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> Well, Im Back And I Have A Serious Issue !
Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 3 2010, 04:43 AM
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Hey everyone. It feels good to be back. I havnt forgotten about this Guitar Paradise.


A lot has happened sense my last posts, and my metal band finally has all the right memebers to start making great music, so this is good news!




Now this has been a problem for me for awhile. It is my right hand speed and technique. Our band finally has a drummer that can cover songs like

All That Remains- This Calling, and Six

Lamb of God- Ruin, Omerta, and Laid to Res

and so on.

The problem I am having is my right hand technique.
I cant sustain the speed needed to play those songs
as seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuPSSyF5UE0 Here <


I am having a lot of stiffness in my tendons and I feel various cracks and pops from my elbow. To put it in simple terms, My arm is getting messed up. I dont know what to do because I need to learn these songs, but everytime I play, there is always a problem with my hands and or arms.

And recommendations would be so helpful sleep.gif


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zen
post Mar 3 2010, 05:16 AM
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Please go see a doc


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jafomatic
post Mar 3 2010, 05:41 AM
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Remember all that time you thought you didn't need to warm up? This is why you need to warm up.

Also: go see the doctor.


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iamblackmo
post Mar 3 2010, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Mar 2 2010, 11:41 PM) *
Remember all that time you thought you didn't need to warm up? This is why you need to warm up.

Also: go see the doctor.


When your body is in pain it means you need to stop. If you give your self a nice workout then allow your body to heal, you will have noticable change but it takes time.
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 3 2010, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Mar 2 2010, 08:41 PM) *
Remember all that time you thought you didn't need to warm up? This is why you need to warm up.

Also: go see the doctor.




You were the first thing I thought of when this happened.

I have recently started warming up and it has seemed to help.

I was going to Physical Therapy for awhile and this is a lesson everyone should learn from.


Warming up is important.


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ZakkWylde
post Mar 3 2010, 02:30 PM
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What is the problem exactly?

Are you able to play these tempos easily and for a log time but you get a lot pf pain from playing?
or
Are you not able to play that fast and you have to force yourself (cramping up) and you hurt yourself by doing that?


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sted
post Mar 3 2010, 04:33 PM
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Thats some pretty extreme tempos mate, warming up is essential but also i find it funny that you say your elbow is making these noises? Only in extreme circumstances should your heavy AP or down stroke movement be transferred to your elbow joint, 90% should come from the wrist area.
I tried a fast picking action from the elbow and could feel definite tension in my forearm that was transferred to the elbow joint, also giving extreme fatigue to the arm as well, not good!
I thnk you need to review your technique and try and relax more whilst playing, a good exercise is to fold up a 10 pound note (Mybe a ten dollar bill in your case!) into a square of about an inch and use that as your pick, because you cant attack the strings hard with your picking you learn to back off on the tension and you naturally play a lot softer, try it!
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 3 2010, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Mar 3 2010, 05:30 AM) *
What is the problem exactly?

Are you able to play these tempos easily and for a log time but you get a lot pf pain from playing?
or
Are you not able to play that fast and you have to force yourself (cramping up) and you hurt yourself by doing that?



Well I guess looking at it more closely. I can start by saying that when I am playing, im making a concious effort to be relaxed and what not. And as of recently, to properly warmup and do streches before playing. I guess the problem doesnt start when I have just started to play any of this, but when Im trying to maintain these tempos throughout the whole song. Does that make sense ? It's almost like I will have moments of relaxation and no problems with my wrist ( ultimately where im trying to only pick from), but as the song advances I might get a little stiff in my forearm or a pain on the side of my elbow. It really varies. But I suppose its maintaining the speeds that is the problem.


QUOTE (sted @ Mar 3 2010, 07:33 AM) *
Thats some pretty extreme tempos mate, warming up is essential but also i find it funny that you say your elbow is making these noises? Only in extreme circumstances should your heavy AP or down stroke movement be transferred to your elbow joint, 90% should come from the wrist area.
I tried a fast picking action from the elbow and could feel definite tension in my forearm that was transferred to the elbow joint, also giving extreme fatigue to the arm as well, not good!
I thnk you need to review your technique and try and relax more whilst playing, a good exercise is to fold up a 10 pound note (Mybe a ten dollar bill in your case!) into a square of about an inch and use that as your pick, because you cant attack the strings hard with your picking you learn to back off on the tension and you naturally play a lot softer, try it!



The elbow thing really varies, like I said right about this. However, when my arm is tense or has stiffness, it is pretty bad.

The best way I can describe the stiffness in my tendons and what not, is when its bad, Its almost like im flexing my arm and all the muscles stay in that postion, but the problem is......im not flexing my arm. Thats just how tense everything is. There are definatley various knots in my muscle groups as well.


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Fran
post Mar 3 2010, 05:28 PM
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As others said, go see a doctor. Better safe than sorry.

You might be pushing yourself too far, trying to play fast stuff that might require practicing slower and slowly increase the speed.


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jafomatic
post Mar 3 2010, 05:48 PM
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between now and the time that your doctor's appointment is set, try adding more of these two things to your diet:
- potassium (I like bananas for this)
- protein (tuna, chicken, those ionized-whey protein drinks, whatever)

Sounds (to me, your imaginary guitar friend, NOT a doctor) less like a joint or inflammation problem and more like muscle fatigue. When muscle tears, it requires protein to rebuild the next day. When muscle knots up and cramps, it generally indicates a lack of potassium in the diet.

Again, I am not a doctor or any kind of expert, but I believe you will be able to increase stamina for this type of playing with a little more good stuff in your diet.



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ZakkWylde
post Mar 3 2010, 05:50 PM
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Go and see a doctor, just to be sure that there is nothing wrong!

My guess is that you just aren't accustomed to playing such extreme metal (yet). It takes some practice to get the physical endurance to play these riffs and if you are not *trained enough* you will hurt yourself over - just like when you try to run a marathon without any practice beforehand...

Simple endurance practice: Play these songs STANDING UP over and over and stop when you are hurting... look at your picking and try to use the wrist more at highs speeds !


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 3 2010, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Mar 3 2010, 08:48 AM) *
between now and the time that your doctor's appointment is set, try adding more of these two things to your diet:
- potassium (I like bananas for this)
- protein (tuna, chicken, those ionized-whey protein drinks, whatever)

Sounds (to me, your imaginary guitar friend, NOT a doctor) less like a joint or inflammation problem and more like muscle fatigue. When muscle tears, it requires protein to rebuild the next day. When muscle knots up and cramps, it generally indicates a lack of potassium in the diet.

Again, I am not a doctor or any kind of expert, but I believe you will be able to increase stamina for this type of playing with a little more good stuff in your diet.



Yeah I have been reading all over about diet and playing and this just reinforces all of those points I neglected. I will get on the diet thing.

Truth be told, when I went to the doctor months ago for this, you know where she sent me ? ......Physical therapy.
I think im very close to figuring out the problem, it lies in my technique itself. I dont think I was angling the pick enough, thus resulting in me overworking which equals= muscle pain= stiffness= etc.

I really appreciate your help. Im done being stubborn with all of this stuff, im going back to listening to the people who have been telling me this all along ! wink.gif

QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Mar 3 2010, 08:50 AM) *
Go and see a doctor, just to be sure that there is nothing wrong!

My guess is that you just aren't accustomed to playing such extreme metal (yet). It takes some practice to get the physical endurance to play these riffs and if you are not *trained enough* you will hurt yourself over - just like when you try to run a marathon without any practice beforehand...

Simple endurance practice: Play these songs STANDING UP over and over and stop when you are hurting... look at your picking and try to use the wrist more at highs speeds !


Yeah me sitting all the time is resulting in bad posture, hence me slouching, that doesnt help either * Puts strap on Guitar *


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Bondy
post Mar 3 2010, 07:28 PM
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+1 on the doctor front ESJ, I also didn't do a warm up until recently, so I will consider my self warned again and keep it up. glad to see you back anyway smile.gifsmile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 3 2010, 09:32 PM
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Do you have problems when playing these songs while sitting or standing? Possibly the problem is now that you have a band and need to play it while standing, so the position is changed and the hand is struggling.


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 3 2010, 09:55 PM
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@ Ivan

I guess I mainly practice it sitting, I tend to want to practice them sitting more because I feel once I get it down sitting, standing wont be a problem ?


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sted
post Mar 3 2010, 10:25 PM
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its definitley in the technique mate, if you do practice sitting use a proper classical position (You may need to use a footstool with an electric) with correct posture and just concentrate on relaxing and breathing keeping your back nice and straight. it feels alien but a natural posture will make playing standing up more familiar. And try the picking sensitivity exercise i said above, i got it from a profeesional guitar player and you can barely see his movements they are that small!
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 3 2010, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Mar 3 2010, 09:55 PM) *
@ Ivan

I guess I mainly practice it sitting, I tend to want to practice them sitting more because I feel once I get it down sitting, standing wont be a problem ?


I'm afraid that is not true mate, changing position will drastically change the way your fingers have to move, depending on how low you have your guitar. Usually the tendons are stretched out when standing because they try to be in the same position as when sitting, which causes problems. Try to practice everything you play on stage/in studio while standing at home, and raise the guitar stripe a bit.


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Mar 4 2010, 04:17 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Mar 3 2010, 02:14 PM) *
I'm afraid that is not true mate, changing position will drastically change the way your fingers have to move, depending on how low you have your guitar. Usually the tendons are stretched out when standing because they try to be in the same position as when sitting, which causes problems. Try to practice everything you play on stage/in studio while standing at home, and raise the guitar stripe a bit.



Well, just goes to show you learn something new each day ! smile.gif


My strap is always really high, my bandmates sometimes pick on me lol I would rather be more precise then look cool though.


And @ Sted, Im going to try it the Dollar Bill thing. If only I could find my wallet laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Eat-Sleep-andJam: Mar 4 2010, 04:21 AM


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Kristian Hyvarin...
post Mar 4 2010, 07:33 AM
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I agree with Ivan, playing while standing can be a whole different world from playing while sitting. I practice both ways, usually in a way that my straps are a bit lower than where the guitar is on my lap while sitting. I once injured my wrist a bit when I lowered the straps too low - it's a thing that you've got to be really careful with.

I don't care if a guitarist has the straps too high, all I care about is the music and of course the show. And if the show is dependant of the guitarists straps, it really ain't much of a show. wink.gif

I recommend doing at least half of your training while standing (band training counts, I guess) since you're playing in a band. It might feel really awkward at first, but after you've practiced, let's say, some 10 hours in total while standing up, it shouldn't bring that much trouble anymore.
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Bogdan Radovic
post Mar 7 2010, 06:25 PM
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This is very true! Over the years I developed a habit to practice standing (more the sitting down as it gets easier). I find it easier to go from standing to sitting then vise versa. Also make sure that you adjust the strap while sitting down that way that its tight - so that guitar stays in almost same place once you stand up. Since you have a band now, you need to be practicing more while standing up and you will be more comfortable in the studio or on stage later on.

Other than that, keep practicing the song and stamina. Make the exercises you practice for technique longer 1-2 minutes or more at constant playing time to see where when you start to get tired.


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