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Hammerhead
post Jan 24 2010, 06:44 PM
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Sorry for the wait... huh.gif I got stuck with the recording/rendering issues and had to run to coach my sons football football game. It was great! This team they played had beat them pretty bad just three weeks ago and started name calling and really taunting(cussing too ohmy.gif huh.gif ) towards my son's team. Remember these guys are only 8 years old mad.gif Anyway we beat 'em... which felt really great since the other team came on the field all full of attitude and put downs dry.gif and then at half time they got real quiet biggrin.gif as they were held to no score and were down by two touchdowns!!!! Needless to say we told them what a great game it was, and how they had played well! cool.gif

Ok ..back here to business. There is so much work to do and only one week between takes... so I've made some changes, as noted above. I know there is still lots to do but I know I'm moving in the right direction. I have to share that by counting out the beats, I recognized one huge problem I was facing. At one point I want to play licks that just couldn't keep time ... well i was trying to play triplets blink.gif Now I will have to work on practicing with the metronome. So here it is. I'm having real issues recording so there is some hiss even with a noise gate... and over all recording levels seem off... unsure.gif

This post has been edited by Hammerhead: Jan 24 2010, 06:50 PM
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Classic_Rock_take_7WBT.mp3 ( 655.63K ) Number of downloads: 150
Attached File  Classic_Rock_take_7NBT.mp3 ( 655.63K ) Number of downloads: 116
 


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Ruzz
post Jan 24 2010, 08:55 PM
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Hello Ivan!

This was a great backing and I think I have made an okay solo for it smile.gif
Our talk on the videochat last night gave me some ideas on what to play..
I am looking forward to hearing what you think of it..
I might go for another take later this week if I have the time..

Track with backing
Track without backing


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ruben_mcn
post Jan 25 2010, 12:04 AM
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Hi there Ivan here is my take tongue.gif hope u enjoy it ( can u give me some critics about my soloing ?? )

[attachment=20008:IVan_2_backing.mp3]

[attachment=20009:IVan_2_no_backing.mp3]


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Berglmir
post Jan 25 2010, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (Hammerhead @ Jan 23 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Berglmir,
I've downloaded Foobar... but can't open the file. I've dug around the forums and FAQ's but no answers...? Is there a trick to opening this file? O.K. I think what is needed is the torrent file opener found here...http://www.bittorrent.com/

wink.gif
I don't know how to Render from Foobar... I've got the FLAC file open and palying but how do I render from there?


I obviously did not make myself clear - sorry!
I don NOT render from Foobar2000!
I render from REAPER -> into FLAC. It means I don´t use wav or mp3 as output format of my take but Flac instead.
When I open foobar2000 and open my Reaper take I can right cklick on it and CONVERT it into mp3.

That´s how it works for me!
Sorry for any misunderstanding & hope it works out now!

Cheers
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 25 2010, 01:53 AM
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Hammerhead:

No problem mate, I'm glad things went well on the game biggrin.gif This new take already sounds much better, you are mostly in time and playing some very interesting phrases. I like how you used repetition in the solo, and the first part had a nice development in the second part with those melodies. In general, the take was good with a good firm effective ending. The thing that bothered me a lot is the sound of you take. It has so much noise and it was very low quality, very squashed. I'm not exactly sure what may be wrong there, but if you could tell me the gear you used to create this sound we can discuss about it.



Ruzz

Rhythm: Excellent rhythmical structure, with notes that are clearly developing as the solo progresses towards the end. All the notes were placed nicely within the bar, and had proper weight. The thing that I don't like is the fact that you used and accented too many notes here and there. For example you picked a lot of times one note several times while fretting it. It would be cool to just let it ring and create a little longer note duration at that point to break away from the usual rhythmical structure.
Phrasing: Great main theme in the beginning that is developing quite nicely. Very melodic and nicely made solo. What bothered me a bit is the use of the outside notes in some places. I think it doesn't sound very logical to use them. Also, the very ending has two same bended notes one after another, so a more effective leading into that bended note is needed to make it sound more fluid.
Technique: Very nicely played take with very good attention to tone control and muting. Very nice and clean. The only part you had some problems with is the 16th note part in the end which could come out more cleaner in my opinion.
Sound: Your sounds was very nice and smooth in this take, however I think you used too big reverb time, and it colored the tone quite a bit. Lowering down the reverb time (and level) will reduce the effect of reverb coloration of guitar tone.

ruben_mcn

Rhythm: Rhythmically the take was solid, with good attention to timing. Your timing was nice and accentuated most of the drum groove. The problem with your soloing here is the fact that you used too many 8th notes, and very similar patterns throughout the solo. This created a repetitive feeling for me as a listener, and I believe that the solo should have at least one "breakout" part where you play some triplets. I think 8th triplets would fit in nicely here, and it doesn't even have to be some very hard sequence, any will do the job, even 2-3 note one. The ending of the solo came out ineffective because you didn't finish when the backing ended, but instead continued to play the solo, trying to pull of a bluesy kind of a finishing that was a bit off with timing, and again using similar rhythmic pattern as before. Definitely have to create more contrast between different rhythmical parts within the solo, by altering note duration use.
Phrasing: Very similar observation comes for the melodic aspect of your playing. The phrases all sounded look-alike. Although there were some nice licks involved, I believe that you could pay more attention on the strong notes of the chords in the backing and accent them properly as the chord progression is moving. This would mean a lot to your playing because the solo would have more connection with the backing. If you take away the backing, you can hardly understand why you play the notes you play and what is the progression, so this is why it is important to accent the chord notes and understand how to connect with the music you play on top of. Learning chords and arpeggios will help a lot there.
Technique: Nicely played take. Although there isn't anything wrong specifically with it, by listening to your solo guitar track, I noticed that everything is played a bit sloppy/slow. Those notes and pickings has to be more tighter and with more precise execution, so in general I recommend more time with metronome on slow tempos, and building up gradually the speed.
Sound: The sound had way too much distortion, lots of buzzing and noise. If you cut down the distortion to at least half, on the EQ cut everything bellow 200Hz with a high pass filter, and cut above 5000Hz with low pass filter, and accent the mids just a bit, you will get much more defined tone.


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JVM
post Jan 25 2010, 06:02 AM
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Hi Ivan, I am recently trying to incorporate some faster playing to my improvisation but it has always been hit or miss with me. Let me know what you think of this first take.

Attached File  classicrock1.mp3 ( 1.19MB ) Number of downloads: 126

Attached File  classicrock1NOBT.mp3 ( 670.54K ) Number of downloads: 120


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Hammerhead
post Jan 25 2010, 06:39 AM
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Ivan,
Thank you for offering to help me with my sound! I almost did not submit a take because the sound is so terrible huh.gif mad.gif But I thought that I should at least turn in something, even if I'm very unhappy with it, rather than nothing at all.

I record using Reaper. I plug straight from my guitar (YJM Stratocaster, neck pickup) into my Tonelab LE. From there into my sound card (Audio Kontrol 1). From there into my DAW. I can't seem to pull together a sound that is any good. I run out to my marshall 4x12 cab. At the moment I'm not using an amp head to record.

I have been so upset with this terrible sound that for this last take that I simply used a clean sound from the Tone lab (no effects), and relied on Guitar Rig (LE?) for any distortion and reverb, and a noise gate. It seems to have made it worse dry.gif

It seems that everything I record comes off as thin and buzzing mad.gif I've even used the guitar rig EQ.. it seems to help some, but it all just sounds BAD.

What do you think?

I've just taken the strings off of my guitar and think I might install a 5 way switch (it came with a three way switch) tomorrow if I can find the time. I don't think this will help me really but I'm very frustrated dry.gif and it couldn't hurt.





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Berglmir
post Jan 25 2010, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jan 23 2010, 04:50 PM) *
Berglmir

Rhythm: Nicely played with a good sense for timing. The thing that bothered me the most here is the fact that you used too many 8th notes. During the whole take there are 8th notes, and although some of them are played in the shuffled manner, it still doesn't make up for the inevitable repetitive effect. The last faster sequence was note properly controlled and the notes are not defined well rhythmically. When practicing, try to practice everything using all kinds of different note durations, this will help to break out of the 8th notes a bit.
Phrasing: There are some cool phrases in this take, and they are mostly within the pentatonic scale. This itself is very nice, and structurally it all fits in very nicely, but the problem here is the connection of the solo guitar with rhythm guitar. As you know, rhythm guitar plays certain chords that contain certain notes, and for solo guitar it would be best to function within those changes in a proper manner. This is mainly done by gravitating towards those strong notes, and forming a melody that is revolving around those important chordal notes. You don't have to form the whole melody like this, but for starters it would be good to focus on the landing notes, and make the a bit more connected to the chords beneath.
Technique: Nicely played take with lots of artificial harmonics that complement the take in a very cool manner. Vibratos could be better controlled and better used, I think they were a bit too fast and nervous here. The speedpicking part in the end needs a lot more refinement, since the half of the notes came out undefined. It would be much better to use simple 8th triad run and snug the notes carefully within the bar so they lead to the root in a more defined way. Better muting would help as well since you had huge amounts of gain (and noise) present.
Sound: Sound is OK in this, and I like the use of wah, not too often I hear one on collads. However, I think you used too much distortion and the sound was fizzy with evident lack of dynamics.


As always thanks for your effort in this collab and your feedback on my take.
A few question I have to ask to fully get your meaning (and thus be able to improve myself):
-) Regarding "the connection of the solo guitar with rhythm guitar" - are you saying that the solo sounds "wrong"? Can you explain a bit more what exactly you mean with "connection". I know there are some lessons about this here at GMC (will have to check them out),

-) Vibrato = my Waterloo! dry.gif I know it´s too fast and nervous - that´s mainly because when I´m playing I have the feeling I don´t have time to do wide and slower vibrato.....I´m working on it (actually I´m trying to cover some David Gilmoure & G. Moore solos rolleyes.gif )

-) About the fast run at the end: I´m afraid you lost me there! I think it sounds quite cool. Could you please explain what you mean by "un/defined"? Would be a great help.

-) I also thought it would be cool to use a Wah on this take - as I don´t use real amps and pedals/boxes atm it´s all software simulated - maybe the sound got a bit "washed out" by using the wah?

If you have time to make a short comment I will try to put all your tips into a second take!
Cheers mate - highly appreciated!!!!

This post has been edited by Berglmir: Jan 25 2010, 03:30 PM
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Hammerhead
post Jan 25 2010, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Berglmir @ Jan 24 2010, 01:38 PM) *
I obviously did not make myself clear - sorry!
I don NOT render from Foobar2000!
I render from REAPER -> into FLAC. It means I don´t use wav or mp3 as output format of my take but Flac instead.
When I open foobar2000 and open my Reaper take I can right cklick on it and CONVERT it into mp3.

That´s how it works for me!
Sorry for any misunderstanding & hope it works out now!

Cheers


Thanks Berglmir wink.gif I will try the right click method. I was able to do everything up to the render into mp3 from the open FLAC. I'll try this and let you know if I'm still stuck. Thanks again for this tip! I am trying desperately to fix my BROKEN tone mad.gif this is part of the problem... not not all of it for sure! cool.gif


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jafomatic
post Jan 27 2010, 10:32 PM
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Someone recorded takes a couple weeks ago and figured he would decide to think about them and upload them the next day. Someone forgot to do that. That someone is me sad.gif

Attached File  IMCR_T5_full.mp.mp3 ( 1.28MB ) Number of downloads: 121

Attached File  IMCR_T5_solo.mp3 ( 1.28MB ) Number of downloads: 107




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Ruzz
post Jan 29 2010, 04:37 PM
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Hey Ivan

I changed my take a bit.. Think it is somewhat better now..
Not as many "outside" notes..

With backing
Without backing


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Sensible Jones
post Jan 29 2010, 08:56 PM
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Ivan, are you OK if I post mine tomorrow? (Sat)
smile.gif

Here it is, sorry if it's held you up Ivan! smile.gif
[attachment=20043:Ivan_Cla...Rock_wbt.mp3]
[attachment=20044:Ivan_Cla...Rock_nbt.mp3]

This post has been edited by Sensible Jones: Jan 30 2010, 11:15 PM


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 1 2010, 03:12 AM
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JVM

Rhythm: Very cool rhythmic patterns in the first part and good development from slower to fast as the solo progresses towards the end. One thing that I must comment on is unprecise timing in the second part. It is good to try to play faster, but it would be even more effective to play all the phrases precisely within the bar. This adds that feel of well and effective played solo. With these fast phrases I recommend just playing these fast sequences with the metronome very slowly so you get the feel where the notes are in the bar. Then you can connect them together and form a great solo.
Phrasing: Great start with call & response phrases. Later on in the second part, the phrasing becomes non-structured on moments with no clear definition of notes played, and connection with the backing. The ending is good, and I can suggest finishing on octave higher, as most of the notes used in the second part were higher than the root played in the end.
Technique: Well played take. The notes in the second part could be a bit more defined, and you need to work on your muting technique as well to make it as tight as you can. In general, it is very good, and with some practice and understanding of timing of these notes and some additional muting, it would be excellent.
Sound: The overdrive ammount was good, but the tone color isn't. Although it doesn't buzz, it lacks top end very much, and it is muddy, not cutting well through the mix. I suggest cuting the bass bellow 100Hz with HP filter, and accenting the hi-mid-high region a bit. Lowering down the volume should be done too, because the take was clipping.

Jafo:

Rhythm: Very good and interesting view on the rhythm in this take. I like the staccato style in the first part, and the absence of it in the second part, nice idea. Everything was very good, but I must say your take would be even better if you kept the timing a bit more precise throughout. So in general, it's all well, but the timing needs some refinement. i would also like to hear some longer notes in this solo as well, to break the structure a bit.
Phrasing: Very nice use of pentatonic scale, and good rocking licks throughout the solo. Everything is in place, nicely connected with the backing, and tightly structured. Since you went on octave higher in the second part it sounded cool, but in the end I still got a small impression that some licks were repeated slightly more than needed. In addition to that, I didn't like the second phrase in the take was cuttoff sharply towards the end. I think in general the take was good, but it lacks fluidness here and there, probably because it was made from several parts which broke the connection a bit.
Technique: Nicely played, with good sense for muting. However, some phrases sounded a bit too much staccato-ish. Fluid playing is very important and in the pick must make fluid and minimal movements, with great attention on cutting down those micropauses between the notes while practicing.
Sound: The tone is good and punchy I like it. The crunchy tone has some buzz but it's small issue. The auto-pan effect was interesting, but slightly exaggerated. It made the guitar position a bit undefined in the mix for me from a listeners perspective.

Sensible Jones:

Rhythm: Very solid and straightforward playing. I like the whole take and timing is nice and balanced, but I think you could implement more diversity in terms of note durations that are being used. longer note here and there, and possibly some short but effective burst in the middle could make wonders and break out of the 8th routines found here. Even implementing longer triplets liek quarter or 8th ones would sound cool and refreshing.
Phrasing: Good use of pentatonic scale, and fluid movements throughout the take. The very last note was not that good choice IMO, and could be played more accurately. I general, I think it was played good, with good sense for note landings and structuring. My advice would be to try to use more diatonic pattern notes, to create richer melodic content, and to invest some time in practicing longer diagonal diatonic and pentatonic movements and arpeggios, it will help you greatly to increase the quality.
Technique: Well played, and nicely muted. During the take you had this lazy feel which I think wasn't really needed, but it turned out nicely, didn't bothered me in the end. I just think the feel could be more on or even forward instead of behind the beat. Bends were good, except the last one, but they were a bit lazy too, so I recommend making them more sharper and aggressive for that rock vibe.
Sound: The tone was cutting well through the mix, and it was in front of the backing nicely. I think the overdrive was the biggest issue here, it was fizzy and buzzy, and probably overdone. I think lowering the gain knob, and EQing a bit (removing low end completely) would sound very nicely.


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jafomatic
post Feb 2 2010, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jan 31 2010, 08:12 PM) *
Jafo:

Rhythm: Very good and interesting view on the rhythm in this take. I like the staccato style in the first part, and the absence of it in the second part, nice idea. Everything was very good, but I must say your take would be even better if you kept the timing a bit more precise throughout. So in general, it's all well, but the timing needs some refinement. i would also like to hear some longer notes in this solo as well, to break the structure a bit.
Phrasing: Very nice use of pentatonic scale, and good rocking licks throughout the solo. Everything is in place, nicely connected with the backing, and tightly structured. Since you went on octave higher in the second part it sounded cool, but in the end I still got a small impression that some licks were repeated slightly more than needed. In addition to that, I didn't like the second phrase in the take was cuttoff sharply towards the end. I think in general the take was good, but it lacks fluidness here and there, probably because it was made from several parts which broke the connection a bit.
Technique: Nicely played, with good sense for muting. However, some phrases sounded a bit too much staccato-ish. Fluid playing is very important and in the pick must make fluid and minimal movements, with great attention on cutting down those micropauses between the notes while practicing.
Sound: The tone is good and punchy I like it. The crunchy tone has some buzz but it's small issue. The auto-pan effect was interesting, but slightly exaggerated. It made the guitar position a bit undefined in the mix for me from a listeners perspective.


Timing just recently became an issue in this and in Emir's similar (for me) collaboration which is very interesting. I'm experiencing some hesitation while playing because I am forcing myself to remember to stick (mostly) to pentatonics for what I'm feeling is the way to handle the style requested. That choice is not anyone's fault but my own AND it's highlighted an interesting weakness if that's really what's happening.

Regarding repeated licks, it's one BIG lick that has a small change in the middle but is otherwise totally the same in both uses. I tried to vary that one for its second appearance (along with the pickup switch) but I agree it still sounds like excess repetition. The solo is playable in one take but I never got both halves "good enough" in the same take, so I cut two takes together. It sounds a lot more fluid where I get it all in one take --I may have even rendered it that way a couple times-- but I didn't like the those as much.

I'll see what I can do about the staccato issue. I need to find a balance somewhere that I'm not allowing too much legato either, which is an old habit I seem to have broken.

For sound, I don't use an autopan but(!) I do always have some kind of stereo effect in use: stereo delay or stereo chorus or stereo flange, and any one of those may have been set for too-high a mix level and thus too distinct.

As always, thanks for taking the time to make all these notes for us man, I really appreciate the feedback.


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Sensible Jones
post Feb 2 2010, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Feb 1 2010, 02:12 AM) *
Sensible Jones:

Rhythm: Very solid and straightforward playing. I like the whole take and timing is nice and balanced, but I think you could implement more diversity in terms of note durations that are being used. longer note here and there, and possibly some short but effective burst in the middle could make wonders and break out of the 8th routines found here. Even implementing longer triplets liek quarter or 8th ones would sound cool and refreshing.
Phrasing: Good use of pentatonic scale, and fluid movements throughout the take. The very last note was not that good choice IMO, and could be played more accurately. I general, I think it was played good, with good sense for note landings and structuring. My advice would be to try to use more diatonic pattern notes, to create richer melodic content, and to invest some time in practicing longer diagonal diatonic and pentatonic movements and arpeggios, it will help you greatly to increase the quality.
Technique: Well played, and nicely muted. During the take you had this lazy feel which I think wasn't really needed, but it turned out nicely, didn't bothered me in the end. I just think the feel could be more on or even forward instead of behind the beat. Bends were good, except the last one, but they were a bit lazy too, so I recommend making them more sharper and aggressive for that rock vibe.
Sound: The tone was cutting well through the mix, and it was in front of the backing nicely. I think the overdrive was the biggest issue here, it was fizzy and buzzy, and probably overdone. I think lowering the gain knob, and EQing a bit (removing low end completely) would sound very nicely.

Thanks Ivan, great advice as always! I'm starting to work on getting some more speed together so that I can get some variation like you say, as well as working on some more 'diagonal' patterns! biggrin.gif
As for the EQ-ing, what would you recommend as being the best way to do it?
If I'm using Amplitube 1 would you just roll the Bass down a bit or add the Parametric EQ and use that or even a Graphic Equaliser VST? I'm slowly getting the hang of how to use it all! biggrin.gif
Thanks again for the time you put into this!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 6 2010, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Berglmir @ Jan 25 2010, 10:08 AM) *
As always thanks for your effort in this collab and your feedback on my take.
A few question I have to ask to fully get your meaning (and thus be able to improve myself):
-) Regarding "the connection of the solo guitar with rhythm guitar" - are you saying that the solo sounds "wrong"? Can you explain a bit more what exactly you mean with "connection". I know there are some lessons about this here at GMC (will have to check them out),

-) Vibrato = my Waterloo! dry.gif I know it´s too fast and nervous - that´s mainly because when I´m playing I have the feeling I don´t have time to do wide and slower vibrato.....I´m working on it (actually I´m trying to cover some David Gilmoure & G. Moore solos rolleyes.gif )

-) About the fast run at the end: I´m afraid you lost me there! I think it sounds quite cool. Could you please explain what you mean by "un/defined"? Would be a great help.

-) I also thought it would be cool to use a Wah on this take - as I don´t use real amps and pedals/boxes atm it´s all software simulated - maybe the sound got a bit "washed out" by using the wah?

If you have time to make a short comment I will try to put all your tips into a second take!
Cheers mate - highly appreciated!!!!

1) connecting the instruments to work together is very important in music, and the relationships that notes create are what is the essence of harmony. If one instrument plays one note, and other instrument other note, these two notes form a bond together. There are many different kinds of "bonds", these would be known as intervals. For you to make a good connection to the backing, you have to examine the actual chords that are being played. All chords contain certain notes, and those notes would be the strong notes, or the notes that are important to you as a musician who plays on top of them. How you use these strong notes in your playing, and what other notes beside them you will use is of course a very personal matter, but it is important that your playing works side by side with the chords. Connecting using strong notes is what counts in this case.

2) regarding vibrato, take a metronome and practice it slowly, practice makes perfect as anything else.

3) The last fast-picked part came out undefined because it was played a bit sloppy and the timing wasn't quite right. I liked the ending, but think it can be even more effective.

4) Possibly, but I'm quite certain there was too much distortion so that was "washing out" the tone IMHO.


QUOTE (Ruzz @ Jan 29 2010, 04:37 PM) *
Hey Ivan

I changed my take a bit.. Think it is somewhat better now..
Not as many "outside" notes..

With backing
Without backing

This is great improvement I like it very much! smile.gif Great intro theme and after that in the second part you focused on the notes that are in the key, so you can really see how the solo came out very effective. The only little thing that could be better is the faster sequence towards the end, it shold had very tight timing and the solo will sound professional. Great job.

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 2 2010, 05:18 PM) *
Timing just recently became an issue in this and in Emir's similar (for me) collaboration which is very interesting. I'm experiencing some hesitation while playing because I am forcing myself to remember to stick (mostly) to pentatonics for what I'm feeling is the way to handle the style requested. That choice is not anyone's fault but my own AND it's highlighted an interesting weakness if that's really what's happening.

Regarding repeated licks, it's one BIG lick that has a small change in the middle but is otherwise totally the same in both uses. I tried to vary that one for its second appearance (along with the pickup switch) but I agree it still sounds like excess repetition. The solo is playable in one take but I never got both halves "good enough" in the same take, so I cut two takes together. It sounds a lot more fluid where I get it all in one take --I may have even rendered it that way a couple times-- but I didn't like the those as much.

I'll see what I can do about the staccato issue. I need to find a balance somewhere that I'm not allowing too much legato either, which is an old habit I seem to have broken.

For sound, I don't use an autopan but(!) I do always have some kind of stereo effect in use: stereo delay or stereo chorus or stereo flange, and any one of those may have been set for too-high a mix level and thus too distinct.

As always, thanks for taking the time to make all these notes for us man, I really appreciate the feedback.


Thanks a lot for this feedback my friend, I agree with everything you wrote. It seems that you very well understand where the problems and advantages may be. I'll be seeing you on some next collab I hope, possibly some more effects experimenting! smile.gif





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Berglmir
post Feb 7 2010, 12:09 AM
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Thanks for time & effort to explain your feedback in more detail - I will take care of these things in future collabs!
THANKS muchly!!
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 7 2010, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (Berglmir @ Feb 7 2010, 12:09 AM) *
Thanks for time & effort to explain your feedback in more detail - I will take care of these things in future collabs!
THANKS muchly!!


You're welcome mate, I'm glad to help in any way. Thanks smile.gif


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