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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
Pedja Simovic
post Dec 15 2009, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 15 2009, 08:03 AM) *
Thats what I meant, the musicians here have wages like everybody else and pay their incomne taxes as well , but they do get financial support from the government to cover a tour/a recording/other cultural events that will benefit the community. By funds (I dont know how to say in English) I really mean that there are organisations like SJRF (Swedish Jazz Association) who gives away prizes to the most creative artists every year. There is also a system that shall help the small jazz clubs doin gigs with well-known artists - eg. basically the system pays the difference to the musicians in wages of what the club can pay and what the musician really costs.... This money You can apply for once each year along with a touring calendar of the gigs You made... the more gigs = the more money You are likely to get. I didn't mean any social welfare or something like that....

//Staffay


That is fantastic Stuffy. Here in Serbia we can get money and project financed via government type organizations. If you are really working hard you can get endorsements through music shops to use their equipment when you perform. What we don't currently have in Serbia is strong musician union that can protect musicians. There is no standard rate or minimum rate. I know people that play a gig for 10 euros or less (1000 dinars or 500) and thats exactly what musician unions should do in those cases. I do however support idea of independent booking. I manged to book 8 solo gigs in advance and get payed upfront for them. Those were my conditions for 1st month of performance, after that we will arrange a new deal. The point is everybody has to fight their battle and find their path. Those government organizations won't give out money to anyone! You have to create a project, business plan, syllabus and basically show why your program should be picked out of other programs- again I say , it is all out there its just the meter of what we make out of it.


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Staffy
post Dec 15 2009, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 01:05 PM) *
There is no standard rate or minimum rate. I know people that play a gig for 10 euros or less (1000 dinars or 500) and thats exactly what musician unions should do in those cases. I do however support idea of independent booking. I manged to book 8 solo gigs in advance and get payed upfront for them. Those were my conditions for 1st month of performance, after that we will arrange a new deal. The point is everybody has to fight their battle and find their path. Those government organizations won't give out money to anyone! You have to create a project, business plan, syllabus and basically show why your program should be picked out of other programs- again I say , it is all out there its just the meter of what we make out of it.


The musicians union in Sweden do have minimum wages, but the same situation rules here as well - a lot of work is done outside the union because of all taxes, regulations and other thing that makes it difficult for a venue to hire a musician. What I was talking bout was actually the situation for jazz musicians in Sweden since they are experiencing some kind of "protectionism" along with the classical musicians. Of course there are ways for rock bands and such as well, but what Im saying really applies to the top-level jazz musicians like Jacob Karlzon, Anders Bergkrantz, Nils Landgren, Thomas Franck as well as some other well kown international Swedish jazz artists.

The artists that are not so well-known maybe not benefit from these systems, but can still make a living imo. Its really as You are saying, its a matter of beeing creative and finding Your own gigs/opportunities in the business. When I was playing, I was never out of work - the reason I quitted was merely that I could'nt tour anymore because of my family, and had to play locally and got tired of playing the "wrong" music every night - it simply killed my creativity.... But it finally returned again, thank god! smile.gif

Im very happy to hear that things are working out for you - that is really a great example of what is possible even that You are playing a "conniseurs" music. It just proves that everything is possible! smile.gif

//Staffay


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lcsdds
post Dec 21 2009, 09:20 PM
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This thread is saddening. The tone of the article as well as the tone of Emir's posts sounds like musicians are getting tired of fighting the "system" and are slowly giving up. Given the circumstances I can't say I blame them. I can only imagine the blood sweat and tears that goes into making an album.....let alone the YEARS of practice to get proficient on your instrument. It sounds like it is getting near impossible to make a living as a musician and it sounds like the days of the "rich rock star" are long gone......probably never to return. Very sad to say the least...... sad.gif
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Emir Hot
post Dec 22 2009, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 21 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Very sad to say the least...... sad.gif

That's my conclusion as well.


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Fran
post Dec 22 2009, 12:43 AM
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Hey Emir, have you checked this?:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=32724

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 22 2009, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 21 2009, 11:43 PM) *

Yeah, just seen it and replied smile.gif That's a cool one from Jason smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Dec 22 2009, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 12:36 AM) *
That's my conclusion as well.

I really feel for musicians.......there are so many like Emir that have TONS of talent but apparently can't make a living doing it. It doesn't make sense......but a lot of things have changed with the internet.....both good and bad. I would have loved to be a professional musicians......only 2 things stopped me.

1) I got married young and I thought a musicians life would be tough on my family.....
2) Lack of talent........ laugh.gif

Are you pretty much out of the whole music scene Emir or are you still pursuing a music career????
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Emir Hot
post Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 21 2009, 11:59 PM) *
1) I got married young and I thought a musicians life would be tough on my family.....
2) Lack of talent........ laugh.gif

Are you pretty much out of the whole music scene Emir or are you still pursuing a music career????

I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".


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lcsdds
post Dec 22 2009, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM) *
I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".

What is the biggest obstacle to keep you from being able to pay your bills with just music?? I've always wondered how musicians are able to do it with just music. Seems like a lot of them teach but I can't imagine it would pay your bills just teaching. How do guys like Muris do nothing but Music??? Could you do it if you lived in another country where maybe it isn't so expensive to live?? That article was really sad......so many musicians that are so dedicated and basically they get their life's work just stolen........and people even have the nerve to ASK you for your album for free.......JEEZUS...... mad.gif
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Staffy
post Dec 22 2009, 01:37 AM
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In my honest opinion the whole music business is nothing else than crap, even that Im positive to the changes that we are going through now. Musicians never had it easy because of people ripping You off/gaining money at Your work. So nothing really has changed here. The music business is like all other business - its a fight about the money going on, and things like talent, skills etc. has nothing to do with success. Its rather contacts, looks, to be in style and everything bout the music itself that makes up an artist with some few exceptions. I really feel sorry for all talented musicians out there like Emir and others (including You lcsdds, I've been watching Your vids.. smile.gif ) who is struggling with their careers. But as I said, nothing is really new under the sun - beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

//Staffay


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jstcrsn
post Dec 22 2009, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM) *
I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".

Emir , find the free song thread- this is your dedication
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Emir Hot
post Dec 22 2009, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 22 2009, 12:28 AM) *
How do guys like Muris do nothing but Music???

He is the only one in that country that I know who can live of guitar. Trust me I know every single guitarist in Bosnia. He is the lucky one smile.gif If I ever decide to go back and live there I don't think I would be that lucky even though everyone knows me there, TV, radio, magazines, bands, musicians ... He just happened to be the one and I am very happy for him.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 22 2009, 12:37 AM) *
beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

True.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 22 2009, 02:34 AM) *
Emir , find the free song thread- this is your dedication

Link?


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jstcrsn
post Dec 22 2009, 02:25 PM
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Link?[/quote]
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=32726

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Dec 22 2009, 02:26 PM
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lcsdds
post Dec 22 2009, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 22 2009, 01:37 AM) *
In my honest opinion the whole music business is nothing else than crap, even that Im positive to the changes that we are going through now. Musicians never had it easy because of people ripping You off/gaining money at Your work. So nothing really has changed here. The music business is like all other business - its a fight about the money going on, and things like talent, skills etc. has nothing to do with success. Its rather contacts, looks, to be in style and everything bout the music itself that makes up an artist with some few exceptions. I really feel sorry for all talented musicians out there like Emir and others (including You lcsdds, I've been watching Your vids.. smile.gif ) who is struggling with their careers. But as I said, nothing is really new under the sun - beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

//Staffay

I don't know anything about the music business but I did own my own dental practice for about 8 years. I must say that the business world is a very "dirty" world. It seems like the people with the least ethics and principles are the ones who are the most "successful". I finally decided that I didn't want to be "successful".......I am now just and employee and MUCH happier. smile.gif

A lot of these big corporations are nothing but criminals who dress in suits......kind of like the mafia......but at least with the mafia you KNOW where you stand........ laugh.gif
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intemperateContr...
post Dec 22 2009, 04:23 PM
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Emir, Do you know the names/ web addresses of any websites
that pirate your album out to its users? If so, you can
look up who owns that website (the registrar) and the
web-hosting company being used to project it over the net
via the link: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp
In many cases results provided will show the street address,
phone number, IP of the registrar (owner), etc. You can also
start by reporting these pirates to the web-hosting company
of the registrar itself, as well as to agencies like the RIAA
(Recording Industry Association of America)...:
https://www.riaa.com/reportpiracy.php
...and to any other agencies that apply to
regions where these website owners reside.

Also check out ICANN : http://www.icann.org/tr/english.html
ICANN does not control data sharing or distribution, but they
do regulate (Internationally) web address allocation and provide
useful information on how it all works.

Moreover, take some screen shots of the pirating websites
that advertise your album being offered before you report them
- before the owner has a chance to find out it's HOT and removes
the violating web-pages (to maintain proof). Anyway, it's a start.
And for them, perhaps, the nightmare begins.... ph34r.gif
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lcsdds
post Dec 22 2009, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 22 2009, 04:23 PM) *
Emir, Do you know the names/ web addresses of any websites
that pirate your album out to its users? If so, you can
look up who owns that website (the registrar) and the
web-hosting company being used to project it over the net
via the link: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp
In many cases results provided will show the street address,
phone number, IP of the registrar (owner), etc. You can also
start by reporting these pirates to the web-hosting company
of the registrar itself, as well as to agencies like the RIAA
(Recording Industry Association of America)...:
https://www.riaa.com/reportpiracy.php
...and to any other agencies that apply to
regions where these website owners reside.

Also check out ICANN : http://www.icann.org/tr/english.html
ICANN does not control data sharing or distribution, but they
do regulate (Internationally) web address allocation and provide
useful information on how it all works.

Moreover, take some screen shots of the pirating websites
that advertise your album being offered before you report them
- before the owner has a chance to find out it's HOT and removes
the violating web-pages (to maintain proof). Anyway, it's a start.
And for them, perhaps, the nightmare begins.... ph34r.gif

Seems like that would be a full time job trying to keep up with that...... ohmy.gif
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Marek Rojewski
post Dec 22 2009, 07:07 PM
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I don't want to get involved in this discussion to much, but there are few points that one should take into consideration.

1. guitar is a hobby, of course rising skill is a hard work, but so is mixing concrete, cooking in a restaurant etc.etc.etc. In opposite to those other works, guitar bring us enjoyment and happiness, so phrases like "I practiced so much and get nothing from it!" are not 100% true. Also look at other hobbies, for example sport-like activities/working-out --> people put same amount of time/sweat in it, as other put in guitar playing, and the pleasure of doing so is most often enough of a pay.

2. guitar virtuosity isn't a product that rises interest in bigger amounts of people. This means not only, that there isn't "success space" for many pro guitar players, simply because there isn't enough people willing to buy albums of all of them.

3. Saying things like "X people downloaded my music, and so I lose X x(this little x is a mathematical symbol) price of the album" is totally wrong --> some people are on a complete download rampage, download everything. Than they listen to it one or two times, sometimes they even don't notice what is in their 100 downloaded album playlist. The truth is that downloaded albums and "not bought" albums have very little to do with each other. So most probably 1000 downloaded albums result in 50 "not bought" albums, not 1000... I know that I probably wouldn't buy an album if I haven't heard it before anywhere, or just heard some short clip mp3's. To many times I bought crappy music (in my opinion), because I heard only one song, which happened to be the only good song on the whole CD.


4. Thing that I wrote already --> to many artist/bands. Maybe I am wrong, but for me, in the past guitar music was much more "mainstream", and there weren't so many bands worth checking out. Lets say that people in my town are interested in buying 100.000 CD a year, and now they have 100.000 bands to choose from. It is obvious, that only few of those artist will sell many records.


I think I wrote enough for now, just to be clear --> I am against illegal downloads, and buy CD's/MP3 even though it costs a lot. Still I am against writing so much phantasmagoria as it was written in the article. Writing about a baker work was just ridiculous --> baker earns something like 500-600$ per month here in Poland, maybe he want to work 10 hours per day for few years for that money?


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lcsdds
post Dec 22 2009, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Dec 22 2009, 07:07 PM) *
I don't want to get involved in this discussion to much, but there are few points that one should take into consideration.

1. guitar is a hobby, of course rising skill is a hard work, but so is mixing concrete, cooking in a restaurant etc.etc.etc. In opposite to those other works, guitar bring us enjoyment and happiness, so phrases like "I practiced so much and get nothing from it!" are not 100% true. Also look at other hobbies, for example sport-like activities/working-out --> people put same amount of time/sweat in it, as other put in guitar playing, and the pleasure of doing so is most often enough of a pay.

2. guitar virtuosity isn't a product that rises interest in bigger amounts of people. This means not only, that there isn't "success space" for many pro guitar players, simply because there isn't enough people willing to buy albums of all of them.

3. Saying things like "X people downloaded my music, and so I lose X x(this little x is a mathematical symbol) price of the album" is totally wrong --> some people are on a complete download rampage, download everything. Than they listen to it one or two times, sometimes they even don't notice what is in their 100 downloaded album playlist. The truth is that downloaded albums and "not bought" albums have very little to do with each other. So most probably 1000 downloaded albums result in 50 "not bought" albums, not 1000... I know that I probably wouldn't buy an album if I haven't heard it before anywhere, or just heard some short clip mp3's. To many times I bought crappy music (in my opinion), because I heard only one song, which happened to be the only good song on the whole CD.


4. Thing that I wrote already --> to many artist/bands. Maybe I am wrong, but for me, in the past guitar music was much more "mainstream", and there weren't so many bands worth checking out. Lets say that people in my town are interested in buying 100.000 CD a year, and now they have 100.000 bands to choose from. It is obvious, that only few of those artist will sell many records.


I think I wrote enough for now, just to be clear --> I am against illegal downloads, and buy CD's/MP3 even though it costs a lot. Still I am against writing so much phantasmagoria as it was written in the article. Writing about a baker work was just ridiculous --> baker earns something like 500-600$ per month here in Poland, maybe he want to work 10 hours per day for few years for that money?

Agreed.....mostly.... laugh.gif

People/musicians like Emir have consciously approached guitar as a career. To me guitar is a "hobby".....but to others it is a passion as well as a way for them to make a living. If Emir took a year out of his life and spent a lot of money recording an album with the hopes that he would be able to make enough money to live and be able to make another album then it really sucks that people are "stealing" his work and keeping him from being able to do this. Nobody is saying that being a guitarist is more important than being a baker. All we are saying is that if you want to have Emir's album in your collection then pay him for it.......it didn't come out of thin air......somebody had to make it and invested a lot of time, effort and money to make it. If you don't want it then don't buy.....but don't steal it........ smile.gif
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intemperateContr...
post Dec 22 2009, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 22 2009, 11:31 AM) *
Seems like that would be a full time job trying to keep up with that...... ohmy.gif


Anything worth while, like playing guitar for instance, may take some time.
It appears to me, trying to appeal to the conscience of each and every potential
buyer in the entire world not to accept illegal downloads at a discount or even
for free warrants a much bigger challenge than what I suggested. Like the death
of music. If you eliminate the bootlegger, the drinker has no place to go other
than to a legitimate source. But unlike bootlegging or drug dealing, everything
indexed on the internet is stored as data and traceable - you can run but you
can't hide. Take a few down and that fear may create a domino effect. There is
strength in numbers, hence, the musicians union I mentioned earlier. How many
pirate sites can you find in one day? These are only suggestions.

I read an article where a music company is attempting to sue all the people (tens
of thousands) who downloaded music from a confiscated pirate site. Unfortunately,
I did not bookmark that article and can't find it now. Point being, even those
individuals who downloaded the music can be traced (via IP). There is also an
IP Look-up database: http://ip-lookup.net But, this one usually only yields the
users internet provider, through whom you might then obtain more information
on the individual by lawful means. Anyway, when the going gets tough...
Thanks for responding. smile.gif
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JamesT
post Dec 22 2009, 09:54 PM
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At least for one, I can say that my entire music collection was purchased with my own hard earned cash, including some of the albums from the instructors here at GMC. For me, fifteen bucks isn't all that much money if not more than to say thank you to the artist who worked so hard to produce it. My music collection is not exactly huge, but for me it's fun and good to know that I bought each song/album for a reason whether it be because I know or have associations with the artist, or just because I liked one of the songs that I heard on the radio. Each item in my collection carries with it a memory of some sort. I don't think you can get that sort of thing by downloading in mega proportions.

The digital age has surely changed a lot with regard to how any kind of media is distributed and sold. Bon Jovi has a good song called "Last Man Standing" that talks about that somewhat. "The last man standing. Step right up, here's your new career. The last man standing, come and see, hear, feel ... the real thing." Actually, I think he's talking more about something that the digital age can never replace and that is live music.

So, from me to you, I would make a request that you keep on playing. Play it live. No-one can take that away from you. Live music is another part of music that's getting murdered by the digital age too. All in all, I've got to agree that for commercial success in music, we've got to come up with a new business model that embraces the ease with which media can be distributed. I can't say that I have any answers though. Maybe I could write a song about it or something. smile.gif


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