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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 9 2009, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 9 2009, 08:42 PM) *
Sorry to hijack your thread guys but I had a question for Pedja......When you say reharmonize do you mean use chord substitution??

So if I had I-IV-V progression I could reharmonize it with say a iii-ii-VII instead???

Thanks and sorry again for hijacking your thread.... smile.gif


Thanks for asking that. I actually think that is what I meant before. I see two possibilities:

1. Harmonize I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii played by another instrument.
2. Substitute I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii.

I'm still not 100% sure which one I am supposed to do.


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 9 2009, 08:37 PM
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I actually have another question...

In the following example I first wrote the Guitar part in the first four bars and I then added the synth to the same part. Moving on to the last 8 bars in the piece, I added the harmonized parts from the two next guitars. These two guitars move up in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths in each bar. First four 16th notes in 3rds, then five 16th notes in 4ths, then three in 5ths and finally four in 6ths.

What would that kind of approach be called - first writing a part and then adding that kind of harmony. Is that re-harmonization?


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 9 2009, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 9 2009, 09:09 PM) *
Thanks for asking that. I actually think that is what I meant before. I see two possibilities:

1. Harmonize I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii played by another instrument.
2. Substitute I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii.

I'm still not 100% sure which one I am supposed to do.


Ben remember you can harmonize I with III and VI note just III. Depending on what melody allows you! IV can be substituted with II so keep that in mind as well.

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 9 2009, 09:37 PM) *
I actually have another question...

In the following example I first wrote the Guitar part in the first four bars and I then added the synth to the same part. Moving on to the last 8 bars in the piece, I added the harmonized parts from the two next guitars. These two guitars move up in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths in each bar. First four 16th notes in 3rds, then five 16th notes in 4ths, then three in 5ths and finally four in 6ths.

What would that kind of approach be called - first writing a part and then adding that kind of harmony. Is that re-harmonization?


That is just guitar harmony Ben. Harmonizing melody using various interval harmonizations. Here we are talking about changing whole harmony underneath while keeping the actual melody of the piece.
I like the way you are thinking, this is good, we are moving forward a lot, love it!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 9 2009, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 9 2009, 11:41 PM) *
Ben remember you can harmonize I with III and VI note just III. Depending on what melody allows you! IV can be substituted with II so keep that in mind as well.


Yeah, of course. It was just examples. I didn't write out every possibility.


Anyway...

Do you want me to find a song (e.g. "My Heart Will go on" from Titanic) and reharmonize using for example iii chord INSTEAD of I chord (substitute I with iii or vi) or do you want me to actually harmonize the I chord using the iii chord? (or vi for that matter...)


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 9 2009, 11:48 PM) *
Yeah, of course. It was just examples. I didn't write out every possibility.


Anyway...

Do you want me to find a song (e.g. "My Heart Will go on" from Titanic) and reharmonize using for example iii chord INSTEAD of I chord (substitute I with iii or vi) or do you want me to actually harmonize the I chord using the iii chord? (or vi for that matter...)


I want you to find song and reharmonize as much as you can in it using diatonic reharmonization for tonic, subdominant and dominant chords.
You can pick "My Heart Will go on" or as I said Mariah Carey or Britney Spears songs smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 11:53 AM
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Alright, I'll have a look at it later tonight after Uni.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 01:26 PM
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Ok Ben, pick a song today and we can perhaps start working on it tonight.


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 07:24 PM
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I don't really know any pop songs, to be honest... I have found the chords to My Heart Will go on. Should I write the re-harmonization chords here?


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 10 2009, 08:24 PM) *
I don't really know any pop songs, to be honest... I have found the chords to My Heart Will go on. Should I write the re-harmonization chords here?



Okay give it a go Ben, lets see what you got smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 10:09 PM
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Intro:
C#m B A B C#m B A B

In here we already see some sort of re-harmonization from the I IV V progression, which would have been E B A. Instead we have C#m, which is the vi chord. The key is E major, and the chord progression vi, V, IV, V.

If we were to re-harmonize the C#m, which is the vi chord, we could reharmonize it with E chord, which is I or IV chord, which is A. E shares the 3rd, 5th of C#m, while A shares 1st and 3rd.

The B chord of the intro is the V and can be re-harmonized with the vii, which is Ebminb5. These two chords share the 7th degree of the E major scale, which resolves into the 1st degree and I chord, which is E. The V chord could also be reharmonized with iii-chord G#m, which shares the 1st and 3rd.

As for the IV-chord A, it could be re-harmonized using the vi-chord C#m. This chord has the 3rd and 5th of the A chord. It could also be re-harmonized using ii-chord F#m, which has the 1st and 3rd of the A chord.

-----------------------------

I hope that is some of what you wanted out of me. I don't really have much more time now, but just want to add, that it's far more interesting when adding 7ths to the chords, I think. E.g.

Dmin7 and Fmaj7.

-----------------------------

I hope I've understood a little of this correctly, otherwise please say so smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 10:16 PM
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Ben just make sure that if Root is in the melody not to reharmonize with III chord but rather with VI chord! wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 10:43 PM
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Can you explain that a bit further in a few sentences and maybe with a short example?

I mean "if root is in the melody". When you say root here, do you mean as in the key of E? Or do you mean the root of the chord (e.g. C#m)? In the latter case I would say that the root of the chord...is always in the chord?

I'm not quite sure I get what you are saying here.

If you mean root is in the melody (e.g. I IV V) as in E major in that, why can I not harmonize with iii-chord G#m? They share some notes in B and G#?

As I see it, if you're not substituting the chords, G#m adds to E major so that it becomes maj7, where as C#m makes it E6. If we were to substitute the chords this is of course somewhat irrelevant?

Oh, and another kinda cool thing:

There's a guy in my class at university, who is also a Tottenham fan, who has been teaching guitar for many years. He's also a graduate from LA Guitar Institute. He's 36 by the way, which is a bit older than me, but he is very cool. He has offered me and another guitarist from my class free guitar lessons. Hahaha. I think that's quite awesome.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 10:50 PM
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Sure thing Ben!

If you are in key of E major, and you have E in the melody and E major originally playing in the background, you should reharmonize it with C# minor (VI) instead of G# minor (III). G# minor has G# B (3 5 of E) and D# (7). Since III chord has major 7th of the key, and melody is a root, we get clashing type of sound (b6 or b13th interval in comparison from G# to E). This is why we avoid it and reharmonize with VI chord which has more stable sound if root of the I chord is in the melody. I hope that makes sense now. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Very cool to hear about GI Spurs guy smile.gif Let me know how lessons go with him wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 10 2009, 11:50 PM) *
Sure thing Ben!

If you are in key of E major, and you have E in the melody and E major originally playing in the background, you should reharmonize it with C# minor (VI) instead of G# minor (III). G# minor has G# B (3 5 of E) and D# (7). Since III chord has major 7th of the key, and melody is a root, we get clashing type of sound (b6 or b13th interval in comparison from G# to E). This is why we avoid it and reharmonize with VI chord which has more stable sound if root of the I chord is in the melody. I hope that makes sense now. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Very cool to hear about GI Spurs guy smile.gif Let me know how lessons go with him wink.gif


Oh, then I understand it. I thought you meant "melody" as in general "song" and not as "melody line with underlying chords". No problem understanding it then laugh.gif

Yeah, I'm not sure how he'll be approaching it, but we're going to bring out our guitars some day all three and jam for a bit. I haven't heard him playing, but a graduate from a guitar school can't be all that bad smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 10 2009, 11:52 PM) *
Oh, then I understand it. I thought you meant "melody" as in general "song" and not as "melody line with underlying chords". No problem understanding it then laugh.gif

Yeah, I'm not sure how he'll be approaching it, but we're going to bring out our guitars some day all three and jam for a bit. I haven't heard him playing, but a graduate from a guitar school can't be all that bad smile.gif


Awesome!
You guys will have a blast, watch a Spurs game before and after jamming smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 11:00 PM
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Am I done with the assignment or do you want me to correct or do something else besides that?

By the way, even though you say there's a clash between notes in the above example, it could theoretically be used anyway (freedom of being creative). And I geuss the clash would sound less clash-y if the E note was played an octave or more above the G#m?


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 11 2009, 12:00 AM) *
Am I done with the assignment or do you want me to correct or do something else besides that?

By the way, even though you say there's a clash between notes in the above example, it could theoretically be used anyway (freedom of being creative). And I geuss the clash would sound less clash-y if the E note was played an octave or more above the G#m?


You are not done yet smile.gif
I want you to lay out the arrangement for the song and put original harmony once through then do your reharmonization. Melody should always stay the same no matter what!
It is ok to use G# minor with E as the melody note but that works when E is passing note (eight note value or so).
Between VI and III, VI chord is more tonic stable chord because it contains actual root of the chord in it!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 11:04 PM
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I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you want me to record the chord progression and then record the re-harmonization as well?


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 10 2009, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 11 2009, 12:04 AM) *
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you want me to record the chord progression and then record the re-harmonization as well?


I was thinking more of doing it in Guitar pro because you are very good at that. If you feel like recording it, go ahead, it can only benefit you !


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 10 2009, 11:07 PM
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I don't even know the melody line of My heart will go on. Hahahaha. But I'll have a look at it anyway smile.gif

EDIT:

I think this is some of what is going on. I'm just gonna try and do some re-harmonization quickly and then I'm off smile.gif

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 10 2009, 11:22 PM
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