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> Out Of Tune When Bending
gibsonmatte
post Feb 1 2010, 12:01 PM
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Hi,

I just recently bought a new guitar based on the low price and the fact that it looked really cool. I realize that the guitar is somewhat "budget" in terms of performance and whatnot. But it still looks cool and that's good enough for now smile.gif

However I have realized one thing that absolutely drives me crazy when playing it. When bending a tone it actually gets a little out of tune. I realize that this is due to the trem system but it's not ok in any way to get that out of tune while bending. I have seen several videos where this problem is highlighted and the solution seems to be to insert a small piece of wood preventing the trem to "compensate" when bending.

"out of tune" demo:
Hold the 12th fret on the 2nd string and the 15th fret on the 3rd string. bend the 15th fret on the 3rd string to like 17th and only pick the 12th fret on the 2nd string. While bending (the 15th to 17th) I hear that the 12th fret gets a little out of tune.

So, my question is are there anyone out there how has done this or have experienced the "out of tune" thing?

Thanks for any feedback!


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sted
post Feb 1 2010, 12:23 PM
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yeah, dodgy trems are a nightmare for this, stretched trem spring or just badly set up could be the culprit, or it could just be a crap trem (Especially if its a no name FR copy or something).
You can either screw the trem screws right in to get the bridge flat against the body (Not workable with FR to be honest but works on my strat) or block it off completely using a block of wood or a bespoke unit such as a "Tremel-no" (Google it!).

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gibsonmatte
post Feb 1 2010, 12:28 PM
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Thanks sted!

The "Tremel-no" seems awesome! A bit easier than a piece of wood I guess smile.gif

The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.


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Staffy
post Feb 1 2010, 01:14 PM
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I agree to what You say here Sted, but imo. using a tremol-no or block the trem takes away some of the beauties with really having a trem. to grab whenever You need it. The combination light gauge/FR is not a good one imo. and therefore I'm using just standard strat trems or Wilkinsons at the moment. I think the trick here is to intonate the bends instead - eg. You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing....

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gibsonmatte
post Feb 1 2010, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 1 2010, 01:14 PM) *
I agree to what You say here Sted, but imo. using a tremol-no or block the trem takes away some of the beauties with really having a trem. to grab whenever You need it. The combination light gauge/FR is not a good one imo. and therefore I'm using just standard strat trems or Wilkinsons at the moment. I think the trick here is to intonate the bends instead - eg. You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing....

//Staffay


Hi and thanks for the input!
However one thing that I don't fully understand is:
"You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing...."
It is not the actual tone that I'm bending that gets out of tune. It's the other tone (the 12th fret on the 2nd string in my first example). Since this tone isn't bended I'm a little unsure how to "play" or "learn" the instrument to avoid this. If I do/play the exact same on one of my Gibsons the tone is flawless and doesn't get out of tune, so the problem should be connected to the trem system, or not?


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Sensible Jones
post Feb 1 2010, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 11:28 AM) *
The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.

I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


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jafomatic
post Feb 1 2010, 02:59 PM
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Solution: hipshot tremsetter.


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gibsonmatte
post Feb 1 2010, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 02:59 PM) *


Again thanks for all the input in this matter!

Since my skills in drilling, soldering and stuff like that is close to zero I think I will have to go with inserting a small piece of wood smile.gif

QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 02:49 PM) *
I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


I'll be sure to check Pavels lessons!

Let's say you want a open string to ring while bending, then you're lost smile.gif


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Sensible Jones
post Feb 1 2010, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 03:02 PM) *
I'll be sure to check Pavels lessons!

Let's say you want a open string to ring while bending, then you're lost smile.gif

The only way I can think of to achieve it with open strings would be to pull up on the Whammy Bar to raise the open strings accordingly!
smile.gif


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gibsonmatte
post Feb 1 2010, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 04:06 PM) *
The only way I can think of to achieve it with open strings would be to pull up on the Whammy Bar to raise the open strings accordingly!
smile.gif


But that's close to impossible! smile.gif Can't wait to get home though and try this out


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jafomatic
post Feb 1 2010, 04:14 PM
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well, if you're palm muting anyway, seems you could influence the bridge in retaliation to the slackening. That would work for bends an open strings. As always, it would take practice and quite likely a LOT of that practice.


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Sensible Jones
post Feb 1 2010, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 03:14 PM) *
well, if you're palm muting anyway, seems you could influence the bridge in retaliation to the slackening. That would work for bends an open strings.

I was just thinking that myself!!
biggrin.gif


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kahall
post Feb 2 2010, 06:05 AM
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I have seen a YT vid that explains this (can't find it now). I believe it was a Van Halen type demo by someone and it is linked from this forum somewhere. What you have to do is push the trem back down with the palm of your picking hand so that the string you are not bending stays in tune. With all the other things I am trying to do it was just too much even though I did get better at it.
So I put a tremol-no on my cheesy Ibanez and I like it for just this reason.


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sted
post Feb 2 2010, 07:01 AM
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This is the whole reason ive ditched anything with a floating trem, trying to compensate for it through your playing just seems a whole lot of hassle for some whammy wiggles, especially if like me you're always going for guitar hero bends!
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Hammerhead
post Feb 2 2010, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 03:59 AM) *



Yep! ... or this:

http://joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/ESP.html

This works and I've installed one on my strat and love it cool.gif

Here is a vid that discusses the problems with the floating bridge...


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 3 2010, 11:28 PM
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It's not that your guitar is a budget guitar, it's the common problem with tremolos. What you can do is block the tremolo and just do tune down movements.


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thefireball
post May 11 2010, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 06:28 AM) *
Thanks sted!

The "Tremel-no" seems awesome! A bit easier than a piece of wood I guess smile.gif

The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.



I have the exact same guitar and the exact same problem at times. Right now it's fine. I was instructed to put some oil in the pivot points to keep it loose in there. So when you do a dive bomb or a bend, the string won't go flat. And when you pull up on the bar the note won't go sharp. Make sure the trem system is completely horizontal with the body, and the locking nuts are tight (snug - not too tight - found that out the hard way). You'll want to make sure the guitar is in tune before you lock down the nuts though. Once you lock down the nuts, tune up some more with the fine tuner nobs. Of course, you'll want to do some string stretching before you lock down the nuts.

And if you need any help with the string change or setup: check out these videos:
(This guy helped me a lot!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjQ3p5Nh7-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5X7kAGP4o

Hope it all is well right now. smile.gif

QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 08:49 AM) *
I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif



oh cool - thanks! This is what I was looking for (unison bends with trems). I figured that's what you had to do.


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Todd Simpson
post May 11 2010, 12:47 AM
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Some great responses! The guys are right.

1.)Stretch your strings out after changing them. (Bend each one like crazy, dive bomb etc. then retune)
2.)Make sure your in tune before you lock your locking nuts.
3.)You could always set your trem not to float. I have done this on both my Ibanez.
4.)Make sure the locks are tight on the lock nuts but don't strip them.

Hope this helps.
Todd


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