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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
Keilnoth
post Dec 9 2009, 10:39 PM
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legaldownload.net seems to be the site use by Lion Music to sell MP3s of their music. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 10 2009, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 08:22 PM) *
Don't you have any mp3's of them? smile.gif
I'd buy them if you had, would be very interresting to hear smile.gif

No, I only have a couple of original CDs and that's all. That stuff is really early days. I don't mind giving these for free smile.gif Check torrents maybe someone has them.

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 9 2009, 09:39 PM) *
legaldownload.net seems to be the site use by Lion Music to sell MP3s of their music. smile.gif

Well I don't know about that but the link I gave you doesn't take you to legaldownloads. It takes you to my label's site with paypal checkout system.

QUOTE (ItsMe @ Dec 9 2009, 07:47 PM) *
Emir what do you think about streaming flatrates. How much do you earn. I guess its like radio royalties ?

Well I don't earn much for sure but maybe big pop stars do. I have heard the stories that the companies like Itunes earn more than the artist which is not fair either.


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Ctodd
post Dec 10 2009, 12:18 AM
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I would rather give my money directly to the artist than have some record label dip their hand in.

Also, a few weeks ago I had to reformat my computer due to viruses and stuff. I lost ALL my music (which wasnt actually that much that I had on my computer), but it was all music that I had paid for. So what did I do to get back what I had already paid for?

guess...


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audiopaal
post Dec 10 2009, 12:25 AM
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I checked some torrent sites but couldn't find it I'm afraid, which is a good thing smile.gif

Could I tempt you into burning them for me on cds and ship them to me?
I'd pay for it of course smile.gif

I'm really interrested in how much better your old stuff is compared to my new stuff laugh.gif
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Emir Hot
post Dec 10 2009, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 11:25 PM) *
I checked some torrent sites but couldn't find it I'm afraid, which is a good thing smile.gif

Could I tempt you into burning them for me on cds and ship them to me?
I'd pay for it of course smile.gif

I'm really interrested in how much better your old stuff is compared to my new stuff laugh.gif

ok we can do that via PM. This is free of charge smile.gif


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gibsonmatte
post Dec 10 2009, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM) *
That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it.


There are some sites where you can listen to music from lots of different labels like grooveshark.com and lala.com. In SE we also have something called Spotify. Similar to grooveshark but you have to download a client. These are all free but you have to either listen to commercials or see the "banners" on the sites. For a small amount you can register and get rid of the commercials, like a subscription.


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Mandos
post Dec 10 2009, 01:20 PM
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Just a little side note. Take a look at this labs.timesonline.co.uk.

QUOTE
An even more striking thing, perhaps, emerges in this second graph, namely that revenues accrued by artists themselves have in fact risen over the past 5 years, despite the fall in record sales. (All the blue bars in the chart above represent revenues that go directly to artists. As you can see, the ‘blue total’ has risen noticeably.) This is mostly because of live revenues, but also because of the growing amount collected by the PRS on behalf of artists, which accounts for a much bigger chunk of industry revenues than most people realise.


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Keilnoth
post Dec 10 2009, 02:20 PM
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Very interesting Mandos, thanks for the link ! smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 10 2009, 04:56 PM
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Since this seems to be a "hot" topic, I will give my response to the issue. I have some experience from the industry as well as beeing a musician and a studio owner back in the old days.

In my opinion, things are evolving very fast at the moment, and makes radical changes on the market for record distrubution. The only one's who really looses this battle is the big record companys, who cant make money for nothing anymore. Internet is really improving the link between the musicians and their audience, without a big company taking all the revenue. The sales of music has to be reformed in a way where the musicians get a decent percentage of the revenue instead of peanuts from the companies... (Michael Jackson had some 5 % on "Thriller", which is considered to be high....) Also there will be more room for small indepndent labels to make great music as well as artists selling directly to the customers - which is good.

More positive things:

1. The musicians have to benefit from playing live and hence selling their records on the concerts. This is good for both the music itself and the musicians, since all the "plastic" artists will disappear by nature since they are not performing live.

2. The competition amongst musicians will increase - this will enhance the quality of music.

3. Since the musicians will put a lot more effort in to their live act - we are supposed to find a larger number of artists on stage, and the range of venues will increase imo. Also it will be much more attractive to listen to music live, rather than just buy a record.

4. The record business itself will suffer hard from loosing their revenues - but in contrast, the power and the rights management will be handled by the musicians, which is incredible good!!!

This is my opinions in the topic and since the Record Company's have behaved like bloodsuckers against both the customers and the musicians, Im not taking bout the small and indepedent one here, they really had helped to build up this situation by themselves!!!

//Staffay


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Daniel Realpe
post Dec 10 2009, 08:21 PM
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We live in a world under the monetary system that "rewards" work/value with money. So if you think you are getting value out of music then you should pay for it. But as so many things in the system they get corrupted.

We should cut the middle man and pay the artists directly that would motivate people I think. Something like NIN did.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 11 2009, 01:19 AM
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The industry has changed upside down simply put. What was once charged (carrier media with music), now is completely free. It's just a matter of accepting that and finding other ways of earning money as musicians and artists. The record companies are finished story, nothing more to tell there. Money is today made out of author rights payments (broadcasting TV and radio payments, although when the Internet really kicks in, no more of these as well), gigs, band merchandise, other band jobs (advertising, private gigs etc..). This is the only way of incomes for the band.
The rule of the game is still the same tho: make a hit song, spread out your music, be famous and you will get the opportunity to use the fame to gain profit.


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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 02:26 AM
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I would dissagree on some of these since I felt it on my "own skin". No offence Staffy, just my oppinion

QUOTE
1. The musicians have to benefit from playing live and hence selling their records on the concerts. This is good for both the music itself and the musicians, since all the "plastic" artists will disappear by nature since they are not performing live.

I partly agree here. It is good to play live as much as possible, we all enjoy that, but we also have to have time for some private life. I understood that you're saying that music should be like job from 9am 'till 5pm everyday in order to make enough for living. I am supporting the idea of playing one 2 months tour in a year plus some festivals. That would make you profit for the next 6 months and the proper album sales for another 6 months until you release new album. We have to find some time for ourselves as well as for writting music at home, not on the road. You said people should buy our albums on the tour. How can one come to see the show if he doesn't know the songs from the new album. I would first buy the album then go to see the show. Just my oppinion.

QUOTE
2. The competition amongst musicians will increase - this will enhance the quality of music.

Well, because of the situation, many don't play proper live shows. There is no competition anymore. I am seeing legends like Neil Murray from old Whitesnake as well as hundreds of famous guys all over London playing pub gigs for £70 per evening. That's really sad. How can I enhance the quality of my music if I don't have money to make good stuff in the studio? Studios are really expensive if you're going for something that can compare with top trends.

QUOTE
3. Since the musicians will put a lot more effort in to their live act - we are supposed to find a larger number of artists on stage, and the range of venues will increase imo. Also it will be much more attractive to listen to music live, rather than just buy a record.

It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.

QUOTE
4. The record business itself will suffer hard from loosing their revenues - but in contrast, the power and the rights management will be handled by the musicians, which is incredible good!!!

If I was trying to promote music myself (without my label), nobody would ever hear about me. For example in my case - my label's power, contacts, distribution, promotion etc... is something that they have been building for the last 15 years. There is no way I would be reviewed, interviewed and distributed in all world famous rock/metal magazines/webzines and countries without their help. I've tried this before and everytime my CD finished in a rubbish bin. When these guys send an email or a phonecall, things are done in a second. I wouldn't be able to manage that myself, that's just not possible.


To conclude. These independant labels with some history are a great help for artists. They do it all for you. You just cannot dream of getting publicity and distribution the way they can do it. The problem is that people don't buy stuff. People illegaly download music and artists suffer. I am not against internet distribution but please tell me, what does Itunes have to do with my music and why people have to buy stuff there? Just because Apple made good commercial campaign and now taking billions from artist's hard work - all that just because they're called Itunes. They didn't exist when Beatles were making music, now they are taking profit because they are selling their songs. I will never agree with that and that's why I will never buy an Ipod or an Apple Mac - even though I think their computers are great.


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jafomatic
post Dec 11 2009, 03:39 AM
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This is a perfect time to mention again that musicians that are succeeding now are using alternate promotion tools. Go look at Orianthi's career which took a HUGE swing up because after michael jackon's death she kept herself visible. Where?

Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure there's also a myspace following as well.

Or you can look at pomplamoose (jack conte & his girlfriend) plying their trade, successfully, on youtube. They abandoned myspace and have doubled their following by covering popular (not necessarily "pop" but some of that too) songs on youtube so they'd show up in searches. Then you also get to see that "oh, they have some originals" and bam, they become featured.

The lesson in all of that poorly-written monologue is that the WHOLE point is to look beyond the magazines of the 70's and 80's. They're not the only tool.


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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 04:02 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 11 2009, 02:39 AM) *
This is a perfect time to mention again that musicians that are succeeding now are using alternate promotion tools. Go look at Orianthi's career which took a HUGE swing up because after michael jackon's death she kept herself visible. Where?

Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure there's also a myspace following as well.

Or you can look at pomplamoose (jack conte & his girlfriend) plying their trade, successfully, on youtube. They abandoned myspace and have doubled their following by covering popular (not necessarily "pop" but some of that too) songs on youtube so they'd show up in searches. Then you also get to see that "oh, they have some originals" and bam, they become featured.

The lesson in all of that poorly-written monologue is that the WHOLE point is to look beyond the magazines of the 70's and 80's. They're not the only tool.

I said I am not against internet promotion and distribution apart from some companies that are making money for doing nothing (if you read my previous post about Itunes).

If you believe that what you've said can make an artist make a living of music by himself then try this:

1. Spend a year writting songs/lyrics/arrangements
2. Spend a month or two recording a demo for it
3. Spend 2 months rehearsing songs for the real recording
4. Call some good musicians to play on your real record and pay them (In my case I needed a good drummer and singer if I wanted some genuine rock stuff, because of these famous guys I actually sold something)
5. Find a good studio and spend another 3-4 months for the recording/mixing - and of course pay for it
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...

Please tell me after 2 years of hard work how much did you earn and how much did you spend?


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jafomatic
post Dec 11 2009, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 10 2009, 09:02 PM) *
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...


They put covers on youtube, properly tagged, for marketing. They played and recorded everything themselves in their bedroom studios and they're selling mp3's of their originals through their own website.

There's the way that those two (the pomplamoose folks) learned to embrace the new tools. Here's how I'd do it if I were you:

1. Sign up to do a few of the "famous song" lessons for GMC, especially shreddy ones that people would search for on youtube
2. Properly tag the videos that you copy to youtube
3. Frequently update the social networking feed of your choice with relevant stuff "In the studio recording new blah blah, here's a link to a pic of us jamming, blah blah"
4. more importantly, also update those streams with "we're going to be playing at such-and-such club this weekend."
5. Email jack conte and ask how he set up his one-page e-commerce site to sell his own music.
6. Do that.

You have an edge on that Conte guy, in that you are a better trained musician and more able technician on your chosen instrment. He may have an edge (or two) in that he seems to have no day job and can play a ton of instruments. He has a small disadvantage that his girlfriend's voice gets really annoying after a few songs. smile.gif

The point is that they appear to have found a way to "make it" work. I'm sorry that they didn't go through the same amount of pain that you did. I respectfully disagree that your posted list is "the only way" but in any event, I really hope that I didn't tick you off.





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blindwillie
post Dec 11 2009, 09:06 AM
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I have the greatest respect for you Emir but I disagre with this part:
QUOTE
If you believe that what you've said can make an artist make a living of music by himself then try this:

1. Spend a year writting songs/lyrics/arrangements
2. Spend a month or two recording a demo for it
3. Spend 2 months rehearsing songs for the real recording
4. Call some good musicians to play on your real record and pay them (In my case I needed a good drummer and singer if I wanted some genuine rock stuff, because of these famous guys I actually sold something)
5. Find a good studio and spend another 3-4 months for the recording/mixing - and of course pay for it
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...

Please tell me after 2 years of hard work how much did you earn and how much did you spend?

This implies that you expect that _anybody_ following your plan should be guaranteed big success.
I think you know very well that's not the way things work. As in _any_ profession, you have to find a big enough group of customers that's appealed by whatever you are selling. The fact that you have a plan and have or have not certain skills in an area and have put in a certain amount of effort is in no way, and have never been, a guarantee to success, not even enough to get a descent job. Put it in perspective to other professions. It's not important what you want or how you want to do it. What's important is how the guys with the money wants it.

It is not a matter of if I can succed with your plan or not. The point is that there are artists that HAVE succeded indepent from the big labels. (Well, success is in the eye of the beholder. They don't have their own Neverland, but themself consider it a success)
Maybe there is something wrong with your plan? Maybe you have to change your musical style?
Being a succesful, rich, famous guitarist in a world that isn't really into guitarbased music is a tough task. And with thousands and thousands and thousands of great, very skilled guitarists it will be very hard to find your own space out there.

And there is nothing special with ex-superstars playing on pubs for a living. Should a relative short time of success guarantee you to live the rest of your life in welth? It's very sad to see, I agree with that, but that's the outcome of the short life cycle of everything now. We think we have to get new things and distractions all the time. Buy ourselfs happy. This way of living is a disadvantage for the "good" artists, the ones with skills. Those who gain from it are the "shooting stars" that fade away as quick as they appeared. We just want the very very latest, give me something new all the the time, more and more and more.


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Staffy
post Dec 11 2009, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:26 AM) *
I would dissagree on some of these since I felt it on my "own skin". No offence Staffy, just my oppinion


I partly agree here. It is good to play live as much as possible, we all enjoy that, but we also have to have time for some private life. I understood that you're saying that music should be like job from 9am 'till 5pm everyday in order to make enough for living. I am supporting the idea of playing one 2 months tour in a year plus some festivals. That would make you profit for the next 6 months and the proper album sales for another 6 months until you release new album. We have to find some time for ourselves as well as for writting music at home, not on the road. You said people should buy our albums on the tour. How can one come to see the show if he doesn't know the songs from the new album. I would first buy the album then go to see the show. Just my oppinion.


Well, because of the situation, many don't play proper live shows. There is no competition anymore. I am seeing legends like Neil Murray from old Whitesnake as well as hundreds of famous guys all over London playing pub gigs for £70 per evening. That's really sad. How can I enhance the quality of my music if I don't have money to make good stuff in the studio? Studios are really expensive if you're going for something that can compare with top trends.


It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.


If I was trying to promote music myself (without my label), nobody would ever hear about me. For example in my case - my label's power, contacts, distribution, promotion etc... is something that they have been building for the last 15 years. There is no way I would be reviewed, interviewed and distributed in all world famous rock/metal magazines/webzines and countries without their help. I've tried this before and everytime my CD finished in a rubbish bin. When these guys send an email or a phonecall, things are done in a second. I wouldn't be able to manage that myself, that's just not possible.


To conclude. These independant labels with some history are a great help for artists. They do it all for you. You just cannot dream of getting publicity and distribution the way they can do it. The problem is that people don't buy stuff. People illegaly download music and artists suffer. I am not against internet distribution but please tell me, what does Itunes have to do with my music and why people have to buy stuff there? Just because Apple made good commercial campaign and now taking billions from artist's hard work - all that just because they're called Itunes. They didn't exist when Beatles were making music, now they are taking profit because they are selling their songs. I will never agree with that and that's why I will never buy an Ipod or an Apple Mac - even though I think their computers are great.


Nah, Im not sticky... smile.gif Its an interesting discussion, and we all have our thoughts about this... but I still dont agree to some of Your arguments, with no offense... tongue.gif

I can see the point in some of Your arguments, but I think the situation I speaking of will occur in the future, it has already begun here in Seden imo. My friends that was completely out of work in the 80's started to earn money again on just live gigs, playing "sophisticated" music like jazz & blues. And they even get paid! When I was touring back in the 80's we had lousy wages, we had to play the latest hit songs - which was impossible because of all fake production in the studios and no one was happy, nor we, nor the audience. If we shall speak of what really killed live music back then, its MTV. The music scene in my area has never been so active as at the moment, there is plenty of concerts with good bands. Deep Purple was here a while ago, playing in a small town, that would never happen 20 years back since they were just doing the arena gigs.

I think the main issue here is what You expect from music - there is really one big important question:
Are You playing music to be a millionaire or for the love of music? To do the first, You must be extremely lucky and have a good timing with the actual trends, even that You might be a superstar on Your instrument. Also music evolves much faster today than before, and You won't probably last for that long the "old" artists done. But if You are satisfied with putting food on the table, feeding the kids and have a decent living - then there is more opportunities than ever before in the music business imo.

To comment what You said in the beginning, I dont mean that it shall be like a 9-5 job, it has never been and will never be, but the musicians must find new ways to sell their music and new way's to make a living out of it. You are talking bout the "old" situation where bands tour a little, record an album and then had a vacation and then went from the beginning again. This is really obsolete imo. and must change, a musician today must be ready to play whenever its necessary in order to promote the music - otherwise there will be no record sales or tickets sold. The bands You mention is really bad examples imo. since they got out of date many years ago... (even that I personally love them and think its sad that a great guitar player like Gary Moore have to play in front of 300 people) I was trying to broaden the discussion to music in general and its future role in society.

The fact is really that the kids are downloading music for free, I dont personally support it - I buy the records I like in order to support the artists, but I'm thinking of sending the money directly to the artists instead of buying their records since their record labels are eating the money anyway. And i disagree with You about first buying the record and then see the band live - I believe that the kids today are most likely to see some cool vids on Youtube, download some songs illegaly and then watch the band. Maybe then at the concert they will buy the record.....

Also its not a big issue anymore to record a great album since the studio costs gone down drastically the past 10-20 years, in the 80's You paid bout 800/hour for a top-notch studio. Today You can get it for much less! I will say that it is possible to record an album for some 2-4000$ and that is peanuts today compared to what the marketing will cost. But hey! If we record the album, give it away free at the internet to promote our coming tour, maybe then would some people come and see us??? I think thats the way its gonna be, it wont suit everybody but at least there will be one unnecessary link removed - the big record companys.

I agree to You about the small independent labels though - and there will be much more room for them in the future, there's no need to have some Sony/CBS or Warner Brothers label to make a success, just some hard work, talent and good music. The future is to me very exciting and I see the Internet vs. the record industry as a big issue that will change the way music is consumed forever.

//Staffay


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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Dec 11 2009, 08:06 AM) *
This implies that you expect that _anybody_ following your plan should be guaranteed big success.

No, I didn't say that smile.gif That was my reply to Jafomatic's post where I understood that if you're selling stuff yourself, using youtube and appear in search engines would have a better result that being a signed artist where someone else is helping you with promotion and the rest. Then I suggested the list of things to try and see if that's a real formula for success. I think it is not.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 11 2009, 09:07 AM) *
The bands You mention is really bad examples imo. since they got out of date many years ago...

smile.gif I mentioned the ones that I think are worth mentioning if we're talking about rock legends and the quality of music. Unlike Nirvana and similar bands that killed everything that was good in 90's, these bands know how to hold C major chord at least smile.gif The point is that they are all from the UK and I got shocked when one of my guitar teachers at university in London didn't know that Smoke on the Water is Deep Purple song. The guy has masters degree for guitar. If I had to learn to play guitar from Nirvana-like bands, I would have never become a guitarist. All you hear in my playing comes from the bands I mentioned. That's of course in my case.


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post Dec 11 2009, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE
It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.


Don't really see the point here.

Young people listen to hip hop, rap, rnb and those kind of styles. It's pretty normal that Gary Moore and Deep Purple can't fill the concert halls anymore. And I am a fan of Gary Moore. smile.gif

But U2, Radiohead and Pearl Jam still play in front of 100'000 people and do live concerts on YouTube...

The modern music revolution came because of the majors and other money makers who want more bands, more music, more concerts, more money... Internet is a tool which help to broadcast easily and share information. But the majors forgot that people were able to speak to each other easily and to broadcast as well.

Majors are trying to make the people pay to broadcast and share. But that's old fashioned. You cannot do that the same way you ask a supermarket to pay licence to broadcast music in front of the butcher shop.

People have to re-think the way they are earning money *with* the internet.
But you have to stop thinking of the good old days. They are over.

All the big old media companies are complaining today. Newspaper, book sellers, TV stations, guitar teachers ?, etc... The day they will all be bankrupted (except the guitar teachers obviously wink.gif) the market will perhaps be much more sane.


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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 11 2009, 01:16 PM) *
Young people listen to hip hop, rap, rnb and those kind of styles. It's pretty normal that Gary Moore and Deep Purple can't fill the concert halls anymore.

Exactly smile.gif So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday? Shall we start making hip-hop music or there is a way to make a living of music that we spent years learning? I think that decision to be musician nowadays is the most risky move you can make. All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly. I like my guitar and I am happy to play small clubs and teach but no way I can live of that. I wish I was a plumber smile.gif These guys are making serious money.


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