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> About Modes And Scales
Kristian Hyvarin...
post Mar 7 2010, 12:17 AM
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Hey,

I get the idea about modes and scales and how each mode is actually a part of the Major scale. But does it work like I'm about to tell?

I have G Mixolydian in the A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a G (major?) backing chord, I'm actually using "G Mixolydian" even though it's just A minor.

Or another one: I have E Phrygian in A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a E (minor?) backing chord, I'm actually using E Phrygian.

I understand that the modes depend on the backing chord, so does it work like that?

- Krisu
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stratman79
post Mar 7 2010, 01:13 AM
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Yh I suppose that works.. If your playing A natural minor not if you play A dorian or A Phygian...

I don't like the whole Dorian is D-D in C approach... I mean its right but it's not the best way to think about it IMO

I prefer to think about it as degrees of a scale.

i.e

Ionian - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Dorian - 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phygian - 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian - 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
Mixolydian -1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian -1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian -1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

That way you don't end up your playing A natural minor licks over G major chords and playing your stock A minor licks (where the notes you use to bend and base your phrases round won't work to as well) you end up basing your licks around G and you u get better phrases...

anyway as you say its about the underlying chords and what degrees you play over the top...

This post has been edited by stratman79: Mar 7 2010, 01:15 AM
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Muris Varajic
post Mar 7 2010, 03:05 AM
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Stratman79 gave you some nice info on how you should approach to modes. wink.gif


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Ruzz
post Mar 7 2010, 09:42 AM
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QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Mar 7 2010, 12:17 AM) *
Hey,

I get the idea about modes and scales and how each mode is actually a part of the Major scale. But does it work like I'm about to tell?

I have G Mixolydian in the A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a G (major?) backing chord, I'm actually using "G Mixolydian" even though it's just A minor.

Or another one: I have E Phrygian in A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a E (minor?) backing chord, I'm actually using E Phrygian.

I understand that the modes depend on the backing chord, so does it work like that?

- Krisu


Theoratically these things are correct. They will however not work that good in reality..
You also need to be able to consider the modes as regular scales..

So why does this thought pattern not "really" work?..
Well obviously the notes in the scales are the same.. But the important notes are not..
You have perhaps heard about strong notes when improvising.. These tones are also called the chord tones. Especially the notes that give the chord its flavor (third and extensions) but also root!
If you play an A minor scale over a G chord to get the mixolydian sound it would feel natural to your fingers to land on these strong notes.. But the strong notes of an A minor scale (Root: A, Minor third: C) are not the same as the strong notes of the G mixolydian scale (Root: G, Major third: Bb)..

Hope this explanation clarified some things smile.gif


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Kristian Hyvarin...
post Mar 7 2010, 11:35 AM
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Yeah, thanks mates. I had something like this in my mind! smile.gif Of course I don't want to be playing A minor licks over a G major even if I was using the A natural minor scale.

Cheers. smile.gif
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Staffy
post Mar 7 2010, 11:49 AM
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QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Mar 7 2010, 11:35 AM) *
Yeah, thanks mates. I had something like this in my mind! smile.gif Of course I don't want to be playing A minor licks over a G major even if I was using the A natural minor scale.

Cheers. smile.gif


Hey, why not??? It may sound good - if You land on the right note(s)... When playing over a static root, You may use all the "modes" to simulate chord movements related to the root. However, A-minor and the other "modes" shall not be seen as separated from the G, rather alternative fingerings for the same thing - eg. if You are playing on a G-major chord, You certainly want it to sound like G-major, in the first place at least, and then will automatically all the modes across the neck be incoorporated... Hope I didn't mess up Your thinking here... tongue.gif

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Daniel Realpe
post Mar 14 2010, 09:04 PM
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THe fact that the backgroun chord is a MINOR one pretty much defines what modes you can play and what others might not work as well.

So one key factor is realize that modes just change the center tone of the same scale not the scale, unless you are not confined by a mode (minor) in the backing.


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Emir Hot
post Mar 14 2010, 11:21 PM
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As many said, you should always develop licks arround your chord progression and always know where your root is while the progression is changing. I see no point thinking of G if the chord is Am. You will still be playing right notes but your lines might sound with not much sense. Learn all mode shapes individualy and that way you'll be safe. The only exception that I struggle with is Locrian (m7b5). When that chord comes I simply play major scale half step up and that's my locrian approach but I should really also learn that one better so I don't cheat smile.gif


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BK Project X
post Mar 15 2010, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Mar 6 2010, 06:17 PM) *
Hey,

I get the idea about modes and scales and how each mode is actually a part of the Major scale. But does it work like I'm about to tell?

I have G Mixolydian in the A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a G (major?) backing chord, I'm actually using "G Mixolydian" even though it's just A minor.

Or another one: I have E Phrygian in A minor scale. So if I play notes from A minor scale over a E (minor?) backing chord, I'm actually using E Phrygian.

I understand that the modes depend on the backing chord, so does it work like that?

- Krisu


What you have my friend is the million dollar question.

I have made a simpler version of how to understand this to help my students get started with music theory, I’ll explain it here.
Keep in mind that most people don’t tell the secrets I’m about to unleash, whether they don’t want to share the info or they just don’t know it. I charge quite a bit of money for this so don't give it away lol, but I’ll give you a little about how I help make it work for my students.

First, lets make it simple so you can understand it whether you understand music jargon or not.

When you play a normal scale you are playing the diatonic scale, the diatonic scale has seven notes.
Most of my students have heard Doh Ray Me Fah Soh La Ti Doh, if not; it is the sound of the seven notes of the diatonic scale for the key of C Major.

The scales are seven notes and each has their own scale pattern to play in C major, (or any other key, we just have to start at a different place).

REMEMBER THIS! The scales come in this order: Ionian, Dorian, Phyrigian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Let’s take a look at the C natural scale. It is C D E F G A B. We complete it with a resolve of C. We call it the Ionian Scale. SO learn the pattern if you don’t already know it, (I know you do, but anyone else reading this needs to learn it first before reading on.)

Ok, if we assign a sound to each note we have C = Doh, D = Ray, E = Me,F = Fah, G = Soh, A = La, Ti = B and then back to Doh at C again. We keep playing this in order to go down all six strings. Same order each time, which is what the pattern of the Ionian scale, shows us. Play the pattern as you learned it starting at your resolve or the second C note you arrive at while playing the Ionian scale, ( D string 10th fret) you see it continues the Doh Ray Me etc etc.

So far you should have followed along quite easily; I’ll try to keep it that way.

You have just ascended the strings to play that scale, now play it ascending the neck on one string, use the low E, it makes the rest of this easy. If you played the same notes on the low E string you just played the Ionian scale on one string. Remember this!

Now let’s move to the D note of the Ionian scale on the low E string. It is our “Ray” note. So now we will play the Dorian pattern. Did you notice you just played Ray Me Fah Soh La Ti Doh Ray? Well if you didn’t notice, that is what you did. Did you notice that all the Doh’s were C and all the Ray’s were D and all the La’s were A and so on and so forth?

Hope you did. The rest of it works this way. Each note in your scale is associated with the mode names:
Doh = Ionian, Ray = Dorian, Me = Phrygian, Fah = Lydian, Sah = Mixolydian, La = Aeolian, Ti = Locrian.
So if we start with the relative minor of C major, A minor, we are starting with the La. We play the Aeolian pattern and we have La Ti Doh Ray Me Fah Soh La.

If you want to know which ones are “Major” and which ones are minor, look at the 3rd. Is in the same location as the Ionian scale? Then it is Major, if it is in the same position as the Aeolian scale, then it is Minor. That’s a whole different lesson.

So if you get a song in A minor, you can play the Aeolian scale at A on the low E string, then the Locrian scale at the B on the low E string, then the Ionian scale at the C on the low E string, then the Dorian scale at the D on the low E string, get the idea?

By the way, I look at it this way, if you start with Aeolian and stay in that mode, you are playing the Aeolian scale, not matter what pattern you are playing at the time, G Mixolydian is still the Aeolian mode if that is where you started and did not change.

So what happens if the song is G minor? Just move all the scales up to the G. You play the Aeolian scale at the G on the low E string, you play the Locrian scale at the A on the low E string, you play the Ionian scale at the A# on the low E string. You connect them all together and you play all over the neck with the diatonic scale.

So when you play A minor starting at the A on the low E string, you still have the Mixolydian scale at the G on the low E string. The Lydian scale at F on the low E string etc. etc. You see, the scale patterns show you how to play the same seven notes over and over on the guitar neck. If you want a safe zone for the resolve, to make it sound like you have an ending to your solo, find the root note, in this case, an A. There are other, deeper ways to get a resolve, but start with the root until you know where it is at all times.

I tell my students to learn the root in their pentatonic patterns, it’s easier that way and if you use a counting system of 1 2 3 4 5, you’ll see all the roots are 1’s. When you start the pentatonic second pattern, you start counting with 2, the third you start counting with 3, all the roots are still 1’s. (Unless we play the pentatonic over a major song, then this changes, a whole different lesson). The pentatonic patterns are based on the major modes, they’re just missing the Fah and the Ti notes or the Lydian and the Locrian notes. So we have 5 notes and 5 patterns, but that’s a whole different lesson.

Any questions about this, just ask. [email protected] is my guitar questions email. This should help you get started on the right path with scales and modes and help you understand a lot of what is going on here when you see the instructors playing all over the neck. There are also Dominates and Sub Dominates, but that is a whole… you know.
Happy Jamming!

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This post has been edited by BK Project X: Mar 15 2010, 10:22 PM
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zen
post Mar 15 2010, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (BK Project X @ Mar 15 2010, 09:37 PM) *
What you have my friend is the million dollar question.

I have made a simpler version of how to understand this to help my students get started with music theory, I'll explain it here.
Keep in mind that most people don't tell the secrets I'm about to unleash, whether they don't want to share the info or they just don't know it. I charge quite a bit of money for this so don't give it away lol, but I'll give you a little about how I help make it work for my students.



....but those awesome secrets are available on this site for $30 per month.


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BK Project X
post Mar 15 2010, 01:36 PM
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Sure they are, if you search, compile, comprehend, do the math, and have an epiphany, it's all right in front of you. lol. Zen is right, it’s all here, I just tried to put it in a neat little package for you.

Keep Rockin my friend!

BK
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zen
post Mar 15 2010, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (BK Project X @ Mar 15 2010, 11:36 PM) *
Sure they are, if you search, compile, comprehend, do the math, and have an epiphany, it's all right in front of you. lol. Zen is right, it's all here, I just tried to put it in a neat little package for you.

Keep Rockin my friend!

BK


Your answer was great man biggrin.gif .. much appreciated


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Kristian Hyvarin...
post Mar 15 2010, 07:08 PM
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Wow!

BK Project X, thank you for that very thorough answer! smile.gif
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