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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
audiopaal
post Dec 11 2009, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM) *
All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly.

That's unfortunate, as I believe your songwriting skills (from hearing your album) is amazing.
But you'll record another album hopefully!? smile.gif
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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 11 2009, 01:41 PM) *
That's unfortunate, as I believe your songwriting skills (from hearing your album) is amazing.
But you'll record another album hopefully!? smile.gif

No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.


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Keilnoth
post Dec 11 2009, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE
So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday?


Actually, I am working 8 hours a day and practicing 2 hours so I make serious money. wink.gif

But well, I agree, it's a sad story. I'd say, what's important is to enjoy what you do but that certainly sounds a bit romantic. tongue.gif



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Emir Hot
post Dec 11 2009, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 11 2009, 01:47 PM) *
what's important is to enjoy what you do but that certainly sounds a bit romantic. tongue.gif

And that's all we can have smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 11 2009, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM) *
No, I didn't say that smile.gif That was my reply to Jafomatic's post where I understood that if you're selling stuff yourself, using youtube and appear in search engines would have a better result that being a signed artist where someone else is helping you with promotion and the rest. Then I suggested the list of things to try and see if that's a real formula for success. I think it is not.


I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Dec 11 2009, 03:06 PM


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jafomatic
post Dec 11 2009, 03:08 PM
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Apparently the labels can't advertise well enough. I think that's what all this compels me to believe. Deep purple can't fill a hall? Then deep purple didn't adapt. Some guy only wants to fill a club instead of using his songwriting ability to sell popsongs back to those labels? Someone else not adapting!

It just seems like more proof that it's always been better to adapt than to hold fast and die.



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intemperateContr...
post Dec 11 2009, 03:17 PM
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Hard to come up with a solution to that problem.
Anything you can listen to or view on-line is
recordable using certain software. Making it less
accessible without a purchase might help some,
but then again there's a file sharing issue.

Perhaps only selling the demo, and making the
album accessible to concert attendees only (or
to be included with the purchase price of the
ticket sales), along with whatever other band
memorabilia is available. Pirating might then
be more conspicuous to any one releasing any
illegal copies on-line or otherwise. I don't
know, maybe it's impossible to fully prevent
pirating, but am sure there is an intelligent
solution that could tip the scales more
favorably to the musicians. Anyway,
sorry to hear that. dry.gif
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 11 2009, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:08 PM) *
Apparently the labels can't advertise well enough. I think that's what all this compels me to believe. Deep purple can't fill a hall? Then deep purple didn't adapt. Some guy only wants to fill a club instead of using his songwriting ability to sell popsongs back to those labels? Someone else not adapting!

It just seems like more proof that it's always been better to adapt than to hold fast and die.


It depends my friend. The labels do a lot in terms of advertising, what independent artists simply cannot afford. TV and radio commercials being one part of that. No way independent artist could get a TV ad by himself, it's too expensive. I'm no expert in the record label business tho, but I think they can do better for the signed artists in present time. On the other hand, I said clearly that they are monopolists with profit on their mind, so that explains WHY they put so much effort. Artist sign because they want promotion, and promotion is easily get via labels, with some guarantee, as opposed to little guarantee when choosing to go alone. It's a hard road that artists will rarely choose. I think most artists would join big label if they had a chance, because they understand that promotion is there, and they can spread out their music without needing to do that job for themselves.
Regarding Deep Purple, they are an old band, that was on top of their career a while ago. People are interested in a bit different music today, it's the way things flow. Constant change is important for humans, the music is not holding place, it's changing form all the time. This is why they cannot fill the halls.


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audiopaal
post Dec 11 2009, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM) *
No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.

I know what you mean...
Still unfortunate though sad.gif

I can record everything I need at home, except for drums..
So hopefully the studiotime won't be too expensive when I decide to lay down some real drums smile.gif

Hehe, I already know I'll never get back the money I spent on studiogear but hopefully some people will like what I write.
If not, I'll just have to release a Hip Hop album laugh.gif
Audiopaal & the 2 hip 2 hops feat. Emir Hot & the stringbenders tongue.gif

Jokes aside though, I really hope you'll make some money off your music in the future!
You deserve that much smile.gif
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Staffy
post Dec 11 2009, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM) *
smile.gif I mentioned the ones that I think are worth mentioning if we're talking about rock legends and the quality of music. Unlike Nirvana and similar bands that killed everything that was good in 90's, these bands know how to hold C major chord at least smile.gif The point is that they are all from the UK and I got shocked when one of my guitar teachers at university in London didn't know that Smoke on the Water is Deep Purple song. The guy has masters degree for guitar. If I had to learn to play guitar from Nirvana-like bands, I would have never become a guitarist. All you hear in my playing comes from the bands I mentioned. That's of course in my case.


I will definitely agree to this, Steve Lukather said in an interview in the late 90's that "I haven't heard a new band with a good guitar player since 1982...", but the point here is that if You wanna make the "big" money, song-writing and beeing member of a band that hits the top 40 is the way to go. I think there's still room for great guitar playing in the new styles that are emerging, but as someone else said here: the old days are gone! But it is also a question of trends, maybe in some years we will have a 70's revival or 80's ... (which I personally NOT longing for sad.gif ) Everything is really a balance between Your own imagination bout music and the commercial aspects. All musicians have to "sell out" themselves a little bit, it's just a question of how much..... Personally I quitted working professionally long time ago since I felt like a prostitute - just playing what people wanted to hear, not what I was liking myself. Its all about to find a balance really.

QUOTE
I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.


I couldn't have said this better myself, but in my belief the battle has just started, we're gonna see drastic changes in how music is to be distrubuted, consumed and spread through the internet. And this will benefit the really GOOD musicians in my belief, such as Emir smile.gif The one's who can't play or sing and has been pitch-shifted in the control, they will simply be gone in the future. Thanks heaven for that!!!! biggrin.gif

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Keilnoth
post Dec 11 2009, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:23 PM) *
It depends my friend. The labels do a lot in terms of advertising, what independent artists simply cannot afford. TV and radio commercials being one part of that. No way independent artist could get a TV ad by himself, it's too expensive.


I personnaly never discovered any *good* band on a TV commercial. smile.gif
Perhaps some on the radio. But way lot more on GMC, by friends or on Youtube...



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 12 2009, 03:17 AM
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Perhaps you can name the bands and we can discuss the situation further?


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kahall
post Dec 12 2009, 06:38 AM
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I don't know if it is my age, the internet, or I just don't have as much money left over as I used to have but I don't buy as much music as I used to. When I was younger I would go into the record store and listen to a few songs off of an album and buy it. Sometime the album was not really that good but I had already bought it. I have a closet shelf with some of them on it. Now I just check them out on Youtube, Itunes and all over the net and the cd better be chock full of stuff I really like a lot for me to buy it.
I did go through the downloading of free music faze with Napster when it first came out but I have not done that or other ways since 98 or 99 and most if it is gone now. I buy it if I want it for various reasons but I know there are tons of people who don't since I see the free stuff when I work on their computers. I discourage it and tell them it might be the cause of the their problem in the first place, which it is a lot of the time, but that is really all one can do.
I don't know what the answer is.

Sorry it isn't working out for you Emir. You have to do what you have to do but you should always be looking for an opportunity to jump back into it. You have too much invested in it and then there is the fact that you are an awesome guitarist. I'm pulling for ya man. On a side note I went back and reread your story on myspace. I forgot you actually played in a band called RETARD back in the "old" days. That might be a great marketing thing over here now. Everybody is so PC it just might work. Oh, it would offend some, probably a lot of people, but have you watched a music award show lately? As my grandma used to say....my woooord...oh well my lands....oh no....well huuuuh...ohhh!


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post Dec 12 2009, 07:36 AM
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If the band is good they'll make money if they are sensible. Look at Radiohead. They put the entire album online and said pay what you want for it and they made millions on the album because although some people obviously got the album for free, other people were giving way more than the album would cost them normally and it opened up their music to more people. I think it's just a case of people haven't really learnt to use the internet effectively yet. They are slowly getting around to it as now legal programs like Spotify give us a chance to listen to music before buying and I think over the next few years they'll really make the most out of the potential of the internet.


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Caelumamittendum
post Dec 12 2009, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Dec 12 2009, 07:36 AM) *
If the band is good they'll make money if they are sensible. Look at Radiohead. They put the entire album online and said pay what you want for it and they made millions on the album because although some people obviously got the album for free, other people were giving way more than the album would cost them normally and it opened up their music to more people. I think it's just a case of people haven't really learnt to use the internet effectively yet. They are slowly getting around to it as now legal programs like Spotify give us a chance to listen to music before buying and I think over the next few years they'll really make the most out of the potential of the internet.


Haven't read the entire topic completely, but was gonna mention Saul Williams and Radiohead. I know things are different when being on a record label, but then maybe musicians need to be without record labels - and do things some other way.

Oh, Chroma Key (Kevin Moore, former Dream Theater) has (or at least used to) all their songs available on their official home page too.

Cannot really think of anything more to add to the topic, as I too think something has to be re-invented, but I don't know how though.


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Staffy
post Dec 12 2009, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 12 2009, 12:27 PM) *
Cannot really think of anything more to add to the topic, as I too think something has to be re-invented, but I don't know how though.


I dont think no one really know whats gonna happen, but there will for sure be a change in the way of consuming/selling/distribution of music. Time will show... smile.gif

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blindwillie
post Dec 12 2009, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM) *
Exactly smile.gif So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday? Shall we start making hip-hop music or there is a way to make a living of music that we spent years learning? I think that decision to be musician nowadays is the most risky move you can make. All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly. I like my guitar and I am happy to play small clubs and teach but no way I can live of that. I wish I was a plumber smile.gif These guys are making serious money.


That's what I was getting at. If you want to make money out of music then guitar and metal may be the wrong choise. You probably will have to sell your soul and convert to a broader genre. IMO I'd say stick to what you like, it will be the best choise in the end. Money will help you get through the day but it _will_not_ buy you happy.
Play for the joy of it or the money? To me the answer is clear.
A shame though to know all this great musicians (incl. you Emir and many here) and pretty much know they aren't the ones who will top the charts.
Mmmm plumbers... yes. And caarpenters an electricians. That's where the money is smile.gif Definetly made the wrong choise once upon the time. I was aiming for elecrician. We've done some repairs and renovation of our house this fall (too). They know how to charge you. They completly control the market and can pick the jobs that makes the most money.

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM) *
No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.

That food-thing is a pain. Having to t eat and sleep really limits our choises. smile.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:05 PM) *
I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.

True about labels and their promoting of artists, but they wont promote everybody they've signed. Only a lucky few will get the backing to rise to fame. All others will get close to nothing at a big label.

Great discussion. Interesting to hear your opinions.

This post has been edited by blindwillie: Dec 12 2009, 02:06 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 12 2009, 02:25 PM
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This is very interesting thread. It started with very serious accusation, the murder of music. For some styles and artists it is murder for other it it birth in a way. I agree to a lot of things you guys said about both sides. Internet today has changed the way music industry works drastically. Today you can via Youtube, Facebook, Myspace and Twitter get a massive following. You don't need the record companies to do internet marketing for you, anybody can do it, it comes down to how much time and effort are you willing to put into it. We then have our own websites to promote distribute and sell service that we offer. Here no record company or any 3rd party (maybe Paypal with exception smile.gif takes cut from you. You can take all these internet marketing tools and lead them onto your website. That will result into massive traffic which will eventually lead to sales. Again it comes down to what you are selling ? If thats an album, you have to market it with songs on Youtube (videos do wonders) and do some useful tags. Publishing music articles and periodicals helps a lot. It all leads back where it needs to lead. Because of all this I can see why today many independent artist, perhaps even non professional musician can make a great living out of this situation. They mostly record things in their home, their costs are minimum and with proper marketing and decent product that could make great money. For guys like Emir and others who invested money into their album and project, this can be very bad. For one, once you sign the record deal with record company you are pretty much in their hands or your fate is in their hands. You can't market things on your own, you can't sell things independently or open network on your own to earn extra money, you are basically sitting there and waiting for them to give you report whats happening. I don't like this but I can certainly understand why Emir did it. When you live in UK with expenses the way they are you need to find a way to make a good living out of music you do. Record companies can definitely help in that area. In Serbia with 6 million people population things are much simpler. Here you can get people to come to your gigs via Facebook events and if you want whole country to know about you there are 3 main televisions that you should attend : RTS (national television), TV PINK (the most famous and watched program) and B92. These TV channels have massive following and I can tell you I have been to 2 out of 3 of these. They certainly mean a lot because then you get calls for radio shows and paper interviews as well as other TV shows. For Emir this is probably mission impossible in UK, instrumental guitar music or even metal type music with lyrics on BBC? I don't think so smile.gif
All I am saying is things vary from country to country, from style to style and from situation to situation. Singer songwriter I am playing with Oliver Katic has gotten ultra famous through show called I got talent on TV Pink. He is now into semi finals all thanks to one performance with acoustic guitar of Frank Sinatra's standard My Way. After this happened he got so many calls from club owners to get him to perform in their place. He now does one gig in our town Nis on Tuesday, and around 3 other gigs in Belgrade, Novi Sad or some smaller place where they arrange concert for him. Needless to say he makes great money and he doesn't even have an album out yet! He performs rock and pop tunes and audience love it. Talk about taking advantage of situations that things around you offer...
I know for my first real album I will not sign a record deal unless that deal in advance gives me money to cover all the expenses (studio time + pro musicians) and on top of that extra money for at least a year of easy life smile.gif This is why I will rather record it with pro musicians in studio that my friends owe and then distribute it online via my website, facebook myspace and all the rest. Of course on live gigs I will be selling albums as well. I strongly believe that culture of buying hard copy CD is behind us and that internet revolution has taken big lead over it. Now people can download your whole album on your website just by making one quick and easy payment. I would rather sell my album for 5$ on my site then have it in store for 15$ and not sell a single copy.
Sorry for the long message, hope it made sense smile.gif


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Neurologi
post Dec 13 2009, 10:23 AM
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There is but one problem with some or most of the posts made thus far and that is the "Let's wait and see!" attitude underlying much of it. This single remark has contributed much to the inaction of the last ten years in dealing with the advent of the digital music revolution. The internet is nothing new and neither is digital media distribution. Only its popularity, use of it and so on has changed. It is a long and drawn out revolution compared to say the Bolshevik Revolution but a revolution nonetheless. As the arguments put forth in this topic reveal ... it is quite clear what the state of the music industry is today and the examples of how to deal with it on so many levels. To sum it up. Sink or swim. Those are the only two choices. Taking the reactive rather the proactive route is a surefire way to kill "your" music -- not music itself. Deal with it.


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Rik Veldhuizen
post Dec 13 2009, 10:49 AM
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Sad to hear you won't continue your professional music career, Emir. I've got your Sevdah Metal album (bought it through iTunes Store, no piracy here smile.gif and am impressed by the song quality.

I do agree with some of the posts here, in that today the power of online and online communities is shocking to most established organizations. The numbers (visits, usage, etc.) of 'channels' like youtube, google (organic search) etc are hard to grasp and the fact is, if you want to take advantage of today's factual usage, you need to be part of it. It is very hard to try to touch your audience by your own instigation. They need to find you somehow. Whether it is through simple search keywords on google or youtube, or through communities, or differently, it is what the audience these days is using. Even my 8 and 6 year old daughters are only using youtube to search for music clips. No TV, just youtube.

Not sure I'm adding anything to the discussion, so better stop here smile.gif
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