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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 12 2009, 11:12 PM
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I'm having a difficult time actually doing it on this specific song.

In "round 1" (with original chords) in the melody line just before we arrive back at I-chord C#m, we have a B note lasting for a half note. That kind of blocks for a G#7.

I did however use it in my collaboration, I think, where the progression was something along the line of Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bmadd*coughcough*, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 and then repeat it all.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 13 2009, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 13 2009, 12:12 AM) *
I'm having a difficult time actually doing it on this specific song.

In "round 1" (with original chords) in the melody line just before we arrive back at I-chord C#m, we have a B note lasting for a half note. That kind of blocks for a G#7.

I did however use it in my collaboration, I think, where the progression was something along the line of Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bmadd*coughcough*, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 and then repeat it all.


Have you considered making it G#7#9 ? Melodic minor 7th degree chord, key of A melodic minor?


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 13 2009, 12:06 PM
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I have not considered that, but doesn't it still have the C in it from it's regular G# major? Or should I "skip" the 3rd then, which then means no major feel to it? And that third would also be the lead note, I geuss.

See, my problem is that we have a B in the melody line, which blocks what I would say is the leading note C into C#m.

As I see it, there will always be a clash between the B in the melody line and the C in whatever G# dominant chord we use?

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 13 2009, 12:03 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 13 2009, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 13 2009, 01:06 PM) *
I have not considered that, but doesn't it still have the C in it from it's regular G# major? Or should I "skip" the 3rd then, which then means no major feel to it? And that third would also be the lead note, I geuss.

See, my problem is that we have a B in the melody line, which blocks what I would say is the leading note C into C#m.

As I see it, there will always be a clash between the B in the melody line and the C in whatever G# dominant chord we use?


Good questions Ben!
The beauty about secondary dominant chords is they actually allow you to have those types of tensions. All you have to consider is :

1) Relate dominant chord to the target key of approach chord
2) Add tensions to dominant chord to fit the arrangement

First case is, C# minor comes from E major or A major or B major. So now if you have G#7 chord in any of these 3 keys, what would the chord scale for G#7 (notes of that scale starting from G#) look like? Remember, you have to alter notes to keep the chord tones 1 3 5 b7 in each of 3 keys.

Second case is rather easier... G#7 has B# or C (enharmonically) but in melody we have a B note. This note by definition is minor 3rd or b3, but up and octave this becomes #9 tension. On major and minor chords this tension is not that great, but for dominant 7th chords it could work great!
So try voicing from bottom to top going like G# F# C D#(or E as #5 or b13) and B on top.
Strings are 6th 4th 3rd 2nd and 1st. Very jazzy voicing. Try it out!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 13 2009, 12:42 PM
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My main problem is that unless I move the chord up to higher positions on the neck, there will be a class between the B and C, as the latter will be right above the B, as they are both in the same octave, if I play it 4th position.

I'm not really sure how to go about doing it, unless it's just to be a swift visit at the C.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 13 2009, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 13 2009, 01:42 PM) *
My main problem is that unless I move the chord up to higher positions on the neck, there will be a class between the B and C, as the latter will be right above the B, as they are both in the same octave, if I play it 4th position.

I'm not really sure how to go about doing it, unless it's just to be a swift visit at the C.


Upload guitar pro with voicings and lets hear how it sounds. I am not sure I can help you like this now smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 13 2009, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 13 2009, 01:44 PM) *
Upload guitar pro with voicings and lets hear how it sounds. I am not sure I can help you like this now smile.gif


If I arpeggiated the chord it sounded kinda weird, so I did it this way:

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Sep 13 2009, 12:48 PM
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Attached File  G__ified.gp5 ( 9.88K ) Number of downloads: 21
 


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 13 2009, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 13 2009, 01:47 PM) *
If I arpeggiated the chord it sounded kinda weird, so I did it this way:


The problem is melody is in the middle! If melody is in the higher range then actual chord voicing, then it would be doable!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 13 2009, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 13 2009, 02:19 PM) *
The problem is melody is in the middle! If melody is in the higher range then actual chord voicing, then it would be doable!


Yeah, exactly. That was really what I was trying to say. laugh.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 13 2009, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 13 2009, 02:19 PM) *
Yeah, exactly. That was really what I was trying to say. laugh.gif


You could do that same voicing but in some other midi editor, or to drop it down an octave with some transposition tool wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2009, 12:43 AM
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What's next Pedja, where do I go from here? I fully understand and appreciate the alteration to dominant 7 and its functions. I could move the melody up and just actually write it out, but I must admit that I don't really see the "lesson" in that, rather than the fact that it adds some experience of doing so.


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 14 2009, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 14 2009, 01:43 AM) *
What's next Pedja, where do I go from here? I fully understand and appreciate the alteration to dominant 7 and its functions. I could move the melody up and just actually write it out, but I must admit that I don't really see the "lesson" in that, rather than the fact that it adds some experience of doing so.


The purpose of this assignment is to teach you new reharmonizing technique. You already learned over one famous tune how to do diatonic reharmonization. If I wanted to be very strict, I could ask you to do it over at least 4 more different tunes to make sure you got it all right. Since I have only 3 months for each MTP student for starters, I am trying to cover as much new topics with you as possible. This particular I am trying to get you to do is secondary dominant chords. They are extremely useful in music and are great to set up new modes, modulation or simply resolve unexpectedly. Basically, I am trying to build your reharmonization composing arranging songwriting technique from diatonic reharmonization with some secondary dominants. Later on we will do modal interchange, II V I's, constant structure, cadences, modal harmony etc.
Hope all this makes sense. I do have plan for you, don't want you to think I am just randomly giving you things out. It may appear like we are just talking things out, but I prefer to work in that sort of atmosphere with you as I know it relaxes you and you do assignments well.



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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2009, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 14 2009, 02:04 AM) *
The purpose of this assignment is to teach you new reharmonizing technique. You already learned over one famous tune how to do diatonic reharmonization. If I wanted to be very strict, I could ask you to do it over at least 4 more different tunes to make sure you got it all right. Since I have only 3 months for each MTP student for starters, I am trying to cover as much new topics with you as possible. This particular I am trying to get you to do is secondary dominant chords. They are extremely useful in music and are great to set up new modes, modulation or simply resolve unexpectedly. Basically, I am trying to build your reharmonization composing arranging songwriting technique from diatonic reharmonization with some secondary dominants. Later on we will do modal interchange, II V I's, constant structure, cadences, modal harmony etc.
Hope all this makes sense. I do have plan for you, don't want you to think I am just randomly giving you things out. It may appear like we are just talking things out, but I prefer to work in that sort of atmosphere with you as I know it relaxes you and you do assignments well.


Yeah, I wasn't intending to say it like it probably sounded. Hahaha.

I can definately see a red line through just these two things you just shown me. I can also definately see the meaning of dominant chords. Could you explain to my why there has been put a "secondary" into "secondary dominant chords"?

For me it's just a matter of realizing that the "technique" and theory is there, then it's a matter of using it in my own songwriting. As said, I've already used the dominant function before, I think. In the Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bm, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 progression.

Since we've only got three months, I don't want to dwell too long on a topic that I feel I understand. I definately get the use of dominant chords as you were showing me with this example, the problem was only that the melody line was in the same octave. Once I moved the melody line up an octave, there was no problem at all. I don't think I saved the file though.

As said, we have 3 months, and all of these things I know now I can gradually use more and more in my own writing, so I don't want to dwell too long on topics that I understand anyway. I can create my own examples and work with these things in my own writing outside of the MTP as well and after the MTP.

I hope that makes sense, as I wrote it pretty quickly smile.gif

I'm eager to learn lots of new things, and especially these writing techniques and terms (secondary dominant chords, reharmonization). Some I might have used before but haven't been 100% aware of. Being aware of it helps a whole lot and adds a new dimension to ones writing, instead of just doing it because it felt like a good idea. Now I can do it because I know how to use it smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 14 2009, 01:32 AM
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This is great to hear Ben. I like your response a lot smile.gif

Just to be clear, I mentioned a 3 month period because that was initial idea - everybody should get a chance to study with instructor of their choice. Now as you see, I have 17 of you guys, so they let me have you all smile.gif This idea was there when we were supposed to have maximum of 5 students! My point is, I think even after 3 months period we will continue to work together, if you apply and want to stay with me smile.gif

With all that being said, I will go a little bit more into Secondary Dominant theory as you haven't used it yet (not from the example you mentioned anyway).

Ok, in major scale, where do we have dominant chord, on which scale degree?
Dominant chord is always on 5th scale degree in any major scale!
What about harmonic and melodic minor? Again, on 5th scale degree!
What about natural minor? On b7th (or minor 7th) scale degree!
What do these dominant chords on 5th scale resolve to!? Mostly (more then 99%) to I chord!
So we get G7 to C major or G7 to C minor or G7 to A minor etc.

Now here is a cool thing... All these dominant chords I just mentioned already exist in the scales above naturally. We didn't have to raise or lower any notes of the scale, they are there simply because they belong there.
With secondary dominant chords, we create dominant chords for all the other scales degree's but the ones where we have unstable chord (diminished or min7b5 chord!).
We create secondary dominant chord by taking certain scale degree, going up a perfect 5th from it and making it a dominant chord. That dominant chord now resolves to that scale degree and is called secondary dominant chord. Why secondary ? Because primary dominant chord is the one that already exist within the actual scale (V scale degree!).

Here is example of C major chords and their secondary dominant chords.

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C maj D min E min F maj (G7) A min B dim C maj

Secondary dominants for scale degrees above

V7 V7/II V7/III V7/IV V7/V V7/VI
*G7 A7 B7 C7 D7 E7

*primary dominant!



I hope this theory and harmony information I just gave you clears a lot of things.

Let me know if you have any questions!

This post has been edited by Pedja Simovic: Sep 14 2009, 09:01 AM
Reason for edit: typo


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2009, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 14 2009, 02:32 AM) *
This is great to hear Ben. I like your response a lot smile.gif

Just to be clear, I mentioned a 3 month period because that was initial idea - everybody should get a chance to study with instructor of their choice. Now as you see, I have 17 of you guys, so they let me have you all smile.gif This idea was there when we were supposed to have maximum of 5 students! My point is, I think even after 3 months period we will continue to work together, if you apply and want to stay with me smile.gif

With all that being said, I will go a little bit more into Secondary Dominant theory as you haven't used it yet (not from the example you mentioned anyway).

Ok, in major scale, where do we have dominant chord, on which scale degree?
Dominant chord is always on 5th scale degree in any major scale!
What about harmonic and melodic minor? Again, on 5th scale degree!
What about natural minor? On b7th (or minor 7th) scale degree!
What do these dominant chords on 5th scale resolve to!? Mostly (more then 99%) to I chord!
So we get G7 to C major or G7 to C minor or G7 to A minor etc.

Now here is a cool thing... All these dominant chords I just mentioned already exist in the scales above naturally. We didn't have to raise or lower any notes of the scale, they are there simply because they belong there.
With secondary dominant chords, we create dominant chords for all the other scales degree's but the ones where we have unstable chord (diminished or min7b5 chord!).
We create secondary dominant chord by taking certain scale degree, going up a perfect 5th from it and making it a dominant chord. That dominant chord now resolves to that scale degree and is called secondary dominant chord. Why secondary ? Because primary dominant chord is the one that already exist within the actual scale (V scale degree!).

Here is example of C major chords and their secondary dominant chords.

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C maj D min E min F maj (G7) A min B dim C maj

Secondary dominants for scale degrees above

V7 V7/II V7/III V7/IV V7/V V7/VI
*G7 A7 B7 C7 D7 E7
V7/II
primary
dominant!



I hope this theory and harmony information I just gave you clears a lot of things.

Let me know if you have any questions!


It definately makes sense, Pedja. Thanks for elaborating on it. I was just a bit confused about that "secondary" thing. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 14 2009, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 14 2009, 02:36 AM) *
It definately makes sense, Pedja. Thanks for elaborating on it. I was just a bit confused about that "secondary" thing. smile.gif


Awesome Ben!

One thing that goes without saying is, for every secondary dominant chord, we had to change some original notes from the scale!

So V7 of II or V7/II in C major is A7 because it resolves to D minor or D minor 7 chord. Now A7 has A C# E G ! So from the original scale we had to raise the root of the scale !
Keep that in mind always, this is why secondary dominant harmony opens a lot of possibilities for reharmonization wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2009, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 14 2009, 02:40 AM) *
Awesome Ben!

One thing that goes without saying is, for every secondary dominant chord, we had to change some original notes from the scale!

So V7 of II or V7/II in C major is A7 because it resolves to D minor or D minor 7 chord. Now A7 has A C# E G ! So from the original scale we had to raise the root of the scale !
Keep that in mind always, this is why secondary dominant harmony opens a lot of possibilities for reharmonization wink.gif


Yeah, I totally see the purpose of that smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2009, 11:39 PM
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How's it going, Pedja? Are you able to keep track of all us eager for learning guitarists at GMC? smile.gif

I do not have work the next two days, but I have a lot of catching up to do at University (I haven't really been studying at all laugh.gif), so I'll have to find time for that too, but I also will have time for some MTPing.

That said, I liked the lessons I've had so far. They were very valuable, yet easy to access and approach and gain from. They didn't take days to practice etc., but immediately gave me new tools for my composing. Actually, lesson might be a wrong word - assignment would be better smile.gif



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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 15 2009, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 15 2009, 12:39 AM) *
How's it going, Pedja? Are you able to keep track of all us eager for learning guitarists at GMC? smile.gif

I do not have work the next two days, but I have a lot of catching up to do at University (I haven't really been studying at all laugh.gif), so I'll have to find time for that too, but I also will have time for some MTPing.

That said, I liked the lessons I've had so far. They were very valuable, yet easy to access and approach and gain from. They didn't take days to practice etc., but immediately gave me new tools for my composing. Actually, lesson might be a wrong word - assignment would be better smile.gif


It is going great so far Ben. One week since MTP started and I am happy to see progress with most students.

Were you able to do something with secondary dominant chords in Titanic song?

Would you like another assignment, new song and new applications?

Let me know!


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 15 2009, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 15 2009, 11:04 AM) *
It is going great so far Ben. One week since MTP started and I am happy to see progress with most students.

Were you able to do something with secondary dominant chords in Titanic song?

Would you like another assignment, new song and new applications?

Let me know!


Yeah, after I raised the melody to the octave above, it wasn't that big a problem. It had a very different feel to it than the original tune in a very jazzy way. I could've written more and made key changes within though. I didn't do that, but I didn't save the file for some reason.

I wouldn't mind some new applications, assignments etc smile.gif

By the way, I just tried a few things in the GP file. They may not have been all too succesful, and I may have overdone it using it 3 times withing 16 bars, but still! laugh.gif
Attached File(s)
Attached File  G__ified.gp5 ( 10.03K ) Number of downloads: 24
 


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