Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Superimposing With Minor Pentatonics, Very important approach!
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 22 2010, 06:15 PM
Post #1


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



Hi guys,
Today I have decided to teach you about Superimposing approach in playing/improvising/composing. There are various approaches how this could be applied but we will try to cover all of them in this thread. Make sure you print out everything and practice every day.


Major scale harmony

To read full post on major scale harmony and cadences, you should check this link HERE



Once you read that article you should know by now that in any major scale we have Minor chords on scale degrees II, III and VI, major chords on scale degrees I, IV and V and diminished chord on scale degree VII. These rules apply to 3 part harmony or triads. In 4 part harmony (4 notes within a single chord) rules are a bit different. Major 7th chords are on scale degrees I and IV, Minor 7th chords are on scale degrees II, III and VI, Dominant 7th chord is on V scale degree and Minor 7b5 is on VII scale degree. These two very important rules apply to any major scale harmony, from any root!

Ok, now that we have covered this basic foundation, lets talk about what Superimposing is.

Superimposing in a most basic way of explaining is playing something rather then obvious over something. To give you an example, Superimposing would be playing E min pentatonic over A min chord or A min7. Obvious thing to do there is to play A min pentatonic over A min type harmony, but what we do with Superimposing is find many other ways and possibilities to enrich our harmony/melody/improvising/composing/accompaniment etc.

Lets talk about Minor pentatonic now and where it appears in major scale, we will take C major scale as example.

Pentatonic scale by itself means 5 note scale. We have most common pentatonic scales like Major and Minor pentatonic scale that are most frequently applied in all styles of music. We will discuss minor pentatonic in this thread since I prefer to solo with minor type sounds smile.gif

Minor pentatonic scale interval formula : Root, Minor 3rd, Perfect 4th, Perfect 5th, Minor 7th , (Octave).
Minor pentatonic scale numbering formula : 1 , b3, 4, 5, b7, (1 or 8).

Ok, now what we will do is try to find where Minor pentatonic occurs in major scale.

C major scale harmony

I = C maj 4 part C maj7
II = D min 4 part D min7
III = E min 4 part E min7
IV = F maj 4 part F maj7
V = G maj 4 part G7
VI = A min 4 part A min7
VII = B dim 4 part B min7b5

Here is a very cool trick to find Minor pentatonic in major scale faster!
Since minor pentatonic starts with interval of minor 3rd, we automatically don't consider major type chords in major scale harmony. Why? Simply because major chords (3 part and 4 part harmony - doesn't matter) start with interval of MAJOR 3rd. Minor pentatonic starts with MINOR 3rd so we automatically look for Minor and type chords in the major scale to figure out pentatonic scales in it.


In C major scale, minor chords appear on scale degrees II, III and VI. Those chords are D min, E min and A min. We will try by applying minor pentatonic formula from those roots (D, E and A) to figure out if there is minor pentatonic from each one of them.

D minor pentatonic = D (root), F (minor3rd) , G (perfect 4th), A (perfect 5th), C (minor 7th), D (root or octave) = PERFECT! All the notes from D minor pentatonic belong to C major scale ( C D E F G A B C). This means that in any major scale we have both minor chord and minor pentatonic happening on II scale degree.
Lets now look for E and A as roots.

E minor pentatonic = E (root), G (minor3rd) , A (perfect 4th), B (perfect 5th), D (minor 7th), E (root or octave) = PERFECT! All the notes from E minor pentatonic belong to C major scale ( C D E F G A B C). This means that in any major scale we have both minor chord and minor pentatonic happening on III scale degree.

A minor pentatonic = A (root), C (minor3rd) , D (perfect 4th), E (perfect 5th), G (minor 7th), A (root or octave) = PERFECT! All the notes from A minor pentatonic belong to C major scale ( C D E F G A B C). This means that in any major scale we have both minor chord and minor pentatonic happening on VI scale degree.

Conclusion : In any major scale, we have Minor pentatonic scale on scale degree II, III and VI just like we have minor chords on those same scale degrees!


Now lets talk about Superimposing with minor pentatonic!

Lets say I have A minor chord. There are 3 ways how I can think of A minor now! It could be that A minor is II, or A minor is III or even A minor is VI ! Here is the layout of A min being II, III and VI :

A min as II = G major scale (go down a whole step from A min or major 2nd) = A Dorian mode
A min as III = F major scale (go down two whole steps from A min or major 3rd) = A Phrygian mode
A min as VI = C major scale (go up a whole step and a half step from A min or minor 3rd) = A Aeolian.

As you see A minor chord can come from 3 different major scale harmonies ! It can come from G major, F major and C major. Each one of these scales has minor chords and minor pentatonic on scale degrees II, III and VI. Here is the layout of those major scales :

G major = G A B C D E F# G
II = A
III = B
VI = E

F major = F G A Bb C D E F
II = G
III = A
VI = D

C major = C D E F G A B C
II = D
III = E
VI = A



Now comes the best part !

To get A minor sound that sounds like Dorian mode, we would use minor pentatonic scales from A, B and E note. Why? Because A minor as II comes from G major scale, and G major scale has A B and E notes on scale degrees II, III and VI! Obvious choice to play over A minor chord is A minor pentatonic but Superimposing starts to happen when we use B and E minor pentatonic!
To get A minor sound that sounds like Phrygian mode, we would use minor pentatonic scales from G, A and D note. Why? Because A minor as III comes from F major scale, and F major scale has G A and D notes on scale degrees II, III and VI! Obvious choice to play over A minor chord is A minor pentatonic but Superimposing starts to happen when we use G and D minor pentatonic!
To get A minor sound that sounds like Aeolian mode, we would use minor pentatonic scales from D, E and A note. Why? Because A minor as VI comes from C major scale, and C major scale has D, E and A notes on scale degrees II, III and VI! Obvious choice to play over A minor chord is A minor pentatonic but Superimposing starts to happen when we use D and E minor pentatonic!



You just learned in this written lesson a lot about major scale harmony, minor pentatonic scale and its implication. Superimposing should be now within your reach. Start applying these things in your soloing and you will see your melodic vocabulary boosting tremendously!

Final note for you guys!
We can use Minor pentatonic to Superimpose over MAJOR chord as well. All you need to do is find original major scale where major chord comes from and from then on work out your II, III and VI in that major scale and you are all set !
For example :

C major chord could be I, IV or V. If C major is I , we are in key of C major where we would use D, E and A minor pentatonic (II, III and VI in key of C). If C major is IV, we are in key of G, and we would use A, B and E minor pentatonic (II,III and VI in key of G). And finally, if C major is V, we are in F major where we would use G, A and D minor pentatonic (II, III, VI in key of F).

Hope this lesson was very useful for all of you guys. Start applying this in your playing and I look forward to your future results with this material.

Pedja


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Jan 22 2010, 06:35 PM
Post #2


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.346
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



Very well written lesson, Pedja. Made for a great read!


Oh, and also... what about super-imposing over altered or dominant chords?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 22 2010, 06:37 PM
Post #3


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jan 22 2010, 06:35 PM) *
Very well written lesson, Pedja. Made for a great read!


Oh, and also... what about super-imposing over altered or dominant chords?


Thank you Ben !

This was Superimposing over Major scale/Natural minor scale type harmony. For harmonic and melodic minor scale and modes there are slightly different approaches smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Jan 22 2010, 06:45 PM
Post #4


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.346
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 22 2010, 06:37 PM) *
Thank you Ben !

This was Superimposing over Major scale/Natural minor scale type harmony. For harmonic and melodic minor scale and modes there are slightly different approaches smile.gif


Yes, so get writing! wink.gif

Just kidding, but if ever you feel like it, it would be very cool - also how they could be combined.

Now, what I'm wondering though is... say on a dominant 7th chord (Say V7 (let's keep it in C major and then it's a G7 chord), would there be another approach to this chord than what you have described above?

Same question could go for the vii b5.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Jan 22 2010, 06:46 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 22 2010, 07:53 PM
Post #5


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jan 22 2010, 06:45 PM) *
Yes, so get writing! wink.gif

Just kidding, but if ever you feel like it, it would be very cool - also how they could be combined.

Now, what I'm wondering though is... say on a dominant 7th chord (Say V7 (let's keep it in C major and then it's a G7 chord), would there be another approach to this chord than what you have described above?

Same question could go for the vii b5.


Sir, YES SIR ! biggrin.gif

For Dom7 type chords there is a lot more things to do. The reason why that happens is there is virtually every possible tension on dom7 type chord (b9, #9, #11 or b5, b13 or #5, natural 13 etc). So having all these tensions available we could be changing pentatonic scale based on tension sound we want to bring out. However, since this thread is directed towards major scale harmony and G7 is within C major scale, obvious answer is that we use minor pentatonic from II, III and VI scale degrees in the key of C smile.gif

Same thing goes for Min7b5 as it can come from many different places (major/natural minor, harmonic and melodic minor!). So based on how you threat the chord you get the available list of minor pentatonics smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Jan 22 2010, 08:36 PM
Post #6


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.346
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 22 2010, 07:53 PM) *
Sir, YES SIR ! biggrin.gif

For Dom7 type chords there is a lot more things to do. The reason why that happens is there is virtually every possible tension on dom7 type chord (b9, #9, #11 or b5, b13 or #5, natural 13 etc). So having all these tensions available we could be changing pentatonic scale based on tension sound we want to bring out. However, since this thread is directed towards major scale harmony and G7 is within C major scale, obvious answer is that we use minor pentatonic from II, III and VI scale degrees in the key of C smile.gif

Same thing goes for Min7b5 as it can come from many different places (major/natural minor, harmonic and melodic minor!). So based on how you threat the chord you get the available list of minor pentatonics smile.gif


That was exactly what I thought. Writing a list down, which I probably should, just seems incomprehensible for me right now. laugh.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Keilnoth
post Jan 22 2010, 08:52 PM
Post #7


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 686
Joined: 10-April 09
From: Switzerland
Member No.: 7.035



Don't worry Cael, even the first thread sounds like Chinese for me...

EDIT: ahah ok my theory sux... tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Keilnoth: Jan 22 2010, 09:59 PM


--------------------

My Guitars: Fender Stratocaster Billy Corgan Signature, Ibanez RG270
My Amp: Peavey Bandit 112
My Pedals: Blackstar HT-Dual, Boss DD-7, Boss CS-3, Boss RC-20
My Wishlist: New bridge + Pickups for my Ibanez, EHX POG2, EHX Cathedral / Holy Grail
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 25 2010, 03:25 AM
Post #8


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jan 22 2010, 08:36 PM) *
That was exactly what I thought. Writing a list down, which I probably should, just seems incomprehensible for me right now. laugh.gif


That is exactly what you should do yes smile.gif

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Jan 22 2010, 08:52 PM) *
Don't worry Cael, even the first thread sounds like Chinese for me...

EDIT: ahah ok my theory sux... tongue.gif


I hope after reading it couple of times it starts to sound like English biggrin.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Jan 30 2010, 08:44 PM
Post #9


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.346
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 25 2010, 03:25 AM) *
That is exactly what you should do yes smile.gif


Well, I actually think I got it completely now after sitting down with the guitar and playing a bit. The thing I lack is the exercusion and just practicing it a lot.

Also, I started writing something for Melodic minor, but I got kinda stuck and don't completely understand why some of the approaches work (like half a step up from over the dominant 7th chord, fifth above etc. etc.). Suddenly there are a lot of relations between notes that I can't really get my head around.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Feb 1 2010, 01:16 AM
Post #10


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jan 30 2010, 08:44 PM) *
Well, I actually think I got it completely now after sitting down with the guitar and playing a bit. The thing I lack is the exercusion and just practicing it a lot.

Also, I started writing something for Melodic minor, but I got kinda stuck and don't completely understand why some of the approaches work (like half a step up from over the dominant 7th chord, fifth above etc. etc.). Suddenly there are a lot of relations between notes that I can't really get my head around.


The reason this happens is because you are trying to absorb a lot of things at once! Take each mode and practice it separately first. Then, start connecting them within soloing. After that work on some more exotic approaches and finally mix all those up. Its a lot of practice, it ain't easy, but that is why it does wonders, all you have to do is practice it !


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NoSkill
post Feb 1 2010, 02:53 AM
Post #11


Experienced Tone Seeker
Group Icon

Group: GMC Wiki:er
Posts: 1.038
Joined: 30-January 07
From: Canada
Member No.: 1.135



This is good stuff man! I'm really not good with the, "You can, so go ahead and do it," approach. I really like the, "You can, and this is why," approach to learning. Thanks for taking the time to write this, bro!


--------------------


Still looking for my soul mate, guitar.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 1 2010, 03:00 AM
Post #12


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Superimposing is great. When I first heard about it, I used to jam 3 pentatonic patterns over single minor chord, and after quite some time I still was amazed how much fun there is in that (only) one chord! smile.gif


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Feb 1 2010, 03:57 AM
Post #13


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (NoSkill @ Feb 1 2010, 02:53 AM) *
This is good stuff man! I'm really not good with the, "You can, so go ahead and do it," approach. I really like the, "You can, and this is why," approach to learning. Thanks for taking the time to write this, bro!


You welcome Tom!
I also prefer "You can, and this is why" approach to learning. I just always look for information why something is done certain way or why things work the way they do. I think by understanding things this way it enables you to brake free of those things and be more creative smile.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Feb 1 2010, 03:00 AM) *
Superimposing is great. When I first heard about it, I used to jam 3 pentatonic patterns over single minor chord, and after quite some time I still was amazed how much fun there is in that (only) one chord! smile.gif


Cool story Ivan, glad superimposing works for you man smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 1 2010, 04:28 AM
Post #14


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.346
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Feb 1 2010, 01:16 AM) *
The reason this happens is because you are trying to absorb a lot of things at once! Take each mode and practice it separately first. Then, start connecting them within soloing. After that work on some more exotic approaches and finally mix all those up. Its a lot of practice, it ain't easy, but that is why it does wonders, all you have to do is practice it !


For sure, man. One thing at a time... usually my mind doesn't work that way though. I read a LOT of stuff and don't get it at all. Couple of days later, out of the blue I'm like: "A HA! That's what it's about!"


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jun 7 2010, 11:03 AM
Post #15


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Feb 1 2010, 05:28 AM) *
For sure, man. One thing at a time... usually my mind doesn't work that way though. I read a LOT of stuff and don't get it at all. Couple of days later, out of the blue I'm like: "A HA! That's what it's about!"


I am glad things work for you in any way man smile.gif Hope superimposing is much better now!


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zen
post Jun 7 2010, 12:01 PM
Post #16


Learning Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.114
Joined: 26-January 08
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 3.995



I LOVE your theory explanations man .. If I can understand it, anyone can !! smile.gif


--------------------
"If the need is deep, you WILL find a way , if it isn't, you'll find some excuse"

Check out my Student Instructor Lesson on Metal Riffing HERE

Visit My Youtube Channel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th January 2017 - 03:07 PM