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> Fed Up With Modeling. Using Mic's With Ux1
iamblackmo
post Feb 22 2010, 11:11 PM
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I have a line 6 studio UX1 with pod farm. I just bought it but I am not enjoying the functionality of the built in modeling.

I see that it has a microphone in, so what should I consider if I want to mic my amp and record that way?


What are some fairly inexpensive mics? I know i will also need to have a stand to mount the mic to the amp... Will I need anything else?

Also, this is how I plan on using my amps for any gig i may play. Even if I had a half stack, I would still want to mic it and run it through a P.A so I would consider a nice mic if the price is right but I am on a budget..

Thanks guys.
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Fran
post Feb 22 2010, 11:15 PM
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I'm curious about this as well.

but I wonder if it's actually possible to bypass all modeling on a toneport/podstudio or even a PODX3 to make it work just as a recording interface using a real mic to record a real amp.



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iamblackmo
post Feb 22 2010, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Feb 22 2010, 05:15 PM) *
I'm curious about this as well.

but I wonder if it's actually possible to bypass all modeling on a toneport/podstudio or even a PODX3 to make it work just as a recording interface using a real mic to record a real amp.


Yea, this is what I want. I have all my gear and stomp boxes tuned just as a please. I hate messing around with PODfarm to recreate a sound that is already coming out of my amp.

There has to be a way to bypass all the modeling and just use it as a digital interface

To be clear, the UX1 has a microphone input! So this functionality has to be possible.

This post has been edited by iamblackmo: Feb 22 2010, 11:20 PM
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Fran
post Feb 22 2010, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE (iamblackmo @ Feb 22 2010, 11:19 PM) *
Yea, this is what I want. I have all my gear and stomp boxes tuned just as a please. I hate messing around with PODfarm to recreate a sound that is already coming out of my amp.


+1

It's great when you are hearing that inspiring tone in your amp, and by the time you achieve something similar on the modeller you are already tired to actually record it laugh.gif


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Recording:
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Staffy
post Feb 22 2010, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (iamblackmo @ Feb 22 2010, 11:11 PM) *
What are some fairly inexpensive mics? I know i will also need to have a stand to mount the mic to the amp... Will I need anything else?

Thanks guys.


The mics used for guitar had/and is always Shure SM57, and they dont cost a fortune.... Check with the local dealers, they may be have some used lying around, since its a very common mic for guitar/drums or whatever....

//Staffay


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Crazy_Diamond
post Feb 22 2010, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 22 2010, 05:30 PM) *
The mics used for guitar had/and is always Shure SM57, and they dont cost a fortune.... Check with the local dealers, they may be have some used lying around, since its a very common mic for guitar/drums or whatever....

//Staffay


+1 for the Sm57.... One of the most used mics for micing guitar amp....


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 23 2010, 03:29 AM
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Micing a guitar cab may prove tricky, be aware of that. Room treatment plays significant role in the sound you will record with the microphone, and the sound you here in the room from the amp will never be the same as the one you record through mic. This is because mic isn't the ear smile.gif
If you're really into it, I also recommend SM57 mic, although don't expect wonders with it. The mics gives fair ammount of "grittiness" to the tone, but the sound will be 1 dimensional. Too make it sound believable, you need additional condenser one that you can phase out with the SM57 until you find the right color, and that will pickup wider acoustic range and possibly some ambience if there is any that is worth picking up... Smoothing out the SM57 with a softer mic is standard practice, but you can start from this 1 mic and see how it goes from there.


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jafomatic
post Feb 23 2010, 06:23 AM
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On the technology side, you can of course choose not to add any modeling to the signal chain. Just be aware of the gain knobs on the mic inputs. Adjust with care.



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Staffy
post Feb 23 2010, 09:03 AM
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In terms of micing vs. amp modelling there are a lot of things to consider. Ivan is right here - a condenser mic in the distance will help to phase out the sound, but it can also be done with a regular one, in fact if You play as loud as I use to, you may break the condenser mic. Another version is to use three mics. One close, one some feets away and one room mic. These can later be blended in the mix to get the right tone.

A very common problem with guitar players heard live, is the one that they hear themselves with the amp down with their feet. And people in the audience DOESN'T hear the amp with their feets.... So the sound delivered to the audience gets very often too harsh and with too much treble, since the guitar player doesn't hear the treble part of the sound standing too close to the amp. The same applies when recording an amp. You may experience that You totally have to shift the settings on the amp in order to make it sound what You was actually hearing from the beginning. Confusing? Huh? A common "trick" here is to trying to find the "sweet" spot for the mic(s) by recording the same phrase with different angles on the close mic. For the distant one, You can move Your head and place it in the same spot where the mic is and around that.

Once this is made, comes the next problem - ambience. A "dry" recorded guitar signal does NEVER sound good imo. There is actually a reason why professional studios have "amp rooms" that are totally dry - because they want to put their 8000€ TC-reverb on top of the sound. Hence, the reverb is very important here, and so is of course the EQ also. Electric guitars sounds best in the midrange, and to roll of everything below 150 Hz as well as cutting some low mid-frequency will help the sound.

Another way to do it would be to use cabinet/mic simulators (convolution reverbs) once the dry signal is there - then You can even use the amps line out to get the dry signal.

I agree to that SM57 is in fact a very "bad" mic, its non-responsive, lacks treble and has an uneven frequency response - but that in fact makes it good! You won't get abetter result with using a 1000€ condeser mic (I know, I tried) and there is a reason why all studios I have been in are using these.

So when it comes down to the bitter end, its a matter of experimenting - its not like put up a mic and push the record button. But on the other hand, once You done it and had some success capturing the "real" guitar sound, You will never use a amp sim for a serious recording again.....

//Staffay


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Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string
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Keilnoth
post Feb 23 2010, 10:42 AM
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Not sure but I think you could use something like that as well :
http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/products...prod&id=110

You plug this one in your PC and plug your amp output or effect loop in it. It's 120$.


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Fran
post Feb 23 2010, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 23 2010, 09:03 AM) *
In terms of micing vs. amp modelling there are a lot of things to consider. Ivan is right here - a condenser mic in the distance will help to phase out the sound, but it can also be done with a regular one, in fact if You play as loud as I use to, you may break the condenser mic. Another version is to use three mics. One close, one some feets away and one room mic. These can later be blended in the mix to get the right tone.

A very common problem with guitar players heard live, is the one that they hear themselves with the amp down with their feet. And people in the audience DOESN'T hear the amp with their feets.... So the sound delivered to the audience gets very often too harsh and with too much treble, since the guitar player doesn't hear the treble part of the sound standing too close to the amp. The same applies when recording an amp. You may experience that You totally have to shift the settings on the amp in order to make it sound what You was actually hearing from the beginning. Confusing? Huh? A common "trick" here is to trying to find the "sweet" spot for the mic(s) by recording the same phrase with different angles on the close mic. For the distant one, You can move Your head and place it in the same spot where the mic is and around that.

Once this is made, comes the next problem - ambience. A "dry" recorded guitar signal does NEVER sound good imo. There is actually a reason why professional studios have "amp rooms" that are totally dry - because they want to put their 8000€ TC-reverb on top of the sound. Hence, the reverb is very important here, and so is of course the EQ also. Electric guitars sounds best in the midrange, and to roll of everything below 150 Hz as well as cutting some low mid-frequency will help the sound.

Another way to do it would be to use cabinet/mic simulators (convolution reverbs) once the dry signal is there - then You can even use the amps line out to get the dry signal.

I agree to that SM57 is in fact a very "bad" mic, its non-responsive, lacks treble and has an uneven frequency response - but that in fact makes it good! You won't get abetter result with using a 1000€ condeser mic (I know, I tried) and there is a reason why all studios I have been in are using these.

So when it comes down to the bitter end, its a matter of experimenting - its not like put up a mic and push the record button. But on the other hand, once You done it and had some success capturing the "real" guitar sound, You will never use a amp sim for a serious recording again.....

//Staffay



Ok, after reading that and the rest of the thread I'm sticking to my X3 laugh.gif


--------------------
Guitars:
Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster, Ibanez RG2570MZ, Epiphone SG G-400
Amp:
Vox AC4TVH head + V112TV cab
Effects:
Vox Satchurator, Vox Time Machine, Dunlop CryBaby, Boss MT-2, Boss CE-5, Boss TU-2, Boss ME-70
Recording:
Line-6 POD X3 + FBV-Express, Pandora PX5D

GMC wants YOU to take part in our Guitar-Wikipedia!
Have a good time reading great articles and writing your own with us in our GUITAR WIKI!
Share your playing and get Pro-advice from our Instructors: Join REC
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iamblackmo
post Feb 23 2010, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Feb 23 2010, 10:16 AM) *
Ok, after reading that and the rest of the thread I'm sticking to my X3 laugh.gif



Yea, me too. LOL. I am getting used to pod farm. Ill go for my halfstack first, then buy that kind of recording gear.
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jafomatic
post Feb 23 2010, 04:41 PM
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Were you having trouble with a specific preset or model? People ask me how I mic my amp and yet ... I'm using pod farm.

So I'm thinking perhaps you are (or were) suffering from the common mistake that everyone makes at first: using too much stuff without really dialing in a good tone individually.


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Staffy
post Feb 23 2010, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Feb 23 2010, 04:16 PM) *
Ok, after reading that and the rest of the thread I'm sticking to my X3 laugh.gif


Hehe.... I'm not trying to make a mystery out of it, thats just some things that going to be considered... I use amp-sims as well at demo-songs etc. , but I'm fortunate enough to have a basement with a 50 sq m. large area just for recording, and I like to just burn the amps out and FEEL the power when I play. It gets a little bit static trying to do that in the studio monitors with an amp sim..... Btw. I just made my bass-player half-deaf, since he hasn't played some serious rock for years, just doing jazz stuff on his upright bass.... laugh.gif

//Staffay

This post has been edited by Staffy: Feb 23 2010, 05:15 PM


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 24 2010, 12:52 AM
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One more important thing is that if you want to make a good guitar sound out of a piece of software that models the real thing, you won't do it without actually trying, playing and knowing how the real thing sounds. This goes not only for amps but other gear as well. So if you have time, go into local store and tryout some of your favorite amps, same ones you have in your modeling software. Then return home, and try to recreate the same sound. You will have much better idea on how to achieve it.


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Bogdan Radovic
post Feb 24 2010, 11:37 PM
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Regarding UX1, yes you can bypass all the effects and modeling and just record the dry mic sound. I can recommend SM57 for recording guitars (as its a standard mic for that) but I don't think you will be able to capture better sound then one in the POD Farm modeling. Maybe you want to look into Guitar Rig 4, Amplitube and other modeling software.


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Staffy
post Feb 24 2010, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Feb 24 2010, 12:52 AM) *
One more important thing is that if you want to make a good guitar sound out of a piece of software that models the real thing, you won't do it without actually trying, playing and knowing how the real thing sounds. This goes not only for amps but other gear as well. So if you have time, go into local store and tryout some of your favorite amps, same ones you have in your modeling software. Then return home, and try to recreate the same sound. You will have much better idea on how to achieve it.


+1 If You don't know how the real thing sounds/feels, You can't make anything out of the modelling either. The risk here, is that You wanna go to the store to buy the amp instead.... (have U got an endorsment with the music stores secret association Ivan??? laugh.gif )

//Staffay


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Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string
Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 24 2010, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 24 2010, 11:41 PM) *
+1 If You don't know how the real thing sounds/feels, You can't make anything out of the modelling either. The risk here, is that You wanna go to the store to buy the amp instead.... (have U got an endorsment with the music stores secret association Ivan??? laugh.gif )

//Staffay


Maybe... maybe not.. who wants to know? ph34r.gif biggrin.gif


I'm regular in stores, sometimes the risk is just too great, I couldn't agree more smile.gif


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Adrian Figallo
post Feb 25 2010, 03:04 AM
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+1, check some other amp sims, i personally LOVE guitar rig 4.


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Daniel Realpe
post Mar 7 2010, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Feb 22 2010, 11:15 PM) *
I'm curious about this as well.

but I wonder if it's actually possible to bypass all modeling on a toneport/podstudio or even a PODX3 to make it work just as a recording interface using a real mic to record a real amp.


it is possible...you can use it a a preamp for the mic


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