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> Modes 101, Part 2 - The Theory
kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Thanks for the answer pal...well actually I know the major scale very well and I understand it's chords how they and major scales are constructed and stuff...the chords for scale lesson I understood 100% that's also the reason why I understood your argumentation of the progresssion you mentioned...so you are not right on this one...
So you would say if I want to play d mixolydian I just play normal d major but keep in mind that I have to play the flattened 7th right?Then I have the Mixolydian mode in D...this is another approach than the counting back thing in Andrews lesson I am still not so sure about


Oh, when you talked about counting backwards etc I thought you didn't know anything about scales tongue.gif

Ok, well you see, that flat 7th will also result in a change of the chord progression.
You will play the ordinary majorscale, but START at the 5th degree of it. This is because the fith degree has a flat 7.

When you start there, you make that degree your first degree, also called modulating.
When you start off at the mixolydian degree, you will have a different chord progression.

So anyway, yes, you just start off with your mixolydian pattern instead of Ionian, or aeolian, or whatever.

Meaning that your chord pattern will result in Maj min dim maj min min maj, OR mixo degree, aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian phrygian and lydian.
These are just the patterns, don't mind the name.

Because of the flat 7, that's the chord's characteristic. Also, a flat 7 means the lydian degree. Therefore a D7 and Cmaj7 will work really well.

Example of progression for mixolydian:

D7, Cmaj7, Dmaj, cmaj? whatever you wish smile.gif

Edit:
again I emphasize that you're just starting off with the 5th box in the majorscale. This is the Domiant or fith degree.
Am I repetitive? lol.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 30 2008, 06:14 PM
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Nighthawk1
post Jul 30 2008, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 07:12 PM) *
Oh, when you talked about counting backwards etc I thought you didn't know anything about scales tongue.gif

Ok, well you see, that flat 7th will also result in a change of the chord progression.
You will play the ordinary majorscale, but START at the 5th degree of it. This is because the fith degree has a flat 7.

When you start there, you make that degree your first degree, also called modulating.
When you start off at the mixolydian degree, you will have a different chord progression.

So anyway, yes, you just start off with your mixolydian pattern instead of Ionian, or aeolian, or whatever.

Meaning that your chord pattern will result in Maj min dim maj min min maj, OR mixo degree, aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian phrygian and lydian.
These are just the patterns, don't mind the name.

Because of the flat 7, that's the chord's characteristic. Also, a flat 7 means the lydian degree. Therefore a D7 and Cmaj7 will work really well.

Example of progression for mixolydian:

D7, Cmaj7, Dmaj, cmaj? whatever you wish smile.gif

Edit:
again I emphasize that you're just starting off with the 5th box in the majorscale. This is the Domiant or fith degree.
Am I repetitive? lol.

Thanks lot man this way of thinking about how to generate the modes really helps me...Modes are really fascinating when you finally got the hang of it...suddenly the same tones of a c major scale you have been using for ages have an Irish feeling just because you play them in a different context with different progessions namely D-Dorian . Amazing...
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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 08:00 PM) *
Thanks lot man this way of thinking about how to generate the modes really helps me...Modes are really fascinating when you finally got the hang of it...suddenly the same tones of a c major scale you have been using for ages have an Irish feeling just because you play them in a different context with different progessions namely D-Dorian . Amazing...


Anytime, man! If you want more help, add me on msn: [email protected]
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Nighthawk1
post Jul 30 2008, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 08:03 PM) *
Anytime, man! If you want more help, add me on msn: [email protected]

I have no MSN, unfortunately..I have ICQ and skype and a 3rd messenger would be overdone smile.gif I've added you here at GMC though !

This post has been edited by Nighthawk: Jul 30 2008, 07:11 PM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 30 2008, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 02:08 PM) *
I have no MSN, unfortunately..I have ICQ and skype and a 3rd messenger would be overdone smile.gif I've added you here at GMC though !


Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.


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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.


I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 30 2008, 07:32 PM
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Nighthawk1
post Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Regarding the original question ...

Well, you could just know that D is the 5th degree of the G major scale, or you could work backwards using the major formula as follows:

Formula is:

2 2 1 2 2 2 1

we know:

_2_2_1_2_2_2_1
? ? ? ? D


So, to get the root we work backwards from the D and subtract 2 semitones, then 1, then 2, and 2.

That gives us:

D C B A G

Hence it is G major smile.gif

Now, I thought the same way as you about this when I first learnt about modes, but as DR has said, its not really an important point - its far more useful to learn the fingering for D mixolydian than to try and work out that it is a mode of G major - that piece of information is certainly useful but doesn't immediately help you play it.

Thanks Andrew now it clicks in my head tongue.gif what you meant exactly with working backwards..

This post has been edited by Nighthawk: Jul 30 2008, 07:41 PM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 02:31 PM) *
I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...


Don't mistake boxes for modes - rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same, so you keep the concepts separate ...

The best way to think of it IS as a different scale, but one that is related to the major scale, as a result of which, the boxes are reused.


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Nighthawk1
post Jul 30 2008, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 08:31 PM) *
I said degree of major just to illustrate, and make it less alien.
Many mistake it and think it's a whole different scale to learn, but in fact you're just starting on another pattern.

Agreedz0r Andrew?

Edit: And I don't really get your meaning of this, because if you know the fingering of major (the 7 boxes) you also know the fingering of all the modes...

Does your last edit address me or andrew ?Forget it I see you addressed Andrew

This post has been edited by Nighthawk: Jul 30 2008, 07:43 PM
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DeepRoots
post Jul 30 2008, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 07:40 PM) *
rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same

Best damn freakish coincidence of all time?

You got that right biggrin.gif
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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:40 PM) *
Don't mistake boxes for modes - rather think of it as a freakish coincidence that they are the same, so you keep the concepts separate ...

The best way to think of it IS as a different scale, but one that is related to the major scale, as a result of which, the boxes are reused.


I know, the Ionians, Dorians etc had their own way of playing The scale...
They are as you say, equal in fingerings. However I agree with you, becuase of the flats and sharps are their characteristic, and if you know of them, it will be easier to express the mode.
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 30 2008, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Jul 30 2008, 02:42 PM) *
Best damn freakish coincidence of all time?

You got that right biggrin.gif


Of course it isn't a coincidence in reality but it is such a source of confusion that I try and separate the concepts smile.gif

So I would summarize as follows: (I know you know this DR)

Modes are different scales
Modes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and changing the root note

Boxes are not different scales
Boxes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and not changing the root note

As a result of the above:

Modes can be played on the guitar neck by combining the 2 concepts and moving through the patterns of the major scale and changing the root note.


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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Jul 30 2008, 08:41 PM) *
Does your last edit address me or andrew ?Forget it I see you addressed Andrew


Adressed to Andrew buddy.

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 08:49 PM) *
Of course it isn't a coincidence in reality but it is such a source of confusion that I try and separate the concepts smile.gif

So I would summarize as follows: (I know you know this DR)

Modes are different scales
Modes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and changing the root note

Boxes are not different scales
Boxes are generated by stepping through the notes of the major scale and not changing the root note

As a result of the above:

Modes can be played on the guitar neck by combining the 2 concepts and moving through the patterns of the major scale and changing the root note.


By the way, I illustrate with the patterns so that people won't stick in one box. Of course I know that that one box's notes are scattered all over the neck, but everyone doesn't think about that. One step at a time...

By changing the rootnotes you will get another scale, but comparing it to patterns you already know makes it easy, and also a practically correct way to execute it.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 30 2008, 08:03 PM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 30 2008, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 30 2008, 03:00 PM) *
By changing the rootnotes you will get another scale, but comparing it to patterns you already know makes it easy, and also a practically correct way to execute it.


Absolutely true as long as you understand the difference, and a good tip for learning modal boxes quickly!


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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 30 2008, 09:35 PM) *
Absolutely true as long as you understand the difference, and a good tip for learning modal boxes quickly!


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