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> Caelumamittendum's Mtp Thread, All assignments and uploads here
Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 27 2009, 02:41 AM) *
You welcome Ben. I am very glad to hear you enjoy these types of assignments. I enjoy them as well. Like you said, they are very beneficial and make you become self aware of these things and how to use them.
I am hoping to get answers from you in next couple of days. If you get things wrong don't worry because I will give you a lesson on it with examples.

Thanks Ben !


100 posts in my MTP thread! (Just wanted that before going to bed! Hahaha.)

I have some ideas and have read a bit about it before, but I'm not 100 % sure I have it down correctly, but I'll write it out tomorrow smile.gif

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 27 2009, 01:52 AM


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 08:20 PM
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Alright.

From what I understand it is about borrowing chords from other modes with the same root. E.g. playing in C Ionian and then borrowing a chord from C dorian.

It could be you having a I, IV, V progression, maybe with a 7th, being Cmaj7, Fmaj7, G7. You could then extend that chord progression or change chords by adding from another C-mode. Maybe being:

| Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Dmin7, Fmaj7, B7, Emin7, Dmin7, G7 |

Ebmaj7 being borrowed from C dorian or C phrygian, and B7 being from C lydian #2 (which is...the 6th mode of E harmonic minor). You still have C ionian chords surrounding your tonic and your standard cadence of V to I in C ionian. You are just borrowing chords from modes with the same root as your starting point.

That's what I would think anyway. I'm not sure of how to notate it with numbers though:

Imaj7, (bIIImaj7), iimin7, IVmaj7, (VII7), iiimin7, iimin7, V7 ?


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 27 2009, 08:30 PM
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Very good job Ben!
You described everything pretty much. I will just mention that when we analyze modal interchange chord, we would just write above it M.I and then put in bracket what function it has bIII maj7 and such.
The example you provided is good and it uses modal interchange as passing chords. In other words we don't use modal interchange chord to modulate for longer period.

I would like you to give me chord progression that uses modal interchange to set up new key and harmony for longer period. wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 08:52 PM
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I know the chord progression probably wasn't the best overall, but it was just from the top of my head.

When using it to change keys, would that mean that the last chord in the progression would be a modally interchanged one that leads into the new key?

Could be like this maybe:

Cmaj7, G7, Fmaj7, C7 -> Fmin7, Bbmin7, Cmin7, G#7 -> C#min7...
.............From C mixolydian...........from F phrygian.......

???


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 27 2009, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 27 2009, 09:52 PM) *
I know the chord progression probably wasn't the best overall, but it was just from the top of my head.

When using it to change keys, would that mean that the last chord in the progression would be a modally interchanged one that leads into the new key?

Could be like this maybe:

Cmaj7, G7, Fmaj7, C7 -> Fmin7, Bbmin7, Cmin7, G#7 -> C#min7...
.............From C mixolydian...........from F phrygian.......

???


There are some problems with this chord progression. First of all, you have to distinguish the sound of the key/mode long enough before moving onto new one.

Cmaj7 G7 Fmaj7 = C Ionian
But then you went to C7 leading into Fmin7 .... That sounds like some sort of F minor type mode. When you later went into Bbmin7 and Cmin7 that all made it sound like F aeolian (F I Bb IV C V all minors). Then you modulated from that using G#7 or Ab7 enharmonically into C#min7...
What would you change in there?


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 09:05 PM
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Making the chord progression longer would surely make it more distinguished. Sorry for rushing it a little. Hahaha. I'll come up with a better example soon smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 27 2009, 09:13 PM
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No problem Ben, let me know when you get something together!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 09:30 PM
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I keep getting to the G7 and having "nowhere" to go but to Cmaj7, then still being in C major or going to C minor, hahaha.

My mind isn't working now it seems.

Let's try it again

Say:

Cmaj7, Fmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Cmaj7, Am7, Dmin7, B7 -> E...?

I, IV, ii, iii, I, vi, ii, (VII7) -> I (of E Ionian)...

Of course the progression before the change could be longer and having repetitions before going to the B7.





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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 27 2009, 09:34 PM
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Now you are doing great job Ben!

Remember that music happens in phrases. Usually phrases happen in 2 or 4 bars. Sections are actually 8 or 16 bars. So keep all this in mind when working with chord progressions.

Regarding G7... Remember that you can have expected resolution (up a perfect 4th to C) or down a half step (down to F#) or unexpected resolution to A minor for example.


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 27 2009, 09:46 PM
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I wasn't too sure whether I was allowed to use those kind of cadences... Hahaha. I've always considered them somewhat not as "perfect" as V to I or V to i, which is probably also a correct assumption, but to the ear they release the tension as well, which is what it is about.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 27 2009, 10:46 PM) *
I wasn't too sure whether I was allowed to use those kind of cadences... Hahaha. I've always considered them somewhat not as "perfect" as V to I or V to i, which is probably also a correct assumption, but to the ear they release the tension as well, which is what it is about.


They definitely make sense like you said. Sometimes you have to follow your ear and then seek for theory and harmony explanation for it.
I am expecting some chord progression from you, preferably with melody done in Guitar pro. Let me know when you have something for me Ben!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 28 2009, 03:24 PM
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How's this? Should I have used more 7ths? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I forgot to type in the B7 chord name, I can see now.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 28 2009, 03:18 PM
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Key_changed_with_modal_interchange.gp5 ( 10.4K ) Number of downloads: 22
 


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 28 2009, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 28 2009, 04:17 PM) *
How's this? Should I have used more 7ths? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


smile.gif

It is ok Ben but it could be done better. Couple of pointers :

1) You changed harmonic rhythm which could be great but it didn't turn out so great (for a reason)
2) Your modulation was prepared and it worked but your harmony was too many things happen at the same time in E major.

Changing harmonic rhythm is great tool when composing new sections or changing things up. This would have worked great if you used static melody vs moving harmony. It didn't work well because your melody in E major was nowhere near the one you established in C major. If you kept original motives, did some repetition in E major it would have worked even better. So idea is to carefully think of both melody and harmony when changing key. I am happy you did this example as you can already learn from it.

Take everything I said above and try to correct it wink.gif



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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 28 2009, 03:39 PM
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Better now? smile.gif
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Key_changed_with_modal_interchange_2.gp5 ( 10.02K ) Number of downloads: 23
 


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 28 2009, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 28 2009, 04:39 PM) *
Better now? smile.gif


Yes much better, perfect!

Now cool thing is B7 can lead into C maj7 because its a modal interchange chord of E harmonic minor 6th mode like you mentioned before.
Good trick here is C maj7 = E min triad with C in the bass. B7 resolves naturally to some sort of E so here instead of continuing with E major harmony you are back into E minor harmony.

Add this in the end and keep up the good work!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 28 2009, 04:13 PM
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Like this? laugh.gif

I know the melody isn't the best out there. I didn't have my guitar with me when I wrote it, so I just pretty much took it singing it out in my head and trying to get it down as good as possible, adding and putting a bit here and there.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Key_changed_with_modal_interchange_3.gp5 ( 14.95K ) Number of downloads: 20
 


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 28 2009, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 28 2009, 05:13 PM) *
Like this? laugh.gif

I know the melody isn't the best out there. I didn't have my guitar with me when I wrote it, so I just pretty much took it singing it out in my head and trying to get it down as good as possible, adding and putting a bit here and there.


Yes !

Love it smile.gif You are working non stop, I love when I see that. Great progress so far. As you said melody is not perfect smile.gif It could be better as it is too repetitive and does the same thing over and over.
Couple of suggestions for you !

- When you did G altered 2nd time through (8th bar) you could have modulated there to something different as well!
- Why don't you put a bass line, it will definitely enrich this piece?
- Why don't you use diatonic substitution more? When you have C maj7 or A min7 why not use E min7 sometimes? Why not use B min7b5 instead of G7 ? Why not create Bmin7b5 E7 and modulate to A min A maj or F maj modal interchange?
- I don't like chord symbols you use to label chords, we must talk about this!!! smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 28 2009, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 28 2009, 05:32 PM) *
Yes !

Love it smile.gif You are working non stop, I love when I see that. Great progress so far. As you said melody is not perfect smile.gif It could be better as it is too repetitive and does the same thing over and over.
Couple of suggestions for you !

- When you did G altered 2nd time through (8th bar) you could have modulated there to something different as well!


Yeah, it was just a copy/paste thingie. I could have altered it quite a bit. I would have done so had it been a "regular" composition that I would one day record and not a lesson. Sorry for that laugh.gif

QUOTE
- Why don't you put a bass line, it will definitely enrich this piece?


I just added a bass in the first two bars, but it's not something I will do right now though. It has always been quite time consuming for me to come up with a good bass line in all pieces of music. I don't just want the bass to follow the root of the chords.

QUOTE
- Why don't you use diatonic substitution more? When you have C maj7 or A min7 why not use E min7 sometimes? Why not use B min7b5 instead of G7 ? Why not create Bmin7b5 E7 and modulate to A min A maj or F maj modal interchange?


Great ideas! I was focusing too much on the key change to be honest. I will work on that when I put some time into the bass thingie as well.

QUOTE
- I don't like chord symbols you use to label chords, we must talk about this!!! smile.gif


Do you mean the E7M as an example? Actually, I would, here in GMC and wherever else I write it, write: Emaj7. I don't know why Guitar Pro has the layout in chords that it has. It has always bothered me a bit. I geuss I could just manually write it the regular way, but it's easier to just click the mouse and know both ways. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 28 2009, 04:40 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 28 2009, 04:44 PM
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Great Ben. I will put up a text for you soon with all the chord symbols. I don't have an answer why Guitar pro uses that sort of labeling. I can tell you about classes I had at Berklee with numerous professors where we covered all possible chord symbols. Idea is to make reading music as simple as possible (especially for musicians who perform unprepared things like in orchestras or sit in sessions, gigs etc). This is why we avoid E with zero and line through it but rather E min7b5 for example. It is also important to do C maj instead of CM and C min instead of Cm. This is just confusing stuff for musicians, but we will talk about it soon I promise.
Don't worry about bass line right now, we haven't covered anything for that yet. For time being use just roots. If you are "bored" with roots, use 3rds and 5ths, but I don't expect you to do a walking bass line yet. Idea is to just enrich this arrangement as much as possible.
See what you can do with modal interchange ideas I have given you. I am waiting for more uploads when you get a chance !

P.S. When we finish with modal interchange, we will get back to our main assignment wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 28 2009, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 28 2009, 05:44 PM) *
Great Ben. I will put up a text for you soon with all the chord symbols. I don't have an answer why Guitar pro uses that sort of labeling. I can tell you about classes I had at Berklee with numerous professors where we covered all possible chord symbols. Idea is to make reading music as simple as possible (especially for musicians who perform unprepared things like in orchestras or sit in sessions, gigs etc). This is why we avoid E with zero and line through it but rather E min7b5 for example. It is also important to do C maj instead of CM and C min instead of Cm. This is just confusing stuff for musicians, but we will talk about it soon I promise.
Don't worry about bass line right now, we haven't covered anything for that yet. For time being use just roots. If you are "bored" with roots, use 3rds and 5ths, but I don't expect you to do a walking bass line yet. Idea is to just enrich this arrangement as much as possible.
See what you can do with modal interchange ideas I have given you. I am waiting for more uploads when you get a chance !

P.S. When we finish with modal interchange, we will get back to our main assignment wink.gif


As said, chord symbols and such are really no problem. I know the way to write them so that they are the easiest to read, I would think. We learned that in school 5 years back or so. As said, I would never, if I were to play things with other musicians and give them sheets, write EM instead of E major. I went to a music kinda school for a year, though we didn't learn that much, this is one of the topics I remember. Many of the music teachers there and here in Denmark in general use E for E major chord and Em for E minor etc. I think that's fairly easy to understand though. If I were to specifically explain something to someone without too much knowledge of this, I would write it E major and E minor though. We also went through a bit of different ways in class: EM7, Emaj7, Emajor7, E7M. Em7, Emin7, E7m. etc etc. It all depends on the situation for me.

I don't use the chord naming feature that much in Guitar Pro in general, but I can see that you can manually name the chords Cmaj7, Dmin7 etc.

Regarding bass:
I've always like the bass lines in Alice in Chains acoustic songs. Like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3px0m1Y9Tuc&fmt=22 -
I've always considered a bass that plays a melody as well... very melodic. Sure, they land on root notes, 3rds, 5ths etc, but have a nice melody in between at places.

I will try and write some less jazzy stuff and more of my own style with modal interchange etc. if that is alright?

What is the main assignment again? laugh.gif

ADD: and regarding bass lines. I've always like having the bass play something in higher octaves than just your low brutal metal bass.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 28 2009, 05:02 PM


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