM
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Hi Pedja,
Here is my backing and i wanted to check with you if this sound ok for you?

It's a loop 4x - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 = Imin7 | bIImaj7 | bVIImin7 | Imin7

Attached File  wrk_backing_E_Phrygian.mp3 ( 1.36MB ) Number of downloads: 114


Thanks !!




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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 5 2009, 07:37 PM
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Andy perfect!
Smooth Jazz sounding, love it. What VST's did you use for it?

Its time to do some improvising over that wink.gif


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wrk
post Sep 5 2009, 10:59 PM
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Great, glad you like it .. the drums are "Addictive Drums" the rest are VSTs which came with Logic and GarageBand.
I work on some improvisations now ... smile.gif






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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 5 2009, 11:13 PM
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Good Andy, show me now what you can do over this backing track, then we can expend it further and talk about approaches.


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wrk
post Sep 6 2009, 06:00 PM
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Hi Pedja,

Here is a first take over the Phrygian backing. It's a bit sloppy and i will for sure do other takes, but maybe we could use it for discussion as it is a typical solo i come up with when i jam over a backing.

Some question:
1. Does this solo sound phrygian to you? huh.gif .. should i use the b2 (F) more often, even over the Em (Imin) to add more phrygian sound to the solo?
2. Do you have any advice how i could extend the chords. I mean, are there any extensions which works well within a phrygian chord progression?
3. Just to be sure, could you just clarify for me what you mean with "soloing with tensions". I guess you mean extended chord notes, right?




Thanks !!


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 7 2009, 08:26 AM
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Andy this very well done! Let me answer your questions :

1) Solo does sound Phrygian but it also sound like you were using minor pentatonic. You did use F (characteristic note of the mode) in the very beginning so you defined the mode in listeners ear early on. You don't have to over use it, but make sure you do melodic ideas with characteristic note and you will be fine.

2) Are you talking about adding more chords to the whole mix? Since its E Phrygian, you can pretty much use any chords from C major harmony. The thing is, you need to use correct harmonic rhythm for new chords so they fit. In other words, keep the existing cadence in the end but start with E minor and add characteristic chords in the middle. What chords in C major scale contain note F? This is great starting point, work from that idea wink.gif

3) Yes, you were right. Soloing with tensions is using strictly extensions of the chord as soloing device. So E minor 7 is the chord, 7th is not a tension but b9 11 and b13 are. Question here is, can you use b9, 11 and 13 ? smile.gif


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wrk
post Sep 8 2009, 05:13 PM
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Hi Pedja,

I recorded a 2nd take .. this time a bit closer to your assignment.

loop 1-2 (tension notes only, b9, 11, 13) - sorry, i start on E, but with a slide from F wink.gif
loop 3-4 (chord notes, incl. 7th)





QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 09:26 AM) *
2) Are you talking about adding more chords to the whole mix? Since its E Phrygian, you can pretty much use any chords from C major harmony. The thing is, you need to use correct harmonic rhythm for new chords so they fit. In other words, keep the existing cadence in the end but start with E minor and add characteristic chords in the middle. What chords in C major scale contain note F? This is great starting point, work from that idea wink.gif

Beside Fmaj7 and Dm7 which are already in the progression the note F is (theoretically) in

Bm7b5 - 5th
G7 - 7th
Emb9 - 9th
Am13 - 13th
Cmaj11 - 11th

I will play around with some of these chords and try to extend or modify the backing.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 09:26 AM) *
3) Yes, you were right. Soloing with tensions is using strictly extensions of the chord as soloing device. So E minor 7 is the chord, 7th is not a tension but b9 11 and b13 are. Question here is, can you use b9, 11 and 13 ? smile.gif

I figured that the note F (b9) over Em7 does not fit at all for my ears(?). I actually had some problems to come up with idea to solo only with tensions. I will continue with this approach.

This post has been edited by wrk: Sep 8 2009, 06:45 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 8 2009, 09:58 PM
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Sounds great so far Andy!
Keep working with the tensions sound, I like how you are using them in your soloing so far. After we will move to some approach patterns and chromaticism smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 10:11 PM
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Andy how is Phrygian b9 happening ? smile.gif

I am waiting to hear your experience on expanded chords! Did you manage to use some in your backing track ? What about soloing with some of the arpeggios describing those extended chords?

Let me know if you need any tips, I think you are on a good way to discover something cool wink.gif


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wrk
post Sep 10 2009, 10:29 PM
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Actually i start to get tensed by concentrating on all these tensions ... no, not true ... laugh.gif

I worked quite a lot on different ideas, even different backings, but by now it's only a collection of licks .. thats why i didn't upload something new.

Not sure really what i expect, .. somehow i think i should discover something, but i don't know what smile.gif. Sounds stupid maybe, ... if you have any tips would be great, otherwise i just continue to play with ideas.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 10:54 PM
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Well Andy, this mode is a little bit different then any other in major scale. Main reason for this is you will see many times Phrygian being used exclusively in the song, making it a modal composition (just like you did in the original backing track). To actually use Phrygian with other modes (modulating and changing keys) takes some skill.

I can give you a suggestion which should be very useful.

Take characteristic notes of the mode (b9 and b13) and try to make melodies with them. If you are running out of ideas to make melodies using these notes, start playing arpeggios that contain one (or both) of the characteristic notes.
Ideally you want to create tension and release in your soloing, in other words don't just play tension but resolve it to E minor and equivalent sound.

I hope that makes sense Andy.

Let me know if that helps!


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wrk
post Sep 10 2009, 11:38 PM
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Thanks Pedja ... i will let you know how it goes smile.gif


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wrk
post Sep 11 2009, 11:12 AM
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Here is a 3rd take

I have modified the backing a bit and removed the ambient sound to hear the piano chords more clear.
In loop 2 and 4 i added some extensions to the chords: A(11) to Em and G(9) to Fmaj7

1 - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7
2 - Em11 | Fmaj9 | Dm7 | Em11 / Em7
3 - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7
4 - Em11 | Fmaj9 | Dm7 | Em11 / Em7

I'm not sure if i start to get feel for the phrygian mode, but at least it becomes much easier now for me to be aware of each note i play.





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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 11 2009, 11:18 AM
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Excellent Andy!
This is the real deal now. I am starting to like a lot your usage of tensions and characteristic notes. I can still in your playing hear more pentatonic based melodies but that is fine right now. I am more happy to hear F and C used in melodic context. You also did good with adding chord tensions 9 and 11, those are very useful and jazzy. If you add tension 13th somewhere in there, you will have very few if any avoid notes in soloing. Remember this is modal soloing so you have a lot more options to be dissonant then when doing other things!


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wrk
post Sep 11 2009, 11:51 AM
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Yes, melodic ideas are often based on pentatonic licks for me. I get a bit bored of this actually and i think assignments like this one will help me to develop new ideas.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 12:18 PM) *
... If you add tension 13th somewhere in there, you will have very few if any avoid notes in soloing. Remember this is modal soloing so you have a lot more options to be dissonant then when doing other things!

That was a nice hint ... i will try this, thanks !!

Should i continue with more takes around this backing and mode or do you have a follow up assignment on which i can work as well? You mentioned "approach patterns" in an earlier post. What do you mean with that?




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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 11 2009, 11:58 AM
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Approach patterns are very useful for enriching the melody and/or target note.

Lets say you want to target E note, here are some possible approach patterns

1) Below (D to E or D# to E)
2) From Above (F to E)
3) Below and above (D F to E or D# F to E)
4) Chromatic approach (D# to E or F to E)
5) Double chromatic approach (D D# to E or F# F to E)
6) Above and below (F D to E)
7) Double chromatic + above (D D# F to E)
8) Double chromatic above + double chromatic below (F# F D D# to E)
9) Combination of approaches above

This technique can be also referred to as Delayed Resolution. You are delaying resolution to your target note by using specific notes to approach it.



Try to record couple of choruses now using approach patterns I mentioned!


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