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> Zen's December Mtp Thread, Weekly assignments and uploads here
Pedja Simovic
post Dec 3 2009, 02:09 PM
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Hi Zen,

Welcome back to MTP program. I am sorry about misunderstanding in November. Very happy that we are officially starting now in December with no hold backs of any kind!
Since you did awesome with your 1st assignment in November, I am just going to go ahead and extend that same assignment to get you going in December. Feel free to copy and paste work you did for C major, but you will be required to put an extra effort and do it for G and F major as well.
Here is your 1st assignment for December!

Your 1st assignment for December is due week from today (10th of December)

Here is your assignment

Theory reading :

- I would like you to read my posts from links provided below.
- Once you read it all, memorize 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.
- Learn to apply scale degrees rather then numbers ( I in C major is C, IV in C is F etc).
- Write out in this thread all notes for 3 and 4 part harmony in C major as well as in F and G major scales.

Here are the links:

Major scale harmony and chord functions

Cadences



Let me know if you have any questions and if I could help in any way!

Pedja


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zen
post Dec 4 2009, 01:17 AM
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Thanks Pedja, Been looking forward to this.

I've always been confused with theory, so I'll ask a lot of questions along the way.. Some of them are:

(1) When you say that I can "substitute" chords on scale degrees I III VI (for example), by substitution do you mean that If in a composition on C major scale, I can use either of those chords as tonic bases? Or does that mean that they are harmonies of each other?

(2) To a novice like myself, I always thought harmonies are played on the 3rd or 5th notes of the scale , for example a lick played somewhere around the root and then I play the same lick starting from the 3rd and 5th of that scale, to get it's harmonies. I am unable to relate the the harmonies chapter I read to this simple understanding I had in terms of practical application.

(3) Is there a typo under 'dominant type function area'? VI scale degree is mentioned as B diminished.. Should'nt that be VII scale degree? I suspect it's a typo.

I've started going through cadence.... More stupid questions to follow smile.gif

Zen


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 4 2009, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 4 2009, 01:17 AM) *
Thanks Pedja, Been looking forward to this.

I've always been confused with theory, so I'll ask a lot of questions along the way.. Some of them are:

(1) When you say that I can "substitute" chords on scale degrees I III VI (for example), by substitution do you mean that If in a composition on C major scale, I can use either of those chords as tonic bases? Or does that mean that they are harmonies of each other?

(2) To a novice like myself, I always thought harmonies are played on the 3rd or 5th notes of the scale , for example a lick played somewhere around the root and then I play the same lick starting from the 3rd and 5th of that scale, to get it's harmonies. I am unable to relate the the harmonies chapter I read to this simple understanding I had in terms of practical application.

(3) Is there a typo under 'dominant type function area'? VI scale degree is mentioned as B diminished.. Should'nt that be VII scale degree? I suspect it's a typo.

I've started going through cadence.... More stupid questions to follow smile.gif

Zen


Hey Zen,

All great and perfectly valid questions. Lets address them one by one now...

1) When you say that I can "substitute" chords on scale degrees I III VI (for example), by substitution do you mean that If in a composition on C major scale, I can use either of those chords as tonic bases? Or does that mean that they are harmonies of each other?
I mean the first thing smile.gif In other words, C major could be exchanged with E minor or A minor chords, same goes for 7th chords (C maj7 for A min7 or E min7). Again this is great if melody allows it and it all depends what you want to achieve with this diatonic substitution. It is reharmonization tool nothing more nothing less smile.gif

2) To a novice like myself, I always thought harmonies are played on the 3rd or 5th notes of the scale , for example a lick played somewhere around the root and then I play the same lick starting from the 3rd and 5th of that scale, to get it's harmonies. I am unable to relate the the harmonies chapter I read to this simple understanding I had in terms of practical application.
You are right, partially. Playing harmony of certain melody or solo is one thing and what I asked you to do was to write out harmony. In other words I wanted you to write out chords that exist in specific major scale(s) and label them using specific chord symbols and roman numerals. Playing harmonies can vary anywhere from 3rds, 5ths, 6ths and 4ths (these are most common ways to harmonize melodies).

3) Is there a typo under 'dominant type function area'? VI scale degree is mentioned as B diminished.. Should'nt that be VII scale degree? I suspect it's a typo.
If it is like you just mentioned then it is definitely a typo as it should say VII scale degree is B diminished.

Let me know if you got any more questions Zen!

Pedja


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zen
post Dec 4 2009, 11:40 AM
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Thanks Pedja for replying to my questions..

Now for the assignment:

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in C Major scale

Notes of C Major Scale - C D E F G A B C

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I------C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with root C)
II-----D Min-----D F A (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note D)
III-----E Min-----E G B (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note E)
IV-----F Maj-----F A C (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note F)
V------G Maj-----G B D (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note G)
VI-----A Min------A C E (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note A)
VII-----B Dim-------B D F (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note B )
VIII----C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the C major scale starting with note C)


4 part/note type harmony in C Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I ------ C Maj7 ------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with root C)
II ------D Min7 ------D F A C (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note D)
III -----E Min7 -------E G B D (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note E)
IV -----F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note F)
V ------G dom7 ---G B D F (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note G)
VI -----A Min7 -------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note A)
VII -----B Min7b5 ----B D F A (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note B )
VIII ----C Maj7 ------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the C major scale starting with note C)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in F Major scale

Notes of F Major Scale - F G A Bb C D E F

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I --------F Maj------ F A C (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with root F)
II -------G Min------ G Bb D (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note G)
III ------A Min-------A C E (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note A)
IV ------Bb Maj----- Bb D F (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note Bb)
V -------C Maj------ C E G (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note C)
VI ------D Min------- D F A (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note D)
VII ------E Dim-------- E G Bb (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note E)
VIII -----F Maj------- F A C (1,3,5 of the F major scale starting with note F)


4 part/note type harmony in F Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I ---------F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with root F)
II --------G Min7 -------G Bb D F (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note G)
III -------A Min7 --------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note A)
IV --------Bb Maj7 ------Bb D F A (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note Bb)
V --------C dom7 ----C E G Bb (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note C)
VI --------D Min7 -------D F A C (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note D)
VII -------E Min7b5 -----E G Bb D (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note E)
VIII ------F Maj7 -------F A C E (1,3,5,7 of the F major scale starting with note F)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 part/note/triadic type harmony in G Major scale

Notes of G Major Scale - G A B C D E F# G

I,IV,V scale degrees - Major Chrods
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor Chords
VII scale degree - Diminished Chord

Hence,

I -------G Maj----- G B D (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with root G)
II -------A Min---- A C E (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note A)
III ------B Min---- B D F# (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note B )
IV ------C Maj-----C E G (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note C)
V -------D Maj---- D F# A (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note D)
VI ------E Min----- E G B (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note E)
VII -----F# Dim----- F# A C (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note F#)
VIII ----G Maj----- G B D (1,3,5 of the G major scale starting with note G)


4 part/note type harmony in G Major scale

I,IV scale degrees - Major 7 Chords
II,III,VI scale degrees - Minor 7 chords
V scale degree - Dominant 7 Chord (blues chord)
VII scale degree - Minor 7b5 chord

I --------G Maj7 ----------G B D F# (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with root G)
II --------A Min7 ----------A C E G (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note A)
III -------B Min7 ----------B D F# A (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note B )
IV -------C Maj7 ----------C E G B (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note C)
V --------D Dom7 ------D F# A C (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note D)
VI -------E Min7 ----------E G B D (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note E)
VII ------F# Min7b5 -------F# A C E (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note F#)
VIII ------G Maj7 ---------G B D F# (1,3,5,7 of the G major scale starting with note G)


Edit: replaced Gb with F# and chord naming conventions

This post has been edited by zen: Dec 4 2009, 01:13 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 4 2009, 11:48 AM
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Zen almost perfect work, well done man !

Couple of corrections regarding chord symbols.

You don't have to write full chord name but can rather use following : C major 7 = C maj7 ; C minor7 = C min7; C dominant 7 = C dom7 or C7 (best way C7); C diminished = C dim; C augmented = C aug; C minor7b5 = C min7b5 ; C diminished 7th = C dim7

Try to use those in future as they are pretty much universal in all the universities, real books and lead sheets.

Just one more correction to your entire assignment. Please double check your G major scale and tell me if something is wrong in there?


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zen
post Dec 4 2009, 12:49 PM
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Thanks Pedja, I'll adapt the formal chord symbols..

I'm staring very hard at the G Major scale but cant see the fault you mentioned ... unsure.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 4 2009, 12:55 PM
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Ok Zen I will help you out just a bit so you could correct the fault on your own.

Notice how C major scale has 7 different letter names?
What do you notice about G major scale, what letter name is missing in the scale???

Always keep that in mind that rule wink.gif


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zen
post Dec 4 2009, 01:00 PM
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F# of course smile.gif ... But i thought i could use Gb instead of it.. No?

So it will be ... G A B C D E F# G


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 4 2009, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 4 2009, 01:00 PM) *
F# of course smile.gif ... But i thought i could use Gb instead of it.. No?

So it will be ... G A B C D E F# G


That is the correct answer smile.gif
No Gb but rather F#. It is impossible to have same letter with different accidentals. This only happens if you are writing and reading atonal music that changes keys often within the piece. Since G major is well known scale it has one sharp which is F#, we use F# instead of Gb. Same not but in theory very important to label things right and understand them.
Go ahead and correct now your text with F# in it !


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zen
post Dec 4 2009, 01:22 PM
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Great .. Done smile.gif Shortened the chord names and made the G major scale shiny smile.gif

Some more questions on the 'rules':

1) In major scale, maj chords on I,IV,V ... min on II,III,VI... dim on VII ..... where did these rules come from? Why is a major chord not on II, III, or VI ..

2) Similar sort of question on the notes that make the tonic, dominant and sub dom functions.. there are some "must contains" (6th or 4th or 5th note etc) notes ... why only those notes in those functions? ..

If this is an advanced topic or if i'm jumping the gun here, then please let me know. Or point me to an external link/text smile.gif



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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 4 2009, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 4 2009, 01:22 PM) *
Great .. Done smile.gif Shortened the chord names and made the G major scale shiny smile.gif

Some more questions on the 'rules':

1) In major scale, maj chords on I,IV,V ... min on II,III,VI... dim on VII ..... where did these rules come from? Why is a major chord not on II, III, or VI ..

2) Similar sort of question on the notes that make the tonic, dominant and sub dom functions.. there are some "must contains" (6th or 4th or 5th note etc) notes ... why only those notes in those functions? ..

If this is an advanced topic or if i'm jumping the gun here, then please let me know. Or point me to an external link/text smile.gif


Lets address each question again smile.gif

1) In major scale, maj chords on I,IV,V ... min on II,III,VI... dim on VII ..... where did these rules come from? Why is a major chord not on II, III, or VI ..
In harmony we use something called Tertian harmony. That pretty much means that chords are built by using Diatonic 3rds. In plain language that means that we use every other note in the scale, we stack them one of top of another and get 3, 4 or more note chord in the end. So in C major we get C D E F G A B C scale. If we start on C note, we skip D and get E, then skip F and get G. So our chord from C is CEG. How do we know if its major or minor? Well simply by interval formula. Major chord has major 3rd followed by minor 3rd or Major 3rd and Perfect 5th from root. Also one could argue that we know the chords by their SOUND but I don't want to go there now smile.gif

2) Similar sort of question on the notes that make the tonic, dominant and sub dom functions.. there are some "must contains" (6th or 4th or 5th note etc) notes ... why only those notes in those functions? ..
This is very related to your 1st question. Tonic chord is something that describes given key/mode. So C major scale, tonic chord is obviously C major. Now besides C major that has 135 of the scale in it, we also have A minor which has 613 and E minor that is weakest tonic chord that uses 357 of the key. The reason why E minor is the weakest is because it doesn't have 1 in it, which is the most stable note in major scale but it has 3 and 5 which are very useful for Tonic sound. Subdominant function by definition as I said sounds also strong like Tonic but it has some sort of different feel and movement. This is all thanks to scale degrees 2 4 and 6. In key of C major that would be notes D F A. Those notes have a tendency to move to TONIC NOTES (D to C or E, F to E or G and A to G). This is why Subdominant type chords are on the 2nd scale degree which is DFA (D minor chord uses 246 perfect) and on 4th scale degree which is FAC (F major uses 461 again perfect 4 and 6 along with TONIC sound , in and a bit out sound at the same time). When it comes to Dominant functioning chords their role is to move and resolve to either TONIC sound or Subdominant sound. When we go to Tonic sounding chord (I of the key, so G7 to C maj) that is expected resolution, while if we went G7 to F or G7 to D min , that would be unexpected way of resolving it or as we call it in music Deceptive resolution. Dominant function chords contain 2 most "unstable" notes in major scale, 4 and 7 ! 7 has tendency to move to 1 (or 8 if you will) while 4 can go to either 3 or 5 of the scale. 4 and 7 of a scale are actually minor7th and major3rd of dominant 7th chord on 5th scale degree. These two notes are called and known as guide tones. Guide tones are chord tones in any chord where we play only 3rd and 7th of that chord ( For C major7 guide tones would be E and B for example). So Dominant function chords are G major (GBD = 572) and B diminished (BDF = 724). If we do 4 part harmony we would get G7 (GBDF= 5724) and B min7b5 (BDFA=7246).
Hope this answers your question in depth and clear. Let me know if you got more questions!


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zen
post Dec 5 2009, 05:00 AM
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Thanks Pedja smile.gif .. After reading your replies thoroughly I think I've got the crux of it ...
I've finished reading modes and cadences.. No questions now but I'll have more when we start implementing it. By the way, i still cant play all the chords all over the neck that I've written down in this assignment.. i think we'll cover it gradually.
Since I improve rather slowly, can you please nominate the REC lesson that I need to record by the end of the month, so I can start warming up to it? rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by zen: Dec 6 2009, 07:17 AM


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 7 2009, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 5 2009, 05:00 AM) *
Thanks Pedja smile.gif .. After reading your replies thoroughly I think I've got the crux of it ...
I've finished reading modes and cadences.. No questions now but I'll have more when we start implementing it. By the way, i still cant play all the chords all over the neck that I've written down in this assignment.. i think we'll cover it gradually.
Since I improve rather slowly, can you please nominate the REC lesson that I need to record by the end of the month, so I can start warming up to it? rolleyes.gif


Zen since you mentioned having trouble with playing chords from major scale around the guitar neck I have a perfect lesson for you that you will do for REC.

Triads in C major scale part 1

Consider this your REC assignment by the end of the month, start working on it every day and let me know if you got any questions!


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zen
post Dec 7 2009, 12:53 PM
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Thanks Pedja.. Last month while waiting for the mtp to begin, i did learn those chords in C Major triad but the challenges are:

-- finger picking - some notes ring out louder than the others
-- can memorize the sequence of chords as they are played on the neck in this exercise ... but struggling to randomly pick the chord in the sequence .. i noticed the maj & min chords have respective shapes in the strings they are played.... I'm trying to say that if i quiz myself that i wanna play F maj in 3-4-5 string straight away... Two ways of going through this

1- As per this exercise (since i've memorized the "sequence" i start from c maj on 3-4-5 strings 15th fret onwards and work my way down to F maj. OR
2 - find the F note on 5th string and use the pattern for maj chord.

I'm slow in both the options at the moment.. Any techniques, tricks or ideas to learn to pick the defined chord directly?

I think i should be able to post the video for this soon enough... hopefully.




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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 7 2009, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 7 2009, 12:53 PM) *
Thanks Pedja.. Last month while waiting for the mtp to begin, i did learn those chords in C Major triad but the challenges are:

-- finger picking - some notes ring out louder than the others
-- can memorize the sequence of chords as they are played on the neck in this exercise ... but struggling to randomly pick the chord in the sequence .. i noticed the maj & min chords have respective shapes in the strings they are played.... I'm trying to say that if i quiz myself that i wanna play F maj in 3-4-5 string straight away... Two ways of going through this

1- As per this exercise (since i've memorized the "sequence" i start from c maj on 3-4-5 strings 15th fret onwards and work my way down to F maj. OR
2 - find the F note on 5th string and use the pattern for maj chord.

I'm slow in both the options at the moment.. Any techniques, tricks or ideas to learn to pick the defined chord directly?

I think i should be able to post the video for this soon enough... hopefully.


You welcome Zen. This will be perfect series for you to master. I like that you already listed potential problems. With finger picking you need to play and practice more doing it until you get comftable sound out of all chords. Thumb seems to be problem for everybody as most people pluck strings harder with it. Try to balance it out with rest of the fingers and work on a clean and clear sound, record it and lets see what happens. Regarding sequence of chords... For purpose of learning lesson it is great to learn the sequence and play it however, you will want to randomly quiz yourself and find chords on your own. By learning this lesson with sequence your hands and brain will memorize how major minor and diminished shapes look feel and sound on all string sets. This is just C major, remember there is 11 more major keys! I would use both methods in the beginning but after you get a good grasp of this material start using 2nd method (randomly asking yourself to find specific major/minor/diminished chord on string set 654/543/432/321).

Let me know if you got any more questions. I have to prepare material for my solo performance tonight.


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zen
post Dec 7 2009, 01:05 PM
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Great. Thanks for clearing that out Pedja ... I have already been working on some finger picking ... lets see how it goes.
I'll record a take much before the month is over hopefully... My challenge is to really know what I'm playing and to master it so i can randomize things, THAT will take some time.. will keep posting here on the progress.

All the best for your solo performance.. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 8 2009, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 7 2009, 01:05 PM) *
Great. Thanks for clearing that out Pedja ... I have already been working on some finger picking ... lets see how it goes.
I'll record a take much before the month is over hopefully... My challenge is to really know what I'm playing and to master it so i can randomize things, THAT will take some time.. will keep posting here on the progress.

All the best for your solo performance.. smile.gif


I know you will do great with that one Zen, plenty of time to do it right.
Solo performance went great, I have another one this Thursday which I will need to prepare some classical repertoire for as well (20-30 minutes at least) so I will work on that today and tomorrow.
Let me know if you got any questions.


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zen
post Dec 8 2009, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 8 2009, 10:12 PM) *
I know you will do great with that one Zen, plenty of time to do it right.
Solo performance went great, I have another one this Thursday which I will need to prepare some classical repertoire for as well (20-30 minutes at least) so I will work on that today and tomorrow.
Let me know if you got any questions.



Thanks Pedja, the finger picking is coming along much better and relaxed today.
Are you going to post the next assignment on 10th?

Great to hear about your performance .. and you got more gigs this week smile.gif ... Awesome... i like classical stuff.... Regarding performances, how do you warm up before playing? can you share some of your warm up exercises that you do on a regular basis in your routine ?


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 8 2009, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Dec 8 2009, 01:44 PM) *
Thanks Pedja, the finger picking is coming along much better and relaxed today.
Are you going to post the next assignment on 10th?

Great to hear about your performance .. and you got more gigs this week smile.gif ... Awesome... i like classical stuff.... Regarding performances, how do you warm up before playing? can you share some of your warm up exercises that you do on a regular basis in your routine ?


Hey Zen,

I will try to post your assignment today or tomorrow. You got REC so you can focus on it for the time being, new assignment will be up on 10th or before. Regarding warm up exercises, I tend to play chord melodies to get my hands and fingers coordinated the best. When I have to do some technical pieces I would usually build up the repertoire to lead into the most technical piece so that my fingers and right hand picking can be coordinated by the time I get to play that piece. So for example I leave Eric Johnson's Manhattan and SRV for my 3rd set because of those reasons. 1st set I do only solo guitar arrangements, 2nd is rock blues pop and evergreen standards and then in 3rd set I do some Satriani Johnson Gary Moore Santana and what not smile.gif Hope that makes sense!


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zen
post Dec 12 2009, 02:24 AM
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Thanks Pedja. Continuing to work on the lesson for REC.

Looking forward to the 2nd assignment smile.gif


This post has been edited by zen: Dec 12 2009, 03:10 AM


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