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> Altered Dominant Bb7 ?, Don't quite understand
djohnneay
post Sep 13 2009, 04:25 PM
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Hey guys,

I don't know if this is the right place for this topic, but here goes :

Lately I've been busy learning the A minor harmonic minor. As I understand, this scale has 6 relative modes, B locrian #6, C ionian #5, D dorian #4, E phrygian dominant, F lydian #9, and G# altered dominant bb7. As it is, I understand that each mode has another note sharpened, this being the sixth in locrian, the fifth in ionian, the fourth in dorian, the third in phrygian and the second (or ninth) in lydian. If I understand correctly, the harmonic modes are not used for constructing full songs, but only partial in songs, over whichever chords fits that scale. So for example, you're playing a song in A minor, and then in your solo you'd kick in your wah-wah pedal and play an alternate picking run in A harmonic minor.

That should work for every scale if I'm right, EXCEPT G# altered dominant bb7. Because of the sharpened 7th in harmonic minor, the mixolydian mode has an sharpened root note. I don't really understand if that is even possible, or how I should see it, because the scale formula would be 1212213. My question is actually, where would you use this kind of scale ?

Hopefully you get what I mean, and can help me with this as I'm confused about this.


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Emir Hot
post Sep 13 2009, 05:36 PM
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Are you talking about the last mone of Harmonic Minor?

Here they are in order:

1) Aeolian #7 (Harmonic Minor) - A B C D E F G# - AmMaj7(b6)
2) Locrian #6 - B C D E F G# A - Bm7b5
3) Ionian #5 - C D E F G# A B - Cmaj7#5
4) Dorian #4 - D E F G# A B C - Dm7(#11)
5) Phrygian #3 (Phrygian Dominant) - E F G# A B C D - E7(b9,b13)
6) Lydian #2 - F G# A B C D E - Fmaj7(#9)
7) Mixolydian #1 (Diminished) - G# A B C D E F - G#dim7

the last one people also call - Altered Dominant bb7

If you harmonize that last scale into 4 note chords you would end up with diminished 7 arpeggio which can effectively be used over the V chord or you can play this full scale over Dim7 chord if you are in the VII chord.


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djohnneay
post Sep 13 2009, 06:38 PM
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Allright I get that, but what I meant was that I don't really get what the related scale in question would be.
When for example being in A aeolian #7, the scale closely related to that would be A aeolian, the natural minor scale.
So that if I would be to take over your list, they would be as followed :


1) A Aeolian #7 - A Aeolian
2) B Locrian #6 - B Locrian
3) C Ionian #5 - C Ionian
4) D Dorian #4 - D Dorian
5) E Phrygian #3 - E Phrygian
6) F Lydian #2 - F Lydian
7) G# Mixolydian #1 - ???

All of the harmonic minor modes are different from the original modes by 1 semitone. However in case Mixolydian #1 it is the root note that is sharpened, so you could say that they have the same notes except for one, but their scale formulas are so very different. When changing scale, you would be automatically changing key.

I hope this all makes at least some sense, or maybe I'm just overthinking it.


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Emir Hot
post Sep 13 2009, 06:53 PM
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I didn't really get what the question is about. These names are derived from normal major scale modes. You will find many different names for Harmonic and Melodic minor modes as they are not standardized. Only major scale modes are always named the same. Don't get confused about names. For example if you want to call something mixolydian there must be major 3rd and b7th in the formula. Otherwise that's nothing to do with mixolydian. In Harmonic minor chord progression you can use the same principle as for normal major scale modes. If your chords are II, V, I (m7b5, 7(b9), mMaj7) you can use 2nd mode, 5th mode and the 1st mode to play over such progression.


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djohnneay
post Sep 13 2009, 08:58 PM
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Well, I'm trying to compare the harmonic modes to the normal major scale modes, but that seems to be impossible for the Mixolydian #1 mode, because it doesn't show any resemblence to the normal Mixolydian mode, and starts on a different note. Because of that I feel there is a dent in music theory somewhere, that I'm trying to solve (and very much not succeeding).

I've been thinking about this thing for a week now, and just can't figure it out. Maybe I should just let it go, just assume they are incomparable, and follow my ear.


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 13 2009, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (djohnneay @ Sep 13 2009, 09:58 PM) *
Well, I'm trying to compare the harmonic modes to the normal major scale modes, but that seems to be impossible for the Mixolydian #1 mode, because it doesn't show any resemblence to the normal Mixolydian mode, and starts on a different note. Because of that I feel there is a dent in music theory somewhere, that I'm trying to solve (and very much not succeeding).

I've been thinking about this thing for a week now, and just can't figure it out. Maybe I should just let it go, just assume they are incomparable, and follow my ear.


Yeah, this Mixo #1 is hard to compare with anything, more or less!
But more closest bet is Mixolydian after all,
the nonsense here tho is that root is not the same
and we usually use the same root when we compare scales/modes.

But this mode is also rarely in use, not to say never in use.
And when I think of "use" I think of a mode as a tonal center, root or whatever.
From those 7 modes of Harmonic Minor you can actually meet only 3 in practice as ROOTS,
Aeolian #7 which is Harmonic Minor, next one is Dorian #4 and finally Phrygian Dominant of course.


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Emir Hot
post Sep 13 2009, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Sep 13 2009, 09:08 PM) *
Aeolian #7 which is Harmonic Minor, next one is Dorian #4 and finally Phrygian Dominant of course.

Those 3 are my favorite ones smile.gif Sevdah rules!!!


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 13 2009, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Sep 13 2009, 10:20 PM) *
Those 3 are my favorite ones smile.gif Sevdah rules!!!


Hehehehe biggrin.gif


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djohnneay
post Sep 13 2009, 10:54 PM
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So because it's a diminished scale, it has most in common with minor scales, correct ?

As I see it now, third and fifth are the most important intervals for choosing scales and chords, and the rest of the intervals er almost equally important (except for 2nd maybe, as seen in Phrygian modes). That would be what determines the sound, and the rest of it I should figure out by ear ?


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Emir Hot
post Sep 13 2009, 11:05 PM
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3rd is the most important. That tells you whether the chord is minor or major. 5th is usually not played in 7th or 9th chords, it doesn't give anything to the chord. If you have b5 or #5 that's something different. Also the 7th interval is very important. If it's b7 then it's a dominant interval (if you have maj3dr), if it's normal 7th then you need to call the chord maj7.


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djohnneay
post Sep 14 2009, 07:58 PM
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Thanks for the replies. It seems that I have to delve into chords a lot more, instead of only focusing on scales. I always assumed that I could make the chords if I knew the scales, but the rules seem to be a bit different, hence my confusion.


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Staffy
post Sep 14 2009, 08:11 PM
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I will say that the melodic minor is far more useful, at least if you are playing jazz.... which gives a lot of nice sounds in ii-v-1 for example....

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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 14 2009, 08:34 PM
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I have posted before on forums about harmonic minor scale and all its modes. Will try to find them and pass you a link, a lot of info to read but useful smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Sep 14 2009, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (djohnneay @ Sep 14 2009, 07:58 PM) *
Thanks for the replies. It seems that I have to delve into chords a lot more, instead of only focusing on scales. I always assumed that I could make the chords if I knew the scales, but the rules seem to be a bit different, hence my confusion.

Yes you can make the chords if you know the scales. You can't make the chord without the scale smile.gif You should focus on both chords and scales as that's equally important.


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 15 2009, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Sep 15 2009, 12:41 AM) *
You should focus on both chords and scales as that's equally important.


Those 2 work together, agree. smile.gif


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djohnneay
post Sep 15 2009, 04:15 PM
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Yeah that's what I meant. I know E minor (G major) and A minor (C major) all over fretboard, but most of the time I play with a fair amount of distortion so only play power chords over that scale, because those are easy to make (root + fifth) and always sound good. But now that I've started with Harmonic Minor I felt like I was missing something. I thought it was because I didn't understand Mixolydian #1 mode, but now know that it's chords I'm lacking. I guess that's also the reason my improvise chord progressions never sounded very good.

And Pedja, it would be great if you could post some links to that, I'm always in for more theory learning smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Sep 15 2009, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (djohnneay @ Sep 15 2009, 05:15 PM) *
And Pedja, it would be great if you could post some links to that, I'm always in for more theory learning smile.gif



Here you go man !

LINK

Let me know if you got any questions!


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djohnneay
post Sep 17 2009, 04:14 PM
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Hmmm, deja vu moment or I've been reading that post already.

Good one though, gonna bookmark it smile.gif No questions for now, but if they come, I'll let you know.


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