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Modes 101, Part 2 - The Theory
sillyman
Jun 7 2007, 08:48 PM
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ah my toroise brain has finally caught up thanks andy

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Andrew Cockburn
Jun 7 2007, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (sillyman @ Jun 7 2007, 03:48 PM) *
ah my toroise brain has finally caught up thanks andy


smile.gif Hope it all makes sense now ...

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DeepRoots
Jun 25 2007, 10:46 PM
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Hey Andrew just a quick one- would it be practical to change from say E minor to E phrygian (for example) in a song/solo to add some spice or should it be strictly over a phrygian progression (or whatever mode your using). Or...Using E minor would i have to switch to a B Phrygian progression to get the "Phrygian Sound"

Thanks

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Andrew Cockburn
Jun 25 2007, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Jun 25 2007, 05:46 PM) *
Hey Andrew just a quick one- would it be practical to change from say E minor to E phrygian (for example) in a song/solo to add some spice or should it be strictly over a phrygian progression (or whatever mode your using). Or...Using E minor would i have to switch to a B Phrygian progression to get the "Phrygian Sound"

Thanks


You can do either:

Changing from E minor (Aeolian) to E phyrgian would probably work, but they would need a different chord sequence unless you chose your chords carefully. They are somewhat compatible both being minor in nature. This would be a truly modal change.

Or you could move to the relative phrygian of E Aeolian which is B as you said - then you would be using the phrygian in passing, which would give you a flavour of it, but you would still be using the same notes and same chords.

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Ryan
Jun 29 2007, 04:33 AM
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Wow, I understand now. I have seen the light biggrin.gif. I learned the whole C Major Scale. And then wow. I now understand modes. Well not all of it, but wow!! laugh.gif

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Andrew Cockburn
Jun 29 2007, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (Ryan @ Jun 28 2007, 11:33 PM) *
Wow, I understand now. I have seen the light biggrin.gif. I learned the whole C Major Scale. And then wow. I now understand modes. Well not all of it, but wow!! laugh.gif


Great smile.gif

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kjutte
Jul 18 2007, 05:25 PM
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I was thinking about this last night. I realized I hadn't been playing all the modes, I have been playing Eminor all the damn time! E minor won't give you G Ionian, as I thought, but E Ionian! THANKS GUITAR MASTERCLASS!

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Blairkelley
Feb 11 2008, 05:39 PM
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It appears that in the first lesson, we were to remember the particular formula for each mode in the scale. But it in the second lesson, it's shown that they relate to another scale, ie. C dorian is Bb major with a different root note or C mixolydian is F major with C root. So when playing modes should I always go to the corresponding major scale?

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 11 2008, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Blairkelley @ Feb 11 2008, 11:39 AM) *
It appears that in the first lesson, we were to remember the particular formula for each mode in the scale. But it in the second lesson, it's shown that they relate to another scale, ie. C dorian is Bb major with a different root note or C mixolydian is F major with C root. So when playing modes should I always go to the corresponding major scale?


Thats really just 2 different ways of answering the same question - if you go to the correct box of the major scale (adjusting the root note appropriately) you will see that the scale then has the formula I gave you for each mode.

The key here is to understand that when selecting the appropriate major scale you then have to change the root note to suit the mode you are using. For example, if you want to play D Dorian, you can use the C major scale pattern you are used to, but start the scale on the D note not the C note. If you do this, the forumla will automatically take care of itself smile.gif

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Blairkelley
Feb 11 2008, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2008, 01:13 PM) *
Thats really just 2 different ways of answering the same question - if you go to the correct box of the major scale (adjusting the root note appropriately) you will see that the scale then has the formula I gave you for each mode.

The key here is to understand that when selecting the appropriate major scale you then have to change the root note to suit the mode you are using. For example, if you want to play D Dorian, you can use the C major scale pattern you are used to, but start the scale on the D note not the C note. If you do this, the forumla will automatically take care of itself smile.gif


Thanks, great lesson.

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FretDancer69
Feb 12 2008, 05:24 AM
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Great lesson Andrew. I didnt understsand much the parts where you showed the diagrams, but ill re-read that tomorrow. Just one quick question:

Is the Harmonic Minor scale a mode? if not, why not? It has a sharpened 7th. A Phrygian has a flattened 2nd, why cant the Harmonic Minor scale be counted as a mode (if its not that is)?

Thanks, and great lesson btw!!

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 12 2008, 11:28 PM
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Harmonic minor is not mode of the major scale - its as simple as that! A mode isn;t just a scale that differs from another by one note, you generate them in the way described above by moving through the scale and changing the root note. If you do that, at no point do you get a harmonic minor scale so it is not a mode of the major scale.

Now, in a more general sense, Harmonic minor is a mode - it is Mode I of the harmopnic minor scale. Just like the major scale, the harmonic minor scale has its own set of modes generated in the exact same way, for instance, Phrygian Dominant is mode V of the Harmonic minor scale.

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FretDancer69
Feb 13 2008, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 12 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Harmonic minor is not mode of the major scale - its as simple as that! A mode isn;t just a scale that differs from another by one note, you generate them in the way described above by moving through the scale and changing the root note. If you do that, at no point do you get a harmonic minor scale so it is not a mode of the major scale.

Now, in a more general sense, Harmonic minor is a mode - it is Mode I of the harmopnic minor scale. Just like the major scale, the harmonic minor scale has its own set of modes generated in the exact same way, for instance, Phrygian Dominant is mode V of the Harmonic minor scale.


ohmy.gif oh i see. Ok, thanks Andrew.

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eddiecat
Feb 13 2008, 07:08 AM
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These lessons are awesome Andrew!
And I would recommend everyone to practice Wallimann's "Learning the Modes" lesson.
In that lesson he is actually playing what Andrew is saying:
he goes through all the modes starting from the same root note.
You'll understand that modes are different scales
and not just scales you already know with a different root note,
and how different they sound.

Andrew, this theory board is incredible,
and I also think that you have a great taste in playing.

All the best, Eddie

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 14 2008, 12:59 AM
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Thanks Eddie, its great that you like my lessons, and even my playing smile.gif

You are absolutely right - Dave's lessons are an essential way to cement this theory into your playing, I practice that one a lot myself.

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Qube
Jun 16 2008, 02:46 PM
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Thanks, finally I understand this! smile.gif

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Nighthawk1
Jul 30 2008, 05:19 PM
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Hey guys I please need help with that topic because I am still stuck at one point which concerns generating the modes.
I understood the one direction but not the other. Play the D-Mixolydian Scale !
Ok, for that I have to ask myself which scale has D as it's fifth degree - if I find this out I know that I have to play this scale just beginning from the 5th note right?
And here I am stuck...if I have D how do I get the Major Scale then....on which scale do I have to count backwards ? Sure on the D mixolydian scale but I don't know what the D mixolydianScale is yet at this moment and the whole reason of counting back was to find that out in the first place...Do you get me? I am confused...please help unsure.gif
Or do I really have to learn the intervals of the modes by heart? I thought I didn't have to do that because of this detour of "what scale has D as is 5th degree" question.

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DeepRoots
Jul 30 2008, 05:29 PM
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I reccomend you learn the intervals of each mode- and not just treat them as "starting from the 5th note" of the "parent" scale.

Learning the intervals will help you understand how each mode differs from the other- and therefore give you some idea of which are interchangable in certain soloing situations.

Also, learn the patterns. You can get the 3 notes per string patterns from part 2 of my lesson in my signature.

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kjutte
Jul 30 2008, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 06:19 PM) *
Hey guys I please need help with that topic because I am still stuck at one point which concerns generating the modes.
I understood the one direction but not the other. Play the D-Mixolydian Scale !
Ok, for that I have to ask myself which scale has D as it's fifth degree - if I find this out I know that I have to play this scale just beginning from the 5th note right?
And here I am stuck...if I have D how do I get the Major Scale then....on which scale do I have to count backwards ? Sure on the D mixolydian scale but I don't know what the D mixolydianScale is yet at this moment and the whole reason of counting back was to find that out in the first place...Do you get me? I am confused...please help unsure.gif
Or do I really have to learn the intervals of the modes by heart? I thought I didn't have to do that because of this detour of "what scale has D as is 5th degree" question.


Well, the easiest way to start off with is to learn all the 7 boxes of the majorscale. then you'll also know that mixo is equal to the major pattern, but has a flat7th. That's why it's dominant, because of the major 3rd and minor 7th.

ANYWAY, yes, it's another startingpoint.
In D Mixo you'll start off in the 5th degree of the majorscale. HOWEVER, since it's in mixo, this will actually be the first degree.
That means that the chord progression also changes.

SO, to play in true mixo, you'd do like this for example.

C7 Dmin Edim Fmaj Gmin Amin Bbmaj C7.
You see, the progression changes.

In Ionian the progression would be maj, min min maj maj min dim, however in mixo, you see it's maj (or dominant if you add a seventh) min dim maj min min maj.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Edit:
Unless you know all the notes of the neck, and the scale you're playing by heart, it's quite essential that you already know the 7 patterns of the majorscale. If you don't, then learn them first.

Re edit: After reading your post again I see you're definitely not ready for modes. I would strongly recommend you to learn the majorscale before you start with this. when you learn the 7 notes of the scale, and its 7 chords (read chords for scales by andrew), then you're ready.

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This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 30 2008, 05:38 PM
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Nighthawk1
Jul 30 2008, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 06:29 PM) *
Well, the easiest way to start off with is to learn all the 7 boxes of the majorscale. then you'll also know that mixo is equal to the major pattern, but has a flat7th. That's why it's dominant, because of the major 3rd and minor 7th.

ANYWAY, yes, it's another startingpoint.
In D Mixo you'll start off in the 5th degree of the majorscale. HOWEVER, since it's in mixo, this will actually be the first degree.
That means that the chord progression also changes.

SO, to play in true mixo, you'd do like this for example.

C7 Dmin Edim Fmaj Gmin Amin Bbmaj C7.
You see, the progression changes.

In Ionian the progression would be maj, min min maj maj min dim, however in mixo, you see it's maj (or dominant if you add a seventh) min dim maj min min maj.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Edit:
Unless you know all the notes of the neck, and the scale you're playing by heart, it's quite essential that you already know the 7 patterns of the majorscale. If you don't, then learn them first.

Re edit: After reading your post again I see you're definitely not ready for modes. I would strongly recommend you to learn the majorscale before you start with this. when you learn the 7 notes of the scale, and its 7 chords (read chords for scales by andrew), then you're ready.

Thanks for the answer pal...well actually I know the major scale very well and I understand it's chords how they and major scales are constructed and stuff...the chords for scale lesson I understood 100% that's also the reason why I understood your argumentation of the progresssion you mentioned...so you are not right on this one...
So you would say if I want to play d mixolydian I just play normal d major but keep in mind that I have to play the flattened 7th right?Then I have the Mixolydian mode in D...this is another approach than the counting back thing in Andrews lesson I am still not so sure about

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This post has been edited by Nighthawk: Jul 30 2008, 05:52 PM
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