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> I Know This Is Touchy.., but if u dont want to even comment i understand
David Wallimann
post Oct 12 2009, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 12:52 PM) *
Is there any proof that "God" actually exists ? Because a lot of people have proven that he/she/it doesn't exist !


What might be "proof" to someone might not be to someone else..
I think that's where faith comes in..
I see proof of his existence by just looking out the window.. But I'm not expecting everyone to see that as proof either...


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purple hayes
post Oct 12 2009, 06:21 PM
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I'm a protestant Christian. Some days by faith is stronger than others.

I think the reason I'm at my current church is because the music director is so good at what he does. He has us playing stuff that I'd never do on my own. Some days what we play can be really powerful stuff.


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Frej10
post Oct 12 2009, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Skalde @ Oct 12 2009, 07:09 PM) *
You say something is proven, how can there be proof for the contrary?

btw: You can proove nothing


Of course you can prove anything with the help of science !

We have for example proven that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, as the bible says, but several billions years old with the help of the Carbon 14 method.

A virgin can't give birth to child, like Mary would have done. An "human" egg is only composed of 23 cromosomes and need another 23 that come from the sperm to start the process of making a baby.

It is also proven that it is impossible to walk on water, which Jesus "did" in the Bible. The tension of the water isn't dense enough for the human body.

These are only a few evidences that make me understand that Christiany is nothing else than a "written history written for grown up children".
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David Wallimann
post Oct 12 2009, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (purple hayes @ Oct 12 2009, 01:21 PM) *
I'm a protestant Christian. Some days by faith is stronger than others.

I think the reason I'm at my current church is because the music director is so good at what he does. He has us playing stuff that I'd never do on my own. Some days what we play can be really powerful stuff.


Great to hear man! :-)


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Matt23
post Oct 12 2009, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 07:14 PM) *
Of course you can prove anything with the help of science !

We have for example proven that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, as the bible says, but several billions years old with the help of the Carbon 14 method.

A virgin can't give birth to child, like Mary would have done. An "human" egg is only composed of 23 cromosomes and need another 23 that come from the sperm to start the process of making a baby.

It is also proven that it is impossible to walk on water, which Jesus "did" in the Bible. The tension of the water isn't dense enough for the human body.

These are only a few evidences that make me understand that Christiany is nothing else than a "written history written for grown up children".


I haven't read the bible, so I can't comment on any specific examples, but I believe it is meant to be taken metaphorically, not literally. I see where your coming from though.

QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 05:52 PM) *
Is there any proof that "God" actually exists ? Because a lot of people have proven that he/she/it doesn't exist !


What proof is there?
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Oct 12 2009, 07:49 PM
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I have a lot to say on the issue:

I have had the Christian Faith shoved down my throat sense I was little.
I am not saying it is a bad thing or a good thing. I was forced into believing something because of my parents.
I don't think it was right on there part. I know there just trying to encourage Christianity and what not, because the fabric of that religion in particular has alot of good ethical morals and values, that if lived by correctly....good enhance ones life a lot.

But after being part of it for so long and seeing how devoted some of the Catholics were, I had to get out. Until Evolution is proven or something can be said about all the loop holes in many religions, I can't commit to one.
I got mad every time when I was younger when I would pray faithfully to something when I was little and never had any results, I would find me self saying things like..." Well if you were real, why did all these bad things happen?" , If there was some higher power during this time, why didn't it intervene and try to help ?

I guess I was mad from the get go because I didn't have a choice but I also often found myself saying things like :
"Well there a tons of religions out there, whos to say I am right ? And that everyone else is wrong?

I finally came to the conclusion that I don't need any of that to be happy. Until there is proof of something, I will sit on the sidelines rather then devoting my life to something that my be 100% false.
I see religion as blueprint for people to live happy lifes. If you need the manual, that's fine. If you don't that's fine too.

This post has been edited by Eat-Sleep-andJam: Oct 12 2009, 07:50 PM


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lcsdds
post Oct 12 2009, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Oct 12 2009, 07:49 PM) *
I have a lot to say on the issue:

I have had the Christian Faith shoved down my throat sense I was little.
I am not saying it is a bad thing or a good thing. I was forced into believing something because of my parents.
I don't think it was right on there part. I know there just trying to encourage Christianity and what not, because the fabric of that religion in particular has alot of good ethical morals and values, that if lived by correctly....good enhance ones life a lot.

But after being part of it for so long and seeing how devoted some of the Catholics were, I had to get out. Until Evolution is proven or something can be said about all the loop holes in many religions, I can't commit to one.
I got mad every time when I was younger when I would pray faithfully to something when I was little and never had any results, I would find me self saying things like..." Well if you were real, why did all these bad things happen?" , If there was some higher power during this time, why didn't it intervene and try to help ?

I guess I was mad from the get go because I didn't have a choice but I also often found myself saying things like :
"Well there a tons of religions out there, whos to say I am right ? And that everyone else is wrong?

I finally came to the conclusion that I don't need any of that to be happy. Until there is proof of something, I will sit on the sidelines rather then devoting my life to something that my be 100% false.
I see religion as blueprint for people to live happy lifes. If you need the manual, that's fine. If you don't that's fine too.

Sounds like you and I have had the same experience. I was raised Mormon and both my family and my wife's family have a long history of Mormonism in our families. I'm 38 now and for many reasons over the last 2 years I decided I was done with Mormonism......and religion in general for that matter. This seemingly simple decision damn near cost my my marriage and my kids. Luckily my wife and I have come to terms with making our relationship work but I'll tell you what.....I have a whole new understanding of what cults are and why it isn't so easy to just "get out". I was able to "get out" but the price has been EXTREMELY high.

I don't know if I believe in God or not.....but I know one thing and that is that I have NO NEED of any religion made by MAN. Humans can take a good thing and 99.9% of the time turn it into a bad thing. mad.gif
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Wabba
post Oct 12 2009, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 07:14 PM) *
Of course you can prove anything with the help of science !

We have for example proven that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, as the bible says, but several billions years old with the help of the Carbon 14 method.

A virgin can't give birth to child, like Mary would have done. An "human" egg is only composed of 23 cromosomes and need another 23 that come from the sperm to start the process of making a baby.

It is also proven that it is impossible to walk on water, which Jesus "did" in the Bible. The tension of the water isn't dense enough for the human body.

These are only a few evidences that make me understand that Christiany is nothing else than a "written history written for grown up children".


Interesting. But Isn't god the god just because he/she's the god. OK, can't say anything to that 6k years thing, but still. I mean... A god is a god because he/she can do things that non-gods can not do, right? Or then I'm just wrong (again), whatever... tongue.gif

Anyways, I personally don't believe in god, but I've been wondering some things at nights:

Why the universe was born? Because the big bang, sure, why not, but why was there a big bang? Perhaps this is a just one universe in the endless chain of universes, a new one borns everytime an old one dies.. But why is there there such a chain, anyway? Did god create it? If did, then where did god come from? My point is that, Why is there a thing as reality, when there could as well be nothing. Where could all these atoms possible have come from? From nothing? What is this, and why it is this? I don't understand, and probably nobody never understands, and thinking this really makes me confused... huh.gif
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Oct 12 2009, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Oct 12 2009, 11:56 AM) *
Sounds like you and I have had the same experience. I was raised Mormon and both my family and my wife's family have a long history of Mormonism in our families. I'm 38 now and for many reasons over the last 2 years I decided I was done with Mormonism......and religion in general for that matter. This seemingly simple decision damn near cost my my marriage and my kids. Luckily my wife and I have come to terms with making our relationship work but I'll tell you what.....I have a whole new understanding of what cults are and why it isn't so easy to just "get out". I was able to "get out" but the price has been EXTREMELY high.

I don't know if I believe in God or not.....but I know one thing and that is that I have NO NEED of any religion made by MAN. Humans can take a good thing and 99.9% of the time turn it into a bad thing. mad.gif



I could only imagine how bad that must have been. Mormon does in fact take it to a new level.


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Frej10
post Oct 12 2009, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (Matt23 @ Oct 12 2009, 08:48 PM) *
I haven't read the bible, so I can't comment on any specific examples, but I believe it is meant to be taken metaphorically, not literally. I see where your coming from though.



What proof is there?


How can you take the fact that the earth is 6000 years old, according to the Bible, metaphorically ?

I strongly recomend you to read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
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lcsdds
post Oct 12 2009, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Oct 12 2009, 08:00 PM) *
I could only imagine how bad that must have been. Mormon does in fact take it to a new level.

Yeah.....it's difficult to understand unless you have been part of the religion. It was awful though. I'm over it now and my family is in tact so that's good. I don't know that knowing what I know now that I would make the same decision to "get out" now. They basically hold your family hostage and say "believe or lose EVERYTHING"........ sad.gif
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Matt23
post Oct 12 2009, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 08:04 PM) *
How can you take the fact that the earth is 6000 years old, according to the Bible, metaphorically ?

I strongly recomend you to read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.


To your first point, isn't it just creationists who believe the earth to be 6000 years old (I don't).

And yes I'd be interested to read that.

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Skalde
post Oct 12 2009, 08:15 PM
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Oct 12 2009, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 12:04 PM) *
How can you take the fact that the earth is 6000 years old, according to the Bible, metaphorically ?

I strongly recomend you to read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.



I really want to read that book aswell.


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Lester
post Oct 12 2009, 08:36 PM
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I'm an active believer!! wink.gif

And believe in the bible from cover to cover, interpetation is an issue though smile.gif
I think you can never have a 100% same opinion about this because it's just too broad with so many interpretations possible.
But in my humble opinion it doesn't always matter, so many people fight on small details, for me, when the gospel stays intact, I'm fine.
But what is the gospel? Might be something different for me than for you, get what I mean? Interpretation tongue.gif

And about "creation or evolution?", you will never end discussing that!!
You name me a book that "proves" creationism can't be true and I'll name you a book that "proves" evolution ain't right and creation is.
You're not a believer because something is proven, It's a faith!! huh.gif
I BELIEVE that the Bible is Gods word, I BELIEVE what it says is true, thus I BELIEVE in creation.
What does that make me? a BELIEVER!!! ohmy.gif

In my humble opinion evolution is a faith too!! wink.gif

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David Wallimann
post Oct 12 2009, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 02:14 PM) *
Of course you can prove anything with the help of science !

We have for example proven that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, as the bible says, but several billions years old with the help of the Carbon 14 method.

A virgin can't give birth to child, like Mary would have done. An "human" egg is only composed of 23 cromosomes and need another 23 that come from the sperm to start the process of making a baby.

It is also proven that it is impossible to walk on water, which Jesus "did" in the Bible. The tension of the water isn't dense enough for the human body.

These are only a few evidences that make me understand that Christiany is nothing else than a "written history written for grown up children".



You're right, these things are impossible...
But that's why these things are called miracles, right?
Anyways, I'm not trying to convince anyone of my own beliefs..
Just wanted to point out that you are absolutely right, those things are impossible. But for believers, what is impossible to man is possible to God, which makes him God.

Faith is definitely not something that anyone can force on anyone. If anyone is a believer, he will have to agree that it was because of a personal encounter of God that he is what he is today...
That's why all debates between believers and non believers often turn into a big mess.
My beliefs in a God who loved us so much that he would make himself man to die for my sins is completely foolishness to men (including me).. That's where faith comes in I guess...



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Matt23
post Oct 12 2009, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ Oct 12 2009, 08:39 PM) *
Faith is definitely not something that anyone can force on anyone. If anyone is a believer, he will have to agree that it was because of a personal encounter of God that he is what he is today...


Yeh, I think it is alright to have your own beliefs, but to try and force them on unwilling people is wrong, and a lot of bad things have happened as a result of people doing that.

QUOTE (Frej10 @ Oct 12 2009, 07:14 PM) *
Of course you can prove anything with the help of science !

We have for example proven that the Earth isn't 6000 years old, as the bible says, but several billions years old with the help of the Carbon 14 method.

A virgin can't give birth to child, like Mary would have done. An "human" egg is only composed of 23 cromosomes and need another 23 that come from the sperm to start the process of making a baby.

It is also proven that it is impossible to walk on water, which Jesus "did" in the Bible. The tension of the water isn't dense enough for the human body.

These are only a few evidences that make me understand that Christiany is nothing else than a "written history written for grown up children".


Also something I like to add, is that you can believe in God and not believe everything in the bible, and not follow a religion. I think that's where I am. I believe in God, but I do it in my own way, with help from the bible etc. I don't blindly follow every rule, and writing because it is part of a religion. I definitely see why you think as you do though, sicne I was like that not more than a couple of years ago.
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post Oct 12 2009, 08:54 PM
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non-believer.

The fact that you have all types of people all over the world creating religions that satisy a need to bleieve in a higher power is all the reasoning I need.

Some people want/need to be led.

I don't.



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post Oct 12 2009, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Oct 12 2009, 08:56 PM) *
Sounds like you and I have had the same experience. I was raised Mormon and both my family and my wife's family have a long history of Mormonism in our families. I'm 38 now and for many reasons over the last 2 years I decided I was done with Mormonism......and religion in general for that matter. This seemingly simple decision damn near cost my my marriage and my kids. Luckily my wife and I have come to terms with making our relationship work but I'll tell you what.....I have a whole new understanding of what cults are and why it isn't so easy to just "get out". I was able to "get out" but the price has been EXTREMELY high.

I don't know if I believe in God or not.....but I know one thing and that is that I have NO NEED of any religion made by MAN. Humans can take a good thing and 99.9% of the time turn it into a bad thing. mad.gif



Sorry to hear that this wounded both of you in a way. It is kinda sad to read this. Thank you for you honesty on this personal part.

Hope things will turn for the good.





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post Oct 12 2009, 09:18 PM
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Was atheist for 31 years. Now I believed for the past 4 years. I attend church regularly and in a worship band.

Untill to you discover GOD on your own it makes all the sense to me why you wouldn't beleive in one.









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