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> Question About Modes, Question about modes
Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 12:33 AM
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Have a question about modes. Hopefully I am correct in my understanding that to play D Aeolian you would play the F Major Scale. To play D Phrygian you would play Bb Major Scale. And D Dorian would be the C Major Scale.

My question is when you play these scales to get the correct sound you start on the D note or use D as your root. So as an example for D phrygian you use the Bb Major Scale but you start and end on the D note or use it as the root to get the proper effect when playing it over say a Dm Chord.

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----------------5------7-----
----------------5------7--8--
----------------5--6------8--
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Sorry for my crude example of the scale but that would basically go from D on the A string to D on the G String in the Bb Major scale. I hope this is correct because I feel like I am finally getting this. So I am feeling pretty good about knowing which scale to use for each mode. But like I said before I think I was using the wrong root note so the effect of that mode was lost.



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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 12:37 AM
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I am repeating myself biggrin.gif
but try to look D Phrygian as D minor scale with flat 2nd,
which would be Eb note instead of E.
It's much more efficient since you're actually playing
focusing on that Dm chord which IS your root
while pointing at flat 2nd which IS flavor of Phrygian.
Forget about Bb major scale here, my opinion. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Sep 5 2009, 06:37 PM) *
I am repeating myself biggrin.gif
but try to look D Phrygian as D minor scale with flat 2nd,
which would be Eb note instead of E.
It's much more efficient since you're actually playing
focusing on that Dm chord which IS your root
while pointing at flat 2nd which IS flavor of Phrygian.
Forget about Bb major scale here, my opinion. smile.gif


Ok... I will study my material and try and figure out why D minor works better. Was I correct to use F scale for D Aeolian and C Scale for Dorian. And if so do I start and end on D to get the desired effect?



This post has been edited by Fingerspasm: Sep 6 2009, 12:48 AM


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Emir Hot
post Sep 6 2009, 12:46 AM
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Muris is right. Even though F major is the same as D aeolian you should be really thinking D minor if you're in that chord, forget about F. That way you will build your melody arround D root which should be your goal. Thinking of F will just confuse you.


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Sep 6 2009, 01:46 AM) *
Muris is right. Even though F major is the same as D aeolian you should be really thinking D minor if you're in that chord, forget about F. That way you will build your melody arround D root which should be your goal. Thinking of F will just confuse you.

Exactly, you have to be careful with all relatives. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 12:51 AM
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I think I understand what you are saying. I was figuring this out by using the circle of fifths. To put Dm in the iii position you would have Bb in the I position. So thats why I was saying Bb to make it work in the circle of fifths.

This post has been edited by Fingerspasm: Sep 6 2009, 12:53 AM


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Sep 6 2009, 01:51 AM) *
I think I understand what you are saying. I was figuring this out by using the circle of fifths. To put Dm in the iii position you would have Bb in the I position.

Positions are also relative thing when you start improvising all over the neck,
they all blend together.
Root is the key, it always is. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Sep 5 2009, 06:53 PM) *
Positions are also relative thing when you start improvising all over the neck,
they all blend together.
Root is the key, it always is. smile.gif


So root is the key. I understand. Then would it be the root and the intervals that you use from the root position that give you the sound of the mode?


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Emir Hot
post Sep 6 2009, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Sep 6 2009, 12:56 AM) *
So root is the key. I understand. Then would it be the root and the intervals that you use from the root position that give you the sound of the mode?

Yes smile.gif If the root is D minor then you play D minor, not F major.


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Sep 6 2009, 01:56 AM) *
So root is the key. I understand. Then would it be the root and the intervals that you use from the root position that give you the sound of the mode?

Spot on!!

Dorian : Minor scale with sharp (or major) 6th
Phrygian : Minor scale with flat (or minor) 2nd
Lydian : Major scale with sharp (or augmented) 4th
Mixolydian : Major scale with flat (or minor) 7th

Ionian is the same as major, Aeolian is the same as minor
and you don't have to bother with Locrian atm
tho it would be : Minor scale with flat ( or diminished) 5th and flat (or minor) 2nd.

There you go. smile.gif

With these formulas you can try to make all those modes staring from the same note,
let's say C note and see how they sounds one after another.
For Mixolyidian and Lydian you have major chord as root
while there's a minor chord as root for Phrygian and Dorian,
just as the formula says, you alter eaither major or minor scale with one note and you get new mode.

This post has been edited by Muris Varajic: Sep 6 2009, 01:03 AM


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 6 2009, 08:29 AM
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I think you are confusing things because you are paying too much attention to relative major scale. Try to learn formula for all the modes and treat them as scale itself. Relating to major scale is just 1st step and it helps to figure out patterns on guitar neck. After 1st step you need to focus on the mode itself and harmony it provides.
I have something for you to read that you might find useful regarding modes and cadences.

Cadences


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sted
post Sep 6 2009, 11:10 AM
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I see all the heavyweight instructors have chimed in here with brilliant answers! From the perspective of someone going through exactly the same thing mate check out pitch axis theory, modes kind of clicked when I saw this being explained, it helps me if I am practising in the key of E say to hit the low E string and then play the different modes over that note (Search Satriani on modes on YT to see what I mean), because it is the root you can really hear the subtle difference of each mode heard over the root note, hope that makes sense!
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Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 6 2009, 02:29 AM) *
I think you are confusing things because you are paying too much attention to relative major scale. Try to learn formula for all the modes and treat them as scale itself. Relating to major scale is just 1st step and it helps to figure out patterns on guitar neck. After 1st step you need to focus on the mode itself and harmony it provides.
I have something for you to read that you might find useful regarding modes and cadences.

Cadences


Thanks for the information. I will try and go over it today. After spending a couple of hours on the answers I received earlier. I now understand the method they were using to give me my answer. The method that I was using was with the circle of Fifths and how you can figure everything out by applying the information to the circle and using it to figure out Chord progressions the Key and the mode and if its Major or Minor etc. I am starting to understand that there is more than one way to come up with the correct answer when it comes to breaking things down. I can see where you might want to make it easier as you learn more and associate things in a different manner as you learn more. Right now I can figure it out using the circle of fifths. But I am now learning how Bb Major is also the same scale as D aeolian its just a matter of the root and the intervals from the root using those scales. They are also give different position designations for instance the V position in Bb is the same as the III position in D aeolian.
In the last week I have had many things come together in my understanding the modes and scales and I am surprised at how excited I have become about being able to see all of it on the neck and apply it. For the last 4 years I have been guessing and using limited knowledge and scales to play with. Now I feel like a whole new exciting world has been opened up. Now I have doubled my efforts at learning all the notes on the neck of the guitar so this information will be easier to use. smile.gif

QUOTE (sted @ Sep 6 2009, 05:10 AM) *
I see all the heavyweight instructors have chimed in here with brilliant answers! From the perspective of someone going through exactly the same thing mate check out pitch axis theory, modes kind of clicked when I saw this being explained, it helps me if I am practising in the key of E say to hit the low E string and then play the different modes over that note (Search Satriani on modes on YT to see what I mean), because it is the root you can really hear the subtle difference of each mode heard over the root note, hope that makes sense!


Yes I have been doing that also the last couple of days. Playing the Chord and then playing different modes over the chord. I have now actually recorded the chord with a drum beat and I loop it and then play the modes that way. Its really cool. I will check out the Axis theory. I have the Tab book from Hal Leonard for the Surfing with an Alien Songs and in that book they explain the axis theory. I will have to read it again now that I am starting to understand this stuff a little better. smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 01:26 PM
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I'm glad to hear you're exploring scales and everything
but just a tiny correction, Bb major scale is not the same as D Aeolian(or minor),
its relative minor would be G minor or G Aeolian.
I guess it was probably just a typo since you already
related D Phrygian with Bb major. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Sep 6 2009, 01:37 PM
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Ahh yes you are correct. Sometimes its hard to keep it straight. Repetition seems to be the key. Thanks for helping to keep me on track. smile.gif

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Sep 6 2009, 07:26 AM) *
I'm glad to hear you're exploring scales and everything
but just a tiny correction, Bb major scale is not the same as D Aeolian(or minor),
its relative minor would be G minor or G Aeolian.
I guess it was probably just a typo since you already
related D Phrygian with Bb major. smile.gif




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Muris Varajic
post Sep 6 2009, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Sep 6 2009, 02:37 PM) *
Ahh yes you are correct. Sometimes its hard to keep it straight. Repetition seems to be the key. Thanks for helping to keep me on track. smile.gif

No problem at all, keep learning AND playing everything in practice
which is crucial in understanding theory. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 8 2009, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Sep 6 2009, 01:41 PM) *
Thanks for the information. I will try and go over it today. After spending a couple of hours on the answers I received earlier. I now understand the method they were using to give me my answer. The method that I was using was with the circle of Fifths and how you can figure everything out by applying the information to the circle and using it to figure out Chord progressions the Key and the mode and if its Major or Minor etc. I am starting to understand that there is more than one way to come up with the correct answer when it comes to breaking things down. I can see where you might want to make it easier as you learn more and associate things in a different manner as you learn more. Right now I can figure it out using the circle of fifths. But I am now learning how Bb Major is also the same scale as D aeolian its just a matter of the root and the intervals from the root using those scales. They are also give different position designations for instance the V position in Bb is the same as the III position in D aeolian.
In the last week I have had many things come together in my understanding the modes and scales and I am surprised at how excited I have become about being able to see all of it on the neck and apply it. For the last 4 years I have been guessing and using limited knowledge and scales to play with. Now I feel like a whole new exciting world has been opened up. Now I have doubled my efforts at learning all the notes on the neck of the guitar so this information will be easier to use. smile.gif



This is excellent to hear !
Stop by my board and ask any theory and harmony questions, I will be happy to help you out man. One more thing, like Muris mentioned Bb major scale (Ionian) is related to D Phrygian not Aeolian (Aeolian is down a min 3rd from Ionian so you get G Aeolian).



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David Wallimann
post Sep 8 2009, 11:47 PM
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I recorded a little lesson on the subject a while back...
This is the 2nd of a series, but it might help!




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