Rec Announcement, Rules and Grading Process Options

[Keilnoth]

Hey guys,

After my first failure with the new REC model , something came to me. I think that having 10 grades is completely pointless if the average note to pass is 7.5. I didn't realize that but the point is that if instructors give rates below let's say 5, there is almost no chance to pass the lesson.

Average of 7.5 to pass means that 8 is "above average", 7 and 6 are below average and then you jump to 9 which is good and 10 which is perfect. So you have 5 rates (1-5) to say it's not good at all and 5 rates to say it's average, good and perfect.

And honestly, having a rate of 1 to 4 would mean that you barely played anything on your guitar and we will never have that kind of thing on GMC. Plus, we already have 3 people rated 10 which means perfect... man, perfection is a dream ! Why aren't they instructors then ? (kidding here)

If you ask me, I think you are limiting rates you "can" give to somebody and still let him pass. If you drop the average to 6.5 and you rarely give 10's then you would have 8 and 9 to say it's good or very good. And you'll still be able to give a 7 to say it's above average but not that good or a 6 for not good enough.

There will be more possible rates to give and this would be more pedagogic, I guess.

Hope you see the point here.

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[Keilnoth]

As I am sure I am not very clear, I expressed this with a table :



Hope it's better.

In the proposal, there is more yellow because there is more green to compensate.
The 10 (!) mark a really rewarding rate which mean you're the boss.

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[wrk]

Maybe i missed a part how the new system works or the reasons of changing it in this direction. I fully agree that there was a problem with the previous system. With good posture and sound values, the overall rating get already very close to the passing rate of 75%.

I see the difficulties you guys have had to adjust the point system without having to calculate all the the previous entries again, but actually i don't really understand the new system ... at least i don't see the improvement of it compared to the old system ?

As it was possible for the instructors to give point values, the range of evaluation was way more detailed as it is now:

• The new system combines the 5 categories in one.
• Before each category have had a value range of at least 40 steps, 1.0-1.9, 2.0-2.9 ... 4.0-4.9. This value range is now reduced to only 10 steps .. means to something similar like X.0 - X.9 only.

IMO .. the previous system was already really good and could have been optimized by weight the posture/sound values lesser in the overall result OR by simply raising the passing value to ... don't know ... 80, 85 or even 90%. Anyway, i find the 75% passing rate way too low, especially when the difficulty level is raising ... the last 25% area really makes the difference.

To anonymize the instructor votes is indeed a nice idea by using a POLE or POLL, whatever .. but it's a lot of sacrifices to integrate it this way in my opinion.

... as said, maybe i missed something to fully understand the improvement of it ... ?

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This post has been edited by wrk: Oct 2 2009, 07:29 PM

[Fingerspasm]

As I am sure I am not very clear, I expressed this with a table :



Hope it's better.

In the proposal, there is more yellow because there is more green to compensate.
The 10 (!) mark a really rewarding rate which mean you're the boss.

Your point makes sense to me. With 2 kids in school and having to deal with making sure they get good grades a 75% just to pass does seem a little high. Not much room at the top. If you are using a 1-10 to me a 5 or a 6 means its just average and a 7.5 means above average. 8, 9, and 10 are usually reserved for really good to great work.

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[Keilnoth]

If I understand well, the scoreboard don't show any average of your score at all. It only shows an average of the level of the lessons you passed. So we don't really care if the average to pass is 75% or 65% if it's easy to get a 10 or hard to get an 8. In fact, it could be a binary system pass / fail and it would be exactly the same than today.

If the scoreboard was based on an average of the rates you got and if every takes are considered even if failed then that would work.

But you are right wrk, the only difference is that we don't really know what was good or bad anymore except by reading the comments which are always good and useful. But the rate doesn't mean anything anymore.

With the old system, all the aspects of your playing was covered. Now, it's not the case anymore.

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This post has been edited by Keilnoth: Oct 1 2009, 12:34 PM

[skennington]

If I understand well, the scoreboard don't show any average of your score at all. It only shows an average of the level of the lessons you passed. So we don't really care if the average to pass is 75% or 65% if it's easy to get a 10 or hard to get an 8. In fact, it could be a binary system pass / fail and it would be exactly the same than today.

If the scoreboard was based on an average of the rates you got and if every takes are considered even if failed then that would work.

But you are right wrk, the only difference is that we don't really know what was good or bad anymore except by reading the comments which are always good and useful. But the rate doesn't mean anything anymore.

With the old system, all the aspects of your playing was covered. Now, it's not the case anymore.

You are correct, the scoreboard only reflects the level of difficulty of the "passed" lesson attempts. A failed attempt does not go against you in any way and you are encouraged to try it again.

The average is basically the same, you need at least a 7.5 to pass as opposed to a 75% from the previous method.

The new method opens it up for the Instructor to grade you however he/she feels for the lesson attempt. The feedback on your playing will still be given and can be expanded outside of the 5 areas previously used.

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[Keilnoth]

A failed attempt does not go against you in any way and you are encouraged to try it again.

Here I am just sharing my point of view and perhaps a little bit of my frustration.

My opinion is quite different I think. If I spend hours to create a REC and you don't use it because I failed miserably for some reasons, it really goes against me and it's absolutely not encouraging because you are throwing my work to trash.

I know that time is not lost because I practised a lot while doing 200 takes before I got the good one. And I had a few very good and usefull feedbacks. But please note that I could have those feedbacks in the Uploads topic as well without anybody telling me if I passed or failed and by even a lot more people.

But now, I have to do a 100 other takes only to have the lesson figured on my scoreboard, because that's the reason why we are doing REC. That's pretty boring. Or perhaps the REC program is not something for me because I am waaaay too bad.

See what I mean ?

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[Chris Evans]

different things work for different people, personally I wouldnt be submitting a REC take unless I felt pretty comfortable with the lesson as a whole in the first place, as mentioned, if I was just looking for feedback to improve on it then I`d be putting it into uploads or the relevant Instructors board for feedback on how I can get this lesson good enough.

the pass mark of 7.5 (or 75% as it was before) to me is pretty low and well achievable if the work on the lesson is put in, if it didnt hit the marks then I`d want to go back and improve on what let me down, thats the whole point of the grading, nothing has gone to waste.

In my opinion one of the biggest problem with the grading before was that "effort" put in was far too much of a major factor in the scoring, I would score everyone 100% for anything that they attempt, record and submit and I think the Instructors felt the same way too, the scoring now is an overall mark for the take and a little more realisitic of the performance overall, the comments given by the Instructors still follow the same criteria as they did before with pointers on how it could have been even better.

The REC program shouldnt just be looked at as a bulk upload of half attempts in the hope that they pass and get counted towards your overall score on the board, but a showcase of the hard work you`ve put in.

I can hold my hand up and say that the lessons I submitted for the REC I now no longer work on, and I think that would be the case (just guessing here) for most of the others, putting my neck out here there perhaps shouldnt have been some that passed, yet they did and would have been pushed to one side and marked as "completed", is that really any good for someones development? I`m not so sure, but going back to my opening line, different things work for different people

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[Fran]

Interesting thread

If I understand well, the scoreboard don't show any average of your score at all. It only shows an average of the level of the lessons you passed.

To be accurate, it shows an average of the level of the 5 highest graded lessons you passed.

Besides, the current system has two different grades: the Level and the XP titles. What I stated above applies to the Level title.

XP Title only depends on the actual number of lessons passed. Hence the "experience" and not level matterin on this one.

I know that time is not lost because I practised a lot while doing 200 takes before I got the good one...

Now please take this comment as part of my own experience and not a flame, as I've been there too:
If it really takes us so many "takes" to record the lesson, maybe we should actually turn the camera off and practice it a few days more, until we master it and try to record it again. It will take just a few takes then. Doing that makes it much easier to record!

Or maybe we should choose an easier level lesson for REC purposes. So many takes only goes to show that we might not be ready to try that one yet.

Again, this is my humble opinion only

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[NoSkill]

Now please take this comment as part of my own experience and not a flame, as I've been there too:
If it really takes us so many "takes" to record the lesson, maybe we should actually turn the camera off and practice it a few days more, until we master it and try to record it again. It will take just a few takes then. Doing that makes it much easier to record!

Or maybe we should choose an easier level lesson for REC purposes. So many takes only goes to show that we might not be ready to try that one yet.

Again, this is my humble opinion only smile.gif

Point taken, Fran. However, I'm of the school of thought that we should record everything. That is the only way to get comfortable with recording. Only speaking for myself. I can play the lesson, right up until I record it. Then I make a series of minor mistakes in it that take my focus away from playing and then the entire thing unravels.

Now, with regards to REC. If a student wants feedback on a lesson, I don't really think that the REC program is necessarily the place for it. Recording the lesson and asking an instructor, via his board or whatever, is generally more helpful during the learning phases of the lesson.

The REC submission should be for the point when a student says, "There!" We should not be humiliated or have such a fragile ego that we can't take the opinions of those we're asking. If you've ever been adjudicated, you work for sometimes months on a piece. Then you play it once. Then you get some combination of praise and nitpicking that can wound the odd person. Mostly, in my experience, people are wounded by comments that reflect things they already knew and chose to ignore. It's more due to embarrassment than anything else.

While playing other instruments, I had adjudicators that made me want to crawl under my chair and hide. I've also had adjudicators that blew smoke at me. I didn't care for either. However...you get what you get.

At GMC, the instructors are in a difficult conflict sometimes. They want to give feedback. They want to be critical. They want to be encouraging. They want to be helpful. They want to be instructive. They don't want to offend or wound. They don't want to mess with Kris' business. They are generally writing something to you that we can't see their facial expressions or vocal tones. So, we can take harmless comments and blow them out of proportion, or get offended by a grade that says, "This just isn't good enough." The nice thing about feedback is that we find out what we can work on to fix it. I think they are generally walking a line, with critique, that can't be walked. That's the line of finding something, anything to commend about a take. I've submitted takes like that. I'm no SRV.

Frankly, I think the REC grading has been too easy. I think that there have been instances where the instructors go out of their way to try and commend a player on some element of the take, even when it's not up to a passing standard as represented by the original lesson. It's not like we just get a music score, interpret it, record it and submit it. We get an actual version with audio, video, fingering, slow versions, multiple backing track tempos, Guitar Pro files, tabs...You get the recipe and the a version of the final product with each and every step dissected along the way. Then we are graded against our ability to reproduce that lesson. It's fairly specific set of criteria, really.

For me, after 10 submissions to the REC program, I'm consistently reminded of things that are deficient in my playing. There are some instances where, after I see some comments, I shake my head as to why I didn't see/hear that. Or I have also lamented on some comments that were made about stuff that I knew I did wrong, yet submitted it anyway. This goes back to Fran's comments on spending a few more days with the lesson vs. rushing it to the REC. I used to think that the REC program was my way of working on a lesson, recording it, submitting it and getting clear of it. I no longer feel that way, because honestly, by this point, those same things that I should be working on are going to be glaringly obvious if I don't correct them soon. If I'm not going to work to correct them, then why am I submitting to REC. I can just continue to jam into my headset the way I have been doing...ultimately getting nowhere.

I'm rambling now, but the program needs to have meaning. Therefore, somewhere, sometime, someone is going to have to fail a lesson. If the REC program become like getting a Karate belt, then there isn't any reason for the program to exist. (No offense to anyone who has recently gotten a Karate belt.)

Just my opinion.

Cheers!

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[skennington]

name='Keilnoth' post='428833' date='Oct 1 2009, 10:42 AM']Here I am just sharing my point of view and perhaps a little bit of my frustration.

My opinion is quite different I think. If I spend hours to create a REC and you don't use it because I failed miserably for some reasons, it really goes against me and it's absolutely not encouraging because you are throwing my work to trash.

Not at all man and please don't look at it this way. As others have said, this is a way a grading and seeing progress, not as an "upload board".

I know that time is not lost because I practised a lot while doing 200 takes before I got the good one. And I had a few very good and usefull feedbacks. But please note that I could have those feedbacks in the Uploads topic as well without anybody telling me if I passed or failed and by even a lot more people.

This is exactly what you should do until you feel comfortable enough with the lesson to showcase for a grade.

But now, I have to do a 100 other takes only to have the lesson figured on my scoreboard, because that's the reason why we are doing REC. That's pretty boring. Or perhaps the REC program is not something for me because I am waaaay too bad.

See what I mean ?

Your not way to bad, just not ready perhaps for the camera on this one. Trust me, we have all been there and will be there again. You need to be able to play the lesson with 110% confidence before even thinking of hitting the record button. Trust me, as soon as you hit "the button" 20% of that 110 fly's right out the door!

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This post has been edited by skennington: Oct 1 2009, 05:58 PM

[Fran]

For me, after 10 submissions to the REC program, I'm consistently reminded of things that are deficient in my playing. There are some instances where, after I see some comments, I shake my head as to why I didn't see/hear that. Or I have also lamented on some comments that were made about stuff that I knew I did wrong, yet submitted it anyway. This goes back to Fran's comments on spending a few more days with the lesson vs. rushing it to the REC. I used to think that the REC program was my way of working on a lesson, recording it, submitting it and getting clear of it. I no longer feel that way, because honestly, by this point, those same things that I should be working on are going to be glaringly obvious if I don't correct them soon. If I'm not going to work to correct them, then why am I submitting to REC. I can just continue to jam into my headset the way I have been doing...ultimately getting nowhere.

I'm rambling now, but the program needs to have meaning. Therefore, somewhere, sometime, someone is going to have to fail a lesson. If the REC program become like getting a Karate belt, then there isn't any reason for the program to exist. (No offense to anyone who has recently gotten a Karate belt.)

I only quoted part of it.
An awesome, almost philosophical, thread there, nice read Tom

I like the part where you talk about what REC is for you, I mean, that's the whole key of guitar & GMC in my opinion.

On top of the best guitar community out there, GMC & itss programs are tools to achieve our goals. Now, what these goals are, and the amount of importance we give them, that's a whole different story.

I say, whatever makes you wish to keep playing, improve & have a good time is a good use of GMC & the different activities provided, REC included. The road we decide to follow to achieve our goals should be as enticing as the goals themselves!

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[Neurologi]

Firstly, I have to commend everyone on their thoughtful comments pertaining to this topic. I have no personal experience to share since I am yet to submit a REC but I think the nail was hit on the head when it was mentioned how for this program to have "real" meaning one must be prepared to "fail" once in a while. A pass should be seen as a privilege and not a right as it seems to be in the modern sense of education where the teacher/instructor feels obligated to be far too lenient and in the process hinders any semblance of real growth and development. I agree. If anything, the REC program should be even tougher than it already is. Otherwise, what are we recognising? Lack-lustre technique, form and performances? I don't think that is in anyone's best interest.

Feel free to flame me by the way!

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[purple hayes]

The REC program now has a striking similarity to HotOrNot.com now.

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[Neurologi]

Hehe. Nice one, Hayes!!!

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[Keilnoth]

hotornot ? Ok, let me get my leopard pants.

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[josuegda]

Hello,

I´d like to ask one question.

I´m trying to get graded but what happens is that I create a poll with ten possible ratings, I write my user name, the name of the lesson, the link, my gear, my youtube video with the lesson. I think that that´s all. ¿Isn´t it?

I ask this because when I create a new topic to be graded, this topic always desappear and there isn´t any "moved" note.

¿Could it be that i´m doing something wrong?

Thank you.

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[Boson]

I ask this because when I create a new topic to be graded, this topic always desappear and there isn´t any "moved" note.

¿Could it be that i´m doing something wrong?

Thank you.

Hi

No you are not doing anything wrong.

Your topic is moved to a "secret" area for grading.

(Very cloak and dagger!! )

Once it has been graded Skennington will move it back so you can see how you did.

The new rules can be found at https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...mp;#entry428281

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[Matt23]

These changes seem pretty good. I was wondering though, if the topics are being moved to a secret place for grading, could members be allowed to reply to them after they have been graded in case there is a comment they are unsure about or anything?

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[Andrew Cockburn]

I think that's a good point Matt - the procedure used to be to lock the thread to signify that it was finished but perhaps we could leave it open now, because moving it back, to the REC board is what signifies it is complete, and yes, that would give the opportunity for comment and question. What do you think Skenny?

About the various other comments - I love to see this debate going on, because GMC is what we all make it and members are an extremely important part of GMC!

The intention is, exactly as others have said to make REC grading hard enough to be meaningful, and by no means an automatic pass. We were perhaps to close to that previously, so we have tightened things up a little, and will be keeping an eye on it moving forward.

Like anything at GMC, our philosophy is to jump in and try things out, then tweak and change to make things work better when we learn more - we just reached the tweaking phase with REC

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