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> The Murder Of Music, Think Before You Act
Kristofer Dahl
post Dec 13 2009, 04:18 PM
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This is a very interesting and hot topic.

Personally I agree that what we are seeing now might very well be the murder of some music/bands - but more importantly the murdering of a business model which isn't very well adapted to today's market/reality.

I hope that in a near future there will be lots of good legal alternatives which gives both listeners and musicians the credit they deserve.

This in combination with the Internet / modern technology could result in a boost of new cool music like we never seen it before! I am hoping for this not only as a fan but of course as an aspiring musician as well.


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Rik Veldhuizen
post Dec 13 2009, 04:19 PM
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Selling 1000 CDs is great...! I can't even get my own wife to listen to the covers I've recorded, unless she sings it herself biggrin.gif
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NoSkill
post Dec 13 2009, 04:24 PM
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This is an interesting topic. The last time I read, stealing intellectual property was considered a crime. I believe this to be true in every country represented by members, instructors and staff at GMC. I value a good debate. Especially if we are the ones setting policy. In that case, our debate and the fruit of it, are essential. However, when we start debating the efficacy of international law, and debating the appropriateness of theft of intellectual property, I have to show my age and my rigidity. Theft is theft. If you steal Emir's album, then you are criminalizing yourself for $16.00. Is that the amount that one places on their ethics and morality?

I agree, however, that too much money goes to the middle man. This is true EVERYWHERE! We cry about the middle man, but with him/her, I don't know who Emir or Borislav are. I would not hear of Blind Guardian and David Walliman would be, David who? As a quasi-musician and heartfelt music lover, I operate with one rule, "It costs what it costs."

Now, I will make an admission of guilt. Last night, while my family decorated our Christmas tree, I downloaded and played the Bony M. Christmas album. I am a hypocrite in this sense, but I mention this to demonstrate that no matter how rigid my beliefs are, and how strongly I feel about theft, I am not without fault. As my second admission of the day, I own that same Christmas album. I just didn't want to try and find where the hell it is.

Have a good day. I'm back to Dom7 arpeggios for my task master.

`Skill

Edited for spelling.

This post has been edited by NoSkill: Dec 13 2009, 04:26 PM


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 02:49 PM) *
No worries, man. I just see that the same arguments are being used now as over five years ago when I first became aware of this phenomenon of the digital music revolution and how to deal with it as it applies to the music industry. I don't see any progress even after all this time judging by the responses here. Preconceived notions and old habits of doing business are the culprit in my opinion and it is exactly that - my opinion. The switch in thinking has to be made and invalidating any information that comes one's way on the basis of irrelevant criteria only reduces your palette of choices from which to draw from.


Agreeing to that. But what we must bear in mind is that there are a "stubborness" in the business, both with the business itself and the crowd. For instance, I begun working with the internet in the early 90's and mobile phones shortly after. It took until 2000 before internet actually was emerging and even that SMS was introduced in 97-98 people dont understood how to use it until 2003-2004.....
The point here, however, is that if You are in the frontline of new technolgy/thinking, You have a lot of more choices and is much more likely to gain success.

Also we must bear in mind that the way people consume music has already changed - eg. they are listening by their computers and mobile phones instead of buying CD's. So why should we try to market a CD??? It's stupid in my belief, and in my opinion a new media must be adopted as well as a new high-end format that can take advantage of the new digital technique.

Btw. I worked as a touring musician for 15 years, made several recordings as a sideman with artists like Tonjua Hawkins, Ibriza Jusic, Jimmy Nielsen band as well as worked at Big Ben Music (record company) and was running a business as studio owner in the 80's. So what I'm saying is not solely based on my own crappy theories... tongue.gif


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Emir Hot
post Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 02:07 PM) *
if someone walked up to you and said i will sell your cd and make you onr million dollars but for every one you make i will make 9 mill. and without him you will probably make 50.000 .would you do it. is that wrong for that person to profit like that .well that is what the record campanies do. i understand about the knew media and it is effective but not like posters mass media t.v. exposure . to me all are good the problem lies in the STEALING in either one

I would accept this offer. With that money I would be able to continue myself when the contract finishes. Record labels have to live of something. The service they provide is often something that we can't do ourselves. Their way of promotion and distribution is far more developed than what we can do alone. Also they help you with money to finish your product. I got some money for the studio plus they paid for all manufacturing, distribution, promotion etc... I only paid my musicians and the rest of the studio costs.

It might be true that their share is much bigger but that's how you get into the market with the big names and make your own name. You don't have to stay with the label for life.

Now, this would only work if people legaly buy your stuff. Imagine that with all their promotional work you don't cover what you invested then how can you possibly cover the cost without them? No Google or Youtube can help you get your money back, that's wrong thinking in my oppinion.

Either way (with the label or without) it's not working and the problem is in illegal distribution, filesharing and copying someone else's work. Very big names and awesome musicians, sometimes true legends, are slowly giving up.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 03:32 PM) *
Ibriza Jusic

I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM) *
I would accept this offer. With that money I would be able to continue myself when the contract finishes. Record labels have to live of something. The service they provide is often something that we can't do ourselves. Their way of promotion and distribution is far more developed than what we can do alone. Also they help you with money to finish your product. I got some money for the studio plus they paid for all manufacturing, distribution, promotion etc... I only paid my musicians and the rest of the studio costs.

It might be true that their share is much bigger but that's how you get into the market with the big names and make your own name. You don't have to stay with the label for life.

Now, this would only work if people legaly buy your stuff. Imagine that with all their promotional work you don't cover what you invested then how can you possibly cover the cost without them? No Google or Youtube can help you get your money back, that's wrong thinking in my oppinion.

Either way (with the label or without) it's not working and the problem is in illegal distribution, filesharing and copying someone else's work. Very big names and awesome musicians, sometimes true legends, are slowly giving up.


I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.


I'll give You right in that a promoting company can do a lot more than Yourself since they got the financial resources. But still they are thinking in the wrong way. How many people visit a record store today in search of a new band/record ??? Personally I dont know a single person, my kids are adopting all new music through the internet or through watching TV-series/movies. So why are the companies still doing the same old-fashioned marketing??? There are surprisingly few ads on the internet for new bands and new music. At the same time we are experiencing higher ticket prizes to concerts, I paid 40€ for seeing Gary Moore in Berlin, and that was CHEAP..... This tells me once again: The musicians today must try to live on their concerts/live performances rather than selling records. An other interesting alternative would be if the record business worked more close with the gaming/entertainment business licensing the songs for games etc.

The only way to stop the filesharing is to make it difficult and hard to do - eg. it would be easier to buy it than put some hours to try to copying it. Another way would be to introduce a new digital format that will be hard to copy and as well have a much higher quality than the MP3's. But this will only work for some years - until its hacked and then we are back from the beginning again..... Compare it to Microsofts genuine validation and You'll get a grasp of what I mean... People are copying Windows, but in the long run its too messy to deal with, so its easier to pay for it.

But still, the most important question is: Do we really want to have record stores and consume music like in the old days? Personally I say no, I would rather pay 16€ to watch my favourite artist online with my credit card, than driving my car to a record store and buy the last album. The crowd has changed their consuming behaviour and so must the record labels/recording industry. Thats why we have a problem with pirating - eg. dont blame the consumers, blame the industry who still want to play by their own old rules!

//Staffay

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM) *
I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.


Yeah, thats true! smile.gif I was on a record with him playing guitar in the 80's, ask him if he remembers Matchtown Studios in Sweden. He was also doin a Yugoslavian version of a Swedish song, cant remember which it was though....


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Emir Hot
post Dec 13 2009, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:04 PM) *
Personally I dont know a single person, my kids are adopting all new music through the internet or through watching TV-series/movies. So why are the companies still doing the same old-fashioned marketing???

They don't distribute in shops only. Every serious label distributes stuff on internet as well. You can find my album on every popular music web store in both mp3 and CD format but very few people pay for it.

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Dec 13 2009, 05:17 PM


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 05:17 PM) *
They don't distribute in shops only. Every serious label distributes stuff on internet as well. You can find my album on every popular music web store in both mp3 and CD format but very few people pay for it.


Yeah, I know, but since people are used to (by now) to get MP3's for free - why should they visit an online store to pay for them??? More interesting would be if they sold the album in a high-end resolution together with some vids of the band and maybe some photos? And then MARKETED it through other channels. People do not visit online record stores either... In my belief thew marketing must be made at Youtube and other well known forums.

//Staffay


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MickeM
post Dec 13 2009, 05:25 PM
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Artists have been poor through out all times, then there was a period where one could package music on f.ex CD's and earn very much; but that period is over.
- Alexander Bard

I guess there's some truth to that quote. Record industry bit it's own tail getting too greedy. Spotify and their likes are great for discovering new music, just great to be able to randomly listen (which radio isn't) and suddenly hear something that pulls the carpet under your feet.
I can't think of buying mp3's, music in the cyber void or on harddrives. So I don't think CD's - or some other format - will go away just yet.
At least I want music to come in a keep case.


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Emir Hot
post Dec 13 2009, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:22 PM) *
Yeah, I know, but since people are used to (by now) to get MP3's for free - why should they visit an online store to pay for them??? More interesting would be if they sold the album in a high-end resolution together with some vids of the band and maybe some photos? And then MARKETED it through other channels. People do not visit online record stores either... In my belief thew marketing must be made at Youtube and other well known forums.

//Staffay

Staffy, all of them (labels) have Youtube, Myspace, Facebook, Twitter etc.. channels smile.gif Plus they are in magazines, webzines and a lot more.

You said "why should they visit an online store to pay for them". Ok then where should people look to buy stuff?


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Dec 13 2009, 05:25 PM) *
So I don't think CD's - or some other format - will go away just yet.
At least I want music to come in a keep case.


No, Im speaking not about tomorrow... it will of course take some time (due to the stubbornness Im talking bout), but in a couple of years maybe.... I would personally prefer to buy an album the real old-fashion way, in vinyl with those great looking covers - but the kids growing up now are'nt thinking the way we do...l. sad.gif

//Staffay


QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 05:38 PM) *
Staffy, all of them (labels) have Youtube, Myspace, Facebook, Twitter etc.. channels smile.gif Plus they are in magazines, webzines and a lot more.

You said "why should they visit an online store to pay for them". Ok then where should people look to buy stuff?


First, I also have a Youtube channel, Myspace channel as well as Facebook, people hardly visit my pages either. What Im talking about here is paid advertising on the normal pages the users sees. There is hardly no advertising at all at Facebook for instance (which I visit daily) directed to me at my own page - even that the ads are for sale and they are incredible simple to advertise on. That the labels have their own channels doesn't mean that they are doin any effort to market their artists.

The answer on the last one is simple: People dont WANNA pay for music, they wanna to download it for free. So what to do? Let them download some teasers for free and then sell them a high quality product when they are liking your music. And now Im not talking bout some low-end MP3's that sounds like crap..... (I bought some music at Itunes and some of the encodings were TERRIBLE....) Thats why Im saying that the business must adopt a new format to get rid of pirating.

//Staffay


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Emir Hot
post Dec 13 2009, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:55 PM) *
So what to do? Let them download some teasers for free and then sell them a high quality product when they are liking your music.

But how to make them buy your music if they like it. I see no way of making them pay for it. They have teasers available everywhere.


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Jakub Luptovec
post Dec 13 2009, 06:18 PM
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Completely agree with Staffay. The music business must finally understand, that telling what is theft and what isnt is just merely a different point of few.

But what can you be sure with is, that when people are put before decision:

"For free (and MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE)

or

for money (and you have to go to shop/wait until you get that thing by postal services/setup your credit card, add stuff to basket, complete order.. its still much more complicated then downloading a torrent for ex.)"

99% people (dont take literary) will choose the easier and cheaper way. Normally, what would happen would be: Business model not working => we have to adapt a new model, be creative and offer them something (movies, tshirts... heck picks would be cool). But the core of capitalism is business, so they used their power, formed organisations, pushed legislative and now its: Business model not working => lets blame them for making copies and for borrowing to their friends! And with time, it went to this extreme - by their own fault, insetad of inventing and thinking about how to solve it, they started prosecuting.

Another thing:
How much of the record sales go REALLY into the artists pocket? especially on those huge labels. How much of the fee WE (as band) have to pay for every cover song we do on our gigs to the copyright organisations is really put into art? I doubt its even far from close to 50:50.

I am not telling its all about the business - its about human nature as well. But first of all, I think that the whole music industry needs all around changes and the illegal downloading is just a tip of an iceberg.

Well about them, buying your music... I agree its tough to sell mp3s in this enviroment (you can get anything you want for free...).
I have an idea tho on how to solve that - imagine some cloud computing music database, with mp3's, videos etc.. availible for streaming, you pay fixed price for access (just like GMC) and artists are being payed according to number of listens. This idea needs more developing, but I believe it could make both three sides happy smile.gif (as I believe there is future in cloud computing)

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Dec 13 2009, 06:20 PM


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jafomatic
post Dec 13 2009, 06:43 PM
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I assume not everyone (or anyone?) can see Hulu outside the US but there's a segment in this documentary where artists specifically talk about ways to embrace the digital availability of their work:

http://www.hulu.com/before-the-music-dies

Specifically, putting your own stuff at low (192kbit) bitrate online and offering added value to the actual album with extras. Behind-the-scenes video from the studio, a t-shirt, artwork, I can't remember all the examples.

This post has been edited by jafomatic: Dec 13 2009, 06:44 PM


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Jakub Luptovec
post Dec 13 2009, 06:55 PM
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Yea, even tho, I dont have USA IP, the hulu project is very interesting!


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 06:10 PM) *
But how to make them buy your music if they like it. I see no way of making them pay for it. They have teasers available everywhere.


Yeah, but thats why they dont get a much better product when buying the album.... or any other stuff. See Jafomatics post...
The key herein lies in that the company should make a product bundle that cannot been beaten by a free MP3 download, eg. the business itself must play by the new rules! Today they are acting like dinasours, wanting to have the old days back when they could gain enormous profits out of nothing instead of trying to adopt the new situation.

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 13 2009, 06:43 PM) *
Specifically, putting your own stuff at low (192kbit) bitrate online and offering added value to the actual album with extras. Behind-the-scenes video from the studio, a t-shirt, artwork, I can't remember all the examples.


Thats exactly what Im talking bout! smile.gif

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Dec 13 2009, 06:18 PM) *
Another thing:
How much of the record sales go REALLY into the artists pocket?


As I said earlier, Michael Jackson rumoured to get 5% at Thriller and that was considering HIGH back then.
EDIT: And now the company's talking bout theft???? biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Staffy: Dec 13 2009, 07:04 PM


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post Dec 13 2009, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Dec 13 2009, 04:19 PM) *
Selling 1000 CDs is great...! I can't even get my own wife to listen to the covers I've recorded, unless she sings it herself biggrin.gif


i believe the own wife is the hardest jury you can have! thats my experience... sad.gif


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Fran
post Dec 13 2009, 07:32 PM
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Talking about good legal alternatives to listen/get new musiv, I'm loving Spotify lately.

I also have a subscription to LastFM, which is another great source to listen/find new music.


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Neurologi
post Dec 13 2009, 07:33 PM
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Glad someone finally had the sense to point out that the debate on intellectual property rights is just another red herring to get the consumer to play by the big boys rules. Of course, this has the legal profession rubbing their hands together with glee. For everyone else, there is nothing to be gained by empty moralising over what people should or should not do. Far better would be to find new rules of engagement as some of the fine folk here at GMC have just pointed out ... smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 13 2009, 08:11 PM
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What must be understood in this debate is that nothing comes for free. I you wanna have success - You have to pay for it. Numerous female artists paid in their own way (which must not be mentioned here), other artists paid by selling their rights and even made their music more "commercial". It has always been and will always be so. Even in the "old days" it was like that, Madonna or Paul McCartney are good examples on that - they would'nt have been anything today without a sense of businessman-ship. To have a talent and write some great music isn't simply enough. You have to work hard even that You have a label behind You, in order to make them do things YOUR way.
In the 70's and 80's the bands usually had their own labels in order to get thíngs to happen - the same applies today since the company's just see's red numbers or green numbers and they dont give a damn about the music as long as it sells. Therefore, a musician must be very business-aware and smart to get them doin the right things for You. Just be signed to a major label doesn't mean that You will be recognized and have a success.....

//Staffay


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Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2
Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd October 2017 - 08:11 PM