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> Ap,sweep Or Economy - Confusing?
Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 06:50 AM
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After Jose Mena's excellent spoken lesson bout AP-picking, I guess its time to pick up the never ending discussion about picking techniques again. Im getting really confused here since I saw Frank Gambale in an interwiev claiming that he tries to sweep-pick in every single little situation - which in turn would be the same as economy-picking in my belief. So the best would obviously be to master all of the techniques, but the problem herein lies in that when You actually improvises You can't think about whether to sweep/economy or AP. So that leads to the big question (again): Which technique to use????

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Emir Hot
post Dec 14 2009, 07:28 AM
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Whichever you find the most comfortabe and apropriate in that very moment of improvisation smile.gif That's what I do at least even though I am a big fan of AP. Some licks and runs just sound better and easier to play with economy so learning both can't do you bad. Frank is a jazz guy and they rarely alternate pick but trust me he knows how to use both smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 14 2009, 07:28 AM) *
Whichever you find the most comfortabe and apropriate in that very moment of improvisation smile.gif That's what I do at least even though I am a big fan of AP. Some licks and runs just sound better and easier to play with economy so learning both can't do you bad. Frank is a jazz guy and they rarely alternate pick but trust me he knows how to use both smile.gif


Yeah, of course, Frank is a very skilled guy. Hmmm, I guess I would go for some AP, since I've ever thought bout technique really until now. I realized that I actually use sweep picking when it comes to arpeggios without thinking of it..... But also I have a lot of "bad habits" by playing things legato that have sounded a lot better if they were picked..... What really confuses me here is when You're supposed to switch string, its most logical to me like Frank says, that if the string is higher and Your pick is already moving downwards, why should You then go for an upstroke? Then the wrist has to "jump" like Jose says in his lesson (which is outstanding imo.), which is obviously an unnecessary movement but in turn I can see the advantages in this if You mastering it properly since then You are not bound to the right hand at all when improvising.... (its really improvising im talking bout here, since if You play a written part its easy to arrange it so it sounds good....)

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Emir Hot
post Dec 14 2009, 08:55 AM
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I wouldn't say unnecessary movement. If you pick string like its own stroke (whether upstroke or downstroke), you get much stronger attack and more agressive sound. If you sweep that note it sounds very soft. The effect can only be demonstrated if you play some fast run with both techniques and you would hear the huge difference.


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Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 14 2009, 08:55 AM) *
I wouldn't say unnecessary movement. If you pick string like its own stroke (whether upstroke or downstroke), you get much stronger attack and more agressive sound. If you sweep that note it sounds very soft. The effect can only be demonstrated if you play some fast run with both techniques and you would hear the huge difference.


Hmmm, thats true! I hadn't thought of that. Thanx Emir. So basically its really bout if You wanna be a "hard" guy or a "soft" guy... tongue.gif
Nah, I can clearly see now why the modern jazz players use sweeping/legato/economy since they wanna sound smoother, in the old days all jazz players did the AP-picking and that is a totally different sound. So I guess I have to go for both, since I want to be able to do some shredding-like stuff as well. (it will at least scare my children... biggrin.gif )

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Emir Hot
post Dec 14 2009, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 14 2009, 08:11 AM) *
Hmmm, thats true! I hadn't thought of that. Thanx Emir. So basically its really bout if You wanna be a "hard" guy or a "soft" guy... tongue.gif
Nah, I can clearly see now why the modern jazz players use sweeping/legato/economy since they wanna sound smoother, in the old days all jazz players did the AP-picking and that is a totally different sound. So I guess I have to go for both, since I want to be able to do some shredding-like stuff as well. (it will at least scare my children... biggrin.gif )

//Staffay

Shredding is cool man smile.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 14 2009, 09:46 AM) *
Shredding is cool man smile.gif


Yeah, if its played tight and accurate.... guess I have to take some of Your lessons.... biggrin.gif

//Staffay


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Keep_Rocking
post Dec 14 2009, 11:48 AM
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Thank you for the explanation guys!
I'm also a great AP-fan. wink.gif
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kaznie_NL
post Dec 14 2009, 02:52 PM
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For me it's AP all the way, but maybe it's just wat you like to do? And I gues Economy Picking can sometimes be harder to use without getting dirty. If you make the sweep motion to agressive you'll get ringing strings I gues.

AP tongue.gif


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Staffy
post Dec 14 2009, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Dec 14 2009, 02:52 PM) *
For me it's AP all the way, but maybe it's just wat you like to do? And I gues Economy Picking can sometimes be harder to use without getting dirty. If you make the sweep motion to agressive you'll get ringing strings I gues.

AP tongue.gif


Hmmm, Kaz, have You heard Frank Gambale???? He was the one who's supposed to invent sweep picking in the late 70's long before the heavy metal guys adopted it. He even wrote a book on the topic, guess Jason Becker must have read it... tongue.gif Anyhow, he's technique is simply stunning! smile.gif

//Staffay


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Jose Mena
post Dec 14 2009, 03:45 PM
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Emir explained it clearly, 2 different sounds, the economy pick sounds smoother, I have seen Frank Gambale's instructional videos, I had the Monster Licks and speed picking video, and I thought his approach was brilliant, but of course will never give you the Paul Gilbert sound.

The movement I do in my lesson as I say is not economy at all, a lot of energy is used in moving the wrist to jump over the strings, when I saw Frank Gambale's video I thought I was going to switch to this technique and forget AP, however I could never get the sound I was after so decided to use economy only when necessary

I recorded myself playing this exercise different ways


--13-12-10-----------
-----------13-12-10--
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1. First start with upstroke and switch strings with economy
2. Start with upstroke and alternate pick
3. Start with downstroke and alternate pick

For this one in particular the hardest is 3, but also the most aggressive because as you are done with the first string your hand just did a downstroke and now it should come back with an upstroke on the second string, I need to jump over the first string and move my hand all the way to the second string, this is a lot of movement that slows me down however sounds agressive and precise once you master it.


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Daniel Realpe
post Dec 14 2009, 04:04 PM
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For me, when I'm improvising, before I'm going to play a scale or a phrase, there's a split second when I go: "ok, this is going to be AP" or "let's do this one with sweeping",

it happens in a very small time frame, so I guess it's important to master them all, but as you said Frank Gambale devoted to one technique that enables him to not think at all



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 15 2009, 02:05 AM
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I believe Mr. Gambale has great AP technique as well, it just happens he's famous about his extensive use of EP.

Both techniques can be useful, both have different sound to them. Some things are easier to play with one, some heavier and vice versa. Depends on the situation, but both should be rehearsed to a degree, depending on the needs.


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