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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
intemperateContr...
post Dec 14 2009, 04:19 PM
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This thread has great interest to me. Speaking not as a professional musician
but as a fan of many. When my brother and I were in our teens, he used to
use the VCR and record every video or live performance from any band he
liked on TV. I had my radio on most the time, and always had a blank tape ready
to hit record whenever one of my favorite songs would play. This also prompted
me to buy many albums. MTV and radio were the mainstreams for free musical
entertainment in those days, and I think all this hype and glorification is much of
what made so many people want to go and see those bands live when they came
to town and also buy their albums in the millions. Like one hand to feeding the
other. Because you never got to hear all the songs on the album without buying
the whole album. I remember when G -n- R came to our town once for their new
Use Your Illusion albums (new at the time), before the album itself was even
released! but at that time only the demo was available until after they swept
through town with sold out shows - my brother bought the demo and he and his
friends actually went to see the concert! And yes, I listened to his copy of
the demo. So, I think all this began well before the internet revolution came
into play, because I was recording music as a kid before 1980.

Trying to harness the mediums being used these days in a positive way is
difficult given the dilemmas being projected here. No doubt. In another
sense, if you take all the albums you have sold legitimately, and could add
to that number those who have accessed them illegally, maybe you have a-lot
more fans out there than you thought! Although misguided and short sighted,
but fans nonetheless. Without repeating what was said in my former post or
trying to add to the great insight already projected here. This is my view
as a fan. Don't give up, Emir. Take a break and think things through, but
don't give up any of you... smile.gif
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intemperateContr...
post Dec 14 2009, 11:43 PM
Post #102


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.......Not to quote myself, but, what I am trying to say here is. Don't let it strike
you down, but dudes, "Ride The Lightening." Use it to your benefit... (*bump*)
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Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 14 2009, 11:43 PM) *
.......Not to quote myself, but, what I am trying to say here is. Don't let it strike
you down, but dudes, "Ride The Lightening." Use it to your benefit... (*bump*)


Yeah, exactly! Be creative and use the tools now available, it's all out there!


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intemperateContr...
post Dec 14 2009, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 14 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Yeah, exactly! Be creative and use the tools now available, it's all out there!


Fully Agreed! Hey, Do you Manage? he he he!
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Emir Hot
post Dec 15 2009, 12:02 AM
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Thanks for your words of support intemperate but I'm not continuing at this point. Once I save enough money to live a whole year without a job then I can do a new album as that's how long it would take for such project without being able to do anything else. Even after I finish, there is no gurantee that I will get my 12 salaries back but I would go for that risk if I had enough savings. I hope you understand the difficulty. This is how we're all hard working musicians slowly dying in this modern world.


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 15 2009, 12:11 AM
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My conclusion after reading all these responses is following :

- Sign with record label only if it allows you to also sell your work outside of their promotion and/or you get at least all expenses payed plus year in advance money to live nicely and do another record in the meanwhile.
- Don't sign the label, get money via sponsorship or donations (maybe your city or music organization in your town can sponsor your work) and then do the marketing online and whatever you sell will be extra income.

My final conclusion to all this is that making an album can be whatever you want it to be. You just have to accept the fact that you can have absolutely no audience (if your music is not popular, if you don't have a huge network of people to spread the word about your work and buy your product etc) or you can get great results with it (depending on how much you invested and how much you earned within a year from sales, concerts and all the other private bookings).
I would just like to share one good story with you. When I performed Jazz chord melodies I composed within last month on this big culture event organized Student Culture Center of Nis, I got approached by a person who was in charge of the SCCN (in Serbian its Studentksi Kulturni Centar = SKC) and offered FREE financial help to do following things : 1) Start a jazz program and do it in their building and get all the students through them and get payed through them as well and 2) Record an album but before starting the project to present ALL THE EXPENSES which they would pay and make it basically all happen. All I would have to do there is of course mention when I promote the album and say that I was sponsored or got help from SKC. They are part of city's service which gets funds from government, so we are not talking about private business here but rather government sponsored place. I am very happy that I meet person in charge and his deputy director and needless to say I will accept one of the two if not both offers. Currently I am working on syllabus for Jazz program and the album I hope to do by the end of 2010 (thats will be one of my new years resolutions smile.gif
This just shows that oportunities are endless and its all about what you want and how you want it. You can all make it happen, the way will open if you strongly and passionately look for it. I see no other way of things working anyways. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 14 2009, 11:11 PM) *
- Sign with record label only if it allows you to also sell your work outside of their promotion and/or you get at least all expenses payed plus year in advance money to live nicely and do another record in the meanwhile.

No label will give you this smile.gif If they allow you to sell stuff yourself then for sure you won't get the money for a year and the expenses.

If you do get expenses covered and more money to live then the distribution must be theirs and you get your share. Even this option works only with rich and strong labels. With smaller indie labels you can only get manufacturing, distribution and promotion with no extra fee.

In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 15 2009, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 12:11 AM) *
They are part of city's service which gets funds from government, so we are not talking about private business here but rather government sponsored place. I am very happy that I meet person in charge and his deputy director and needless to say I will accept one of the two if not both offers. Currently I am working on syllabus for Jazz program and the album I hope to do by the end of 2010 (thats will be one of my new years resolutions smile.gif


Thats the way it works for jazz musicians here in Sweden too. I have a lot of friends who are top-rated musicians but still they have to live with support from the government and annual funds. But still they survive - and they can play their beloved music, maybe not millionaires but happy anyway! smile.gif

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM) *
In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif


Agree to that Emir. Very few artists lasts more than a couple of years though. Pete Black from King Diamond (the guitar player) was one of my friends when we grew up. I heard he recently started to play again, but he became out of work when the band was not popular anymore, and started to do other things. What is obvious here is that in order to stay on top, You must at some point fire the record company and be in charge of Your own business - even that they may be a help at the beginning..... Then its of course a matter of what sells - I can't expect to sell any records with a vid showing me playing Swedish folk-music with a bagpipe totally nude.... biggrin.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 15 2009, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 14 2009, 11:42 PM) *
Then its of course a matter of what sells - I can't expect to sell any records with a vid showing me playing Swedish folk-music with a bagpipe totally nude.... biggrin.gif

I am not going to do electronic music which these days sells a lot. I've been playing guitar for so many years and if there are no people who can still enjoy something that you're actually doing with live both hands then I don't want to even think of going that down.


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 15 2009, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM) *
No label will give you this smile.gif If they allow you to sell stuff yourself then for sure you won't get the money for a year and the expenses.

If you do get expenses covered and more money to live then the distribution must be theirs and you get your share. Even this option works only with rich and strong labels. With smaller indie labels you can only get manufacturing, distribution and promotion with no extra fee.

In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif


Thats what I meant Emir. Its And/OR type of deal. If you get expenses covered plus money for one year of easy life I don't care how much label makes of it! Why? Because they covered all the expenses I would have payed out of my pocket (musicians + studio time) and they gave me years worth money to live easy and work on another album. I would rather accept that deal then the one where they give no money but offer distribution exposure manufacturing and promotion. You make music for people to buy it listen to it sure but you also want your product to pay off the time you invested in it. It is business just like any else except it is art! For some people it might take over year to do an album for some it may be meter of months or less. Its all about talent, songwriting and arranging skills, style of music and whole organization behind the project. I do however agree somewhat with your last statement smile.gif When I played Jazz gigs at Berklee I would have people come to and discuss even little details about my performances praise critique and what not. Now when I play in my town I just get audience who enjoy the music and are fascinated by it more or less. I have done 6 gigs within last 3-4 weeks and I haven't had a single person come and ask me specifics about some improvisation solo approach or how or why I did this harmony over that tune etc. You can see the difference and my point here. The music we play is not for everyone smile.gif I play Jazz which is also known as "musicians music". Not everybody can listen to jazz, most people with untrained ear would find it a bit too much over the top with harmonies rhythm and solos, they would rather hear I IV V or I VI II V or I min IV maj etc , their ears love that stuff and endless repetition. Having said all these things it just shows that there are still people who come to listen to music even if they don't understand it as deeply and passionately as we do. From these last 6 solo gigs I had anywhere from 30 up to 100 people on a gig with average of 50 probably for every gig. Thats a lot for the music I play, plus its solo guitar (chord melodies) and guitar over backing tracks as well as guitar with loop station. Another good thing about it is these people are not my closest friends that come to my gig, no I never like to do that when I play, sure I tell my friends and family but I would rather have 50 people that I see for the first time than people who come just to give me support. Thats whats happening with these performances, new people always with exception of 6 to 10 people that are always there on my every performance. If I continue with those, which I should after I finish my last 2 gigs this week, it should eventually lead into a bigger thing where people will know that every Monday and Thursday 8:30 to 12 they can come to listen some quality guitar playing - something new and something they have probably never heard before smile.gif So to sum things up, we don't have an audience ( I would love to have Berklee musicians come to my gigs and talk to them 3 hours straight after gig regarding each improvisation I did etc) but then again we do (the place I perform can get up to 100 max and its always at least half full and guess what its mostly girls that come to listen to me play so you can guess why they are there right? laugh.gif
- point is we have to find a model that works for everybody - we play what we like, they pay as for it and hopefully enjoy our performance smile.gif

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 15 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Thats the way it works for jazz musicians here in Sweden too. I have a lot of friends who are top-rated musicians but still they have to live with support from the government and annual funds. But still they survive - and they can play their beloved music, maybe not millionaires but happy anyway! smile.gif


Hm don't get me wrong Stuffy, I don't have to live of government support and funds. In fact I pay my own salary from my own pocket to government every month more than 100 euros so that I could get a pension and all the rest when I grow old smile.gif This is perfect because I have a product and they without any restrictions offer help. That money comes from governments budget and its meant to be used for cultural things in my town. They figure (and I don't blame them) that if I start a Jazz course or school and do it through them, government and city after all would benefit a lot. To have a Berklee graduate and teacher do the work in Nis, sounds like mission impossible for them - thats why they want it so bad and students would want it as well smile.gif Regarding album , they also see interest in that, just like I do. Why would I gather 5-10.000 euros for album when they can pay all that and offer to pay it for me? This gives me time to write my music do arrangements and try to get people like Joey Calderazzo and Jeff Tain Watts to come play on my record ? Maybe even Christian McBride on the bass... You see where I am going with this.
I think it is fantastic that in my town I was able to find out and run into people who are in charge of this program. Luckily for me I was at the right place and the right time, they loved my solo guitar performance and approached to meet me and offer any help with a lot of respect. If somebody told me this 2 months ago that that would happen here in my town I would say mission impossible but now I realize that nothing and really nothing is impossible. More then ever now I am keeping my eyes and ears open fishing for the right opportunity for the things that I want smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM
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I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif


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intemperateContr...
post Dec 15 2009, 02:00 AM
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I know you are a very experienced musician, Emir - something I aspire to be, and in this sense you are totally
my superior. Forget my own experience but I do know a little. You would need about 4 years (for 1 good album)
and the financial backers. smile.gif You're only going to get better unless you quit! And as you said, you need 1 year
to create a new album, and ( I say ) about 3 years for touring (along with more creations) to include promotion to
make it World Wide (quite possibly less - but at least 3 years at the most, if at all). I think you been doing it wrong
in part. For one, 12 salaries up front? What's up with that? Not sure what you mean by that. I can only take it you
wish to pay others to back your faith 4 the album up front (for their greed instead of love for the music) along with
studio time and all necessary promotion, and to then take all the revenues thereafter for yourself because U paid
the other band members off for having no faith in the future of your success? It's like reverse psychology. Sounds
like you're going for a long shot without the reality of believing it can come true. You may not mean that - it just
sounds like that to me. I wouldn't disrespect you, Mr. Hot - I just want to speak freely (right or wrong) like the music.

Get a good contract with people who believe - friends really do sacrifice for each other! Don't be too negative.
Again, I'm not sure if that's what you meant. I mean, that's what it sounds like - but if you're going solo and want
to be an independent? that's something rappers do. No, you need to be in a great band with friends - and you need
equals you can trust. Maybe we ought to start a musicians union right here, and put those most talented upfront
while all contribute to the unification of progressing this business for us all (Like Wall-Street Investors). I am probably
in the back 60 with my creations but am much better than my humble submissions here on GMC - I am a creator and
innovator and would still put you all before me! So what? Let's consider working together in some way (Consider GMC
a cool beginning to be continued by everyone involved). And, Dudes, (starting with Emir), What do you say? What
can we do about this? I can do more than just talk. (freaking *Bump*).......
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Emir Hot
post Dec 15 2009, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 15 2009, 01:00 AM) *
I am a creator and innovator and would still put you all before me! So what? Let's consider working together in some way (Consider GMC
a cool beginning to be continued by everyone involved). And, Dudes, (starting with Emir), What do you say? What
can we do about this? I can do more than just talk. (freaking *Bump*).......

Then let's inovate something smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 15 2009, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM) *
I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif


Thats exactly my point Emir. To live of music in UK you probably need to perform 4 times a week with those pub type gigs. Even better, get once a week some hotel type event gig, they pay lot more then pub gigs anyways and you can still do the same repertoire. I know what you mean man. Its hard in London, living expenses and life overall is ridiculous. You have to do thing you love (Music) plus another job or if you are up for it do 4+ times a week gigs to survive...
Regarding your comment on illegal music distribution... We need to make albums to be able to promote our work, get gigs, get more connections and opportunities for future and most of all bring our music to people. The way I see it right now is people don't really care if you me or anybody else does the album. They can live without it. If we don't do it somebody else will and they will listen to that and so it goes in the circle. I think the reason for making an album should be not for financial aspect but rather promotion of your work and benefits you could get from that. Thats why I mentioned alternative ways of funding for album. It is ridiculous to invest today 10-20.000 euros in a project which will not bring you even half money back at best case scenario with style of music you and I play. So what if I do album with Joe Calderazzo? How many people do you think in my town will buy the CD because of that ? Very little if any! But I would still do it because I want my music to be played with best out there in the Jazz industry and bring it like that to my audience. It costs money sure, they charge 1000-1500$ per day in studio, I don't have that money but if government will pay for it I am all up for doing it. You get the idea - do it if you are able to, if not don't go crazy - I would be very upset to take loans to do a project that didn't work out just like your album didn't work out like you hope it would, so I am all with you - lesson learned next time look for alternative source of funding via some music organizations or non government organizations what not smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 15 2009, 08:03 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 01:16 AM) *
Hm don't get me wrong Stuffy, I don't have to live of government support and funds. In fact I pay my own salary from my own pocket to government every month more than 100 euros so that I could get a pension and all the rest when I grow old smile.gif This is perfect because I have a product and they without any restrictions offer help. That money comes from governments budget and its meant to be used for cultural things in my town. They figure (and I don't blame them) that if I start a Jazz course or school and do it through them, government and city after all would benefit a lot.


Thats what I meant, the musicians here have wages like everybody else and pay their incomne taxes as well , but they do get financial support from the government to cover a tour/a recording/other cultural events that will benefit the community. By funds (I dont know how to say in English) I really mean that there are organisations like SJRF (Swedish Jazz Association) who gives away prizes to the most creative artists every year. There is also a system that shall help the small jazz clubs doin gigs with well-known artists - eg. basically the system pays the difference to the musicians in wages of what the club can pay and what the musician really costs.... This money You can apply for once each year along with a touring calendar of the gigs You made... the more gigs = the more money You are likely to get. I didn't mean any social welfare or something like that....

//Staffay


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Staffy
post Dec 15 2009, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM) *
I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif


Yeah, I agree to that one Emir! But I dont think things really dont changed regarding this fact over the past 25 years. Yesterdays people were copying on tapes instead.... When I started my musical career (if You can call it that.. tongue.gif ) it was really a DREAM to ever been able to make a record since the monopoly was even greater than today. There was no indie labels, small company's etc. simply because of that the equipment/expenses involved was far too high. So getting a record deal back then was really like winning on Lotto - You was more or less guaranteed success since all the power was in the big company's hands. So You just had two options: Play by the big companys rules and create some crappy commercial piece of music OR become a session player doin small gigs and MAYBE a record once in a while as well as hopping in on others. (like You do, if I got it right?) I will say that it is even better today, since You can at least maybe find some other people/label/studio to share the expenses for an album - also an album doesn't cost some 30-40.000 $ like in the old days.

But to return to the subject, as far I can see the pirating itself hasn't change any of the conditions for beeing a succesful musician and beeing able to make a living out of it. Things are loosening up a little bit in the past years due to other factors on the internet/in the business, but I hope it will be even better in the future... I can very well understand Your frustration over the subject - but at least You have the OPPORTUNITY to make a record, which I didn't when I started out. (just because of the money and the record monopoly)

Summing up: Before the pirating/change of the conditions - independant/creative musicians cant made a living out of selling records. Today - same situation but at least the records can be made.... Therefore I'm positive to the way of how things are changing - cause it cant be any worser than it was before..... smile.gif

//Staffay

This post has been edited by Staffy: Dec 15 2009, 08:54 AM


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Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string
Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60
Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2
Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace
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Neurologi
post Dec 15 2009, 10:40 AM
Post #117


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Sums it up pretty much for me. The voice of reason in an unreasoned climate. Props, Staffy! biggrin.gif


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My gear? Mesa Boogie Triaxis - TC Electronic G-Major - Marshall 9200 Dual MonoBloc (2x100W) - Fender Roc Pro 4x12 (300W) + a whole lot more!
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intemperateContr...
post Dec 15 2009, 11:05 AM
Post #118


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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 14 2009, 07:38 PM) *
Then let's inovate something smile.gif



Had to leave the house and I slept a-while, but haven't faded out on this. I'm thinking... It's not a bad idea,
but Rome wasn't conceived, much less built in a day. Meanwhile, I don't know your current financial situation.
And what Pedja said... I take it since you perform some every week you are in a band that doesn't require you
personally to pay them up front for future gigs? I think to extend the avenue of your immediate income
you need some one who can set up as many gigs in advance as possible (as if you didn't know), and you
might also need to compromise the type of music you like to play to appease a variety different audiences
and atmospheres. But, if you promote yourself in different genres I'm not sure what that would do for your
rep among audiences that prefer the type of music you are now known for. Emir, the cameleon of guitar wizardry.
These are hard choices, Emir. Then again, money is money for the moment and you can always make a comeback.

Ultimately you need a band that can create a real buzz among audiences in your surrounding communities with
simple promotions, and something - maybe some kind of stunt - anything that will get exposure for your band and
get you played on the radio. Like, maybe get your band and a few other bands to do a free concert outside somewhere
(like a mini wood-stock), something that will draw a majority of your audiences combined and perhaps lure some local
media attention as well. Create demos for newer songs and get them to your local audiences and to radio stations.
Invite as many friends as possible and video tape some of your performances along with the audience responding well.
You make great sounding vids for GMC, Can't you do a few demos on your own, make copies, and keep the creative
process flowing? Anyway, I think if you do this consistently you might catch the attention of some local promoters/
investors, and when they look at your work, you want them to see dollar signs! Not like those who look at you and see
dollar signs coming out of your own pocket - yes, you'll always have their support until your money runs out! But for your
future success! Otherwise I think you should stay true to the sounds that you like in retrospect, and connect with
what's current in life and to your audience at the same time. I'm sure there are more ideas and more details that
can be added to this....... Anyway, I will catch you later. cool.gif
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Caelumamittendum
post Dec 15 2009, 11:30 AM
Post #119


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I know this is not a solution to anything, but rather a funny thought I had yesterday.

I always complain about looking back at things I've written thinking: "I could do that so much better now!". I then got to think of all those MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars etc. where you constantly have new updates with quests etc.

Maybe one could somehow imply that to music, I thought. Whenever I had re-written something or found a way to portray whatever it might be I want to have portrayed, I could re-release it! Lex Naturae 0.57, Lex Naturae 1.00, Lex Naturae 1.01 etc. tongue.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Dec 15 2009, 12:41 PM
Post #120


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QUOTE (VictorUK @ Dec 15 2009, 12:01 PM) *
Hahaha cool.gif maybe release patch notes aswell.


Lex Naturae Patch 1.01
- Changed C for a G at 02:27 in 01. January
- Improved stability when played on Philips' CD players.
- Noted performance improvement in guitars
...

rolleyes.gif


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