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> Mtp Issues!, Let's have a discussion about it
lcsdds
post Apr 16 2010, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 05:33 PM) *
Hmmm, I'm with You and Jafo partly here, but I don't see why You can't speak to the instructor about the assignments. I'm doing a MTP with Pedja right now, and we have a dialogue about the assignments and the lessons for the REC as well. I think this can be solved with just a little communication between the student and the teacher. However I think its good for the students to have assignments because it motivates them to perform some practicing - if it would be a "looser" concept lazy students (like me tongue.gif ), will just done the work in half.....
One thing that would be very good though, is to have some sort of quee-list - since there are some students dropping off altready in the first month, these spots can be used for them who have participated before and showed some good motivation.

//Staffay

I agree with you Staffy. I don't think there shouldn't be assignments.....I just don't think that being required to do a REC posting every month is necessary. It takes time learn a lesson properly and then record it and post it. If I want to just spend time learning theory for instance then it could just be dialogue between Pedja and myself for instance.....no need to learn a GMC lesson in this case. I know that the required REC posting has been a turnoff for some students.

However.....some MTP students are total beginners and want the Instructor to guide them. In this case I think that the instructor assigning GMC lessons and requiring a REC posting is a good thing. I guess my point is that the MTP needs to be able to be adapted to a players SPECIFIC needs and wants and not just be a "one size fits all" type of program........\m/\m/

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jafomatic
post Apr 16 2010, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 11:33 AM) *
However I think its good for the students to have assignments because it motivates them to perform some practicing - if it would be a "looser" concept lazy students (like me tongue.gif ), will just done the work in half.....


I think that assignment for the sake of promoting the REC program is not the same kind of animal as an assignment that the instructors might choose which might target a specific need that the student has. That sort of targeted assignment was used in both current and old MTP programs, but a much higher percentage in the older program when assignments were not required but rather used when the tool was appropriate.

Here's the real thing where the results speak for themselves. In the original MTP program, which was unstructured, the students that chose to do the looser assignments improved far more than anyone in the current MTP program has improved. It's not a question of "if it would be "looser" concept" in the future but rather looking at the past. It was done the "looser" way and it succeeded far more when we look at tangible accomplishments by the students that participated.



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lcsdds
post Apr 16 2010, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 16 2010, 05:55 PM) *
I think that assignment for the sake of promoting the REC program is not the same kind of animal as an assignment that the instructors might choose which might target a specific need that the student has. That sort of targeted assignment was used in both current and old MTP programs, but a much higher percentage in the older program when assignments were not required but rather used when the tool was appropriate.

Here's the real thing where the results speak for themselves. In the original MTP program, which was unstructured, the students that chose to do the looser assignments improved far more than anyone in the current MTP program has improved. It's not a question of "if it would be "looser" concept" in the future but rather looking at the past. It was done the "looser" way and it succeeded far more when we look at tangible accomplishments by the students that participated.

I agree here as well. I just think the student should be in charge of what they learn IF THEY WANT TO. In my case I wanted to focus just on AP and it helped my playing TREMENDOUSLY. Now.....I've been playing a long time so I was probably more advanced than a lot of the current MTP'ers. If you have a very new player than it is porbably a good idea to let the instructor have a little more say in the structure of the program. We just need to realize that MTP can greatly benefit advanced players as well as beginners and have the program adapt to the needs of the situation. I think MTP is a great idea......I think the new program is not as good as the old program for sure. We all go through phases of what we want to work on in our development and ultimately MTP should be there to help the player accomplish their IMMEDIATE goals if that is desire of the player. Bottom line to me is this.........less rigidity.
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NoSkill
post Apr 16 2010, 06:20 PM
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Staffy, some instructors are more approachable than others. As hard as it is to generalize the entire program because of the bad experiences of a few, it's equally as difficult to generalize because of the good experiences of a different few. Pedja, as we all know, is in a class of his own, from an instructor standpoint. I don't really see anyone that has had a chance to study with him, that could find fault in the program based on his dedication to it. His is a more isolated situation and can't really be used to describe the program, or answer to maharzan's concerns.


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Staffy
post Apr 16 2010, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Apr 16 2010, 06:46 PM) *
However.....some MTP students are total beginners and want the Instructor to guide them. In this case I think that the instructor assigning GMC lessons and requiring a REC posting is a good thing. I guess my point is that the MTP needs to be able to be adapted to a players SPECIFIC needs and wants and not just be a "one size fits all" type of program........\m/\m/

smile.gif smile.gif


This I agree to fully, for more experienced players that has an idea of what they want to do, a looser model is far more adequate. Still I think the REC-video is a good thing, maybe it dont have to be posted for REC, but for showing the instructor how it really looks when You play.

//Staffay


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jafomatic
post Apr 16 2010, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 12:33 PM) *
This I agree to fully, for more experienced players that has an idea of what they want to do, a looser model is far more adequate. Still I think the REC-video is a good thing, maybe it dont have to be posted for REC, but for showing the instructor how it really looks when You play.

//Staffay


Ah, yes. Requiring that video of playing be posted is totally reasonable. I don't see how that's the same thing as "posting REC submission" however since there are additional rules if the video is to be submitted for actual REC grading.

For example: did you know what happened to the vocal MTP? They were required to sing and play guitar at the same time in order to satisfy REC rules and still required to submit REC to satisfy MTP rules. This rule was added (or clarified?) after the vocal MTP program started. I know you can sing and play at the same time and I know that I have done this also in the past, but a beginner vocalist is going to struggle with that.

One guy even found out that he had to learn two lessons --one vocal, one instrumental-- when that rule was added a week (or less?) before his first REC assignment was due. If the REC requirement drops, that vocal MTP succeeds; the guy was learning and improving.


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Staffy
post Apr 16 2010, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (NoSkill @ Apr 16 2010, 07:20 PM) *
Staffy, some instructors are more approachable than others. As hard as it is to generalize the entire program because of the bad experiences of a few, it's equally as difficult to generalize because of the good experiences of a different few. Pedja, as we all know, is in a class of his own, from an instructor standpoint. I don't really see anyone that has had a chance to study with him, that could find fault in the program based on his dedication to it. His is a more isolated situation and can't really be used to describe the program, or answer to maharzan's concerns.


Ofc. it is, some instructors are better than others in the terms of guiding the students. I had an MTP with Ivan in the old system before as well, but I can't complain about that either - it was just great! One thing we must bear in mind is that most teachers here are not "educated", eg. they have no eduction in how to teach things in a pedagogic way, even that they master their instruments superbly. But as an old teacher of mine stated long time ago: "We have something to learn from every musician we meet". I still think most of the problems can be solved with a little conversation, but I also wish that the system was a little less rigid.

//Staffay


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NoSkill
post Apr 16 2010, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 11:42 AM) *
I still think most of the problems can be solved with a little conversation, but I also wish that the system was a little less rigid.
//Staffay


Sure, but getting back to maharzan's stated concerns, it isn't the lack of attempts at conversation in this instance, it's the lack of replies to them. I agree that conversation can solve many problems. It just requires more than one participant.


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jafomatic
post Apr 16 2010, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 12:42 PM) *
I had an MTP with Ivan in the old system before as well, but I can't complain about that either - it was just great!


Were you using a different username at that time? You and I both joined GMC after that program was locked.

We're also getting away from the fact that instructors are participating in only 3 of 12 weeks paid program for some of these guys. I know at least three members that kept their subscriptions going at the new higher price ONLY because of MTP hopes.


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Staffy
post Apr 16 2010, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 16 2010, 08:03 PM) *
Were you using a different username at that time? You and I both joined GMC after that program was locked.

We're also getting away from the fact that instructors are participating in only 3 of 12 weeks paid program for some of these guys. I know at least three members that kept their subscriptions going at the new higher price ONLY because of MTP hopes.


Hmm, maybe You talk of an even older MTP-system, but when I joined with Ivan there was only some assignments, no REC, no grading, but I can recall that before last Christmas some major changes was made.

Yeah, You've right bout loosing focus here. Obviously, I dont think that the instructors getting paid for 12 weeks, when doin just three - and hence, if the reason for the students membership is the MTP, they shall have their money back, if requested. Otherwise it's like cheating the members imo. However, this is just another reason for lowering the general fee and have a separate fee for the MTP-program, like I wrote before. If You don't get the MTP from the instructors You were signed for - then You don't have to pay for it either.

//Staffay


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jafomatic
post Apr 16 2010, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 01:20 PM) *
Hmm, maybe You talk of an even older MTP-system


Aye, the one before you and I joined really worked. See if you can find some of those guys playing in a "before and after" style and you'll see. The threads may be gone, I'm not sure, but the way it worked was a little complicated looking. Instructor mentored some intermediate guys, the intermediate guys mentored the beginners. So what looked best was Muris mentoring Lcsdds & Roger, then Lcsdds & Roger mentoring Kaznie and some other folks. If you can see Roger & Kaznie's playing before and after that program, the difference is amazing and far more clear than any improvement (or lack of) that's come from the current system.

Regarding the subscription, I don't think anyone here wants to punish GMC. I think folks just want it fixed for the future. The idea that the MTP costs more and base subscription could cost a little less than current --and still more than the original price from years past-- sounds reasonable but I don't really know anything about Kris' costs for bandwidth and payroll.

Anyway, that first MTP model produced far more visible results in far less time than the current model. That should speak loudly enough.


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lcsdds
post Apr 16 2010, 08:14 PM
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You would have to talk to Kaz about this for sure but I know that in my MTP group I was really pushing hard that the students learn to count and use the metronome. If you follow those old threads you will see that Kaz was dead set against it......that is why we started calling the metronome the "Kaz box"...... tongue.gif laugh.gif I also "made" those that didn't know scales and triads learn those.....those are basic to being a good player IMO so I pushed it. I spoke to Kaz via youtube recently and he told me that he has really learned his scales well now and can use them in his playing and that he uses the Kaz box on a daily basis. So for Kaz just those few months of focusing on those things have opened up doors to him. For me personally I posted one vid of me doing some AP excercises and Muris right away told me to change my right hand technique. I struggled through and in the end it paid big dividends for my playing. I still don't have shredtastic AP skills but its getting there and my CONTROL with the pick now is %1000 better than it has ever been which has improved my phrasing and dynamics.

I've been thinking about it a little more and I think Jafo if correct......results of first MTP have been better than the results of the current MTP. smile.gif smile.gif
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jafomatic
post Apr 16 2010, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Apr 16 2010, 02:14 PM) *
results of first MTP have been better than the results of the current MTP. smile.gif smile.gif


I remember the KAZ BOX from that thread quite well, actually, when I was writing about how well that program worked. And the results you, roger, and kaz all showed was really incredible when I went browsing backwards through your youtube accounts.

The competition aspect to become part of that MTP program seemed a little exclusive to me but the rest of its structure and lack of rules-for-rules-sake appears to work very very well.


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Caelumamittendum
post Apr 16 2010, 09:10 PM
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I'm not a paying member anymore, but I'd like to chip in anyway.

The first MTP, which I didn't join or was in, seemed to work very well. The guys that have already been mentioned in this thread improved massively.

I did join the second version (???) of the MTP with Pedja, and it was great to begin with, before the rules kicked in. We communicated a lot (128 posts back and forth in like 7-8 days) and from that I learned the most. The whole rule-set with REC etc. and very strict deadlines was a BIG turn off for me.

I think to step above the rest of internet sites with lessons, GMC needs to accomodate the individuals in the programs more so than what has happened. It shouldn't just be: "for friday learn this". It should be more like a real teacher/student "relationship".

However, I have stopped being a paying member and most likely will not return as a paying member, but I hope you do take in my opinions too. For me the MTP suddenly became about making it easier for the instructor, and of course it shouldn't be that big a hassle, but I think the student should be in focus and choose what to work on etc.


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Staffy
post Apr 16 2010, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 16 2010, 08:42 PM) *
Instructor mentored some intermediate guys, the intermediate guys mentored the beginners. So what looked best was Muris mentoring Lcsdds & Roger, then Lcsdds & Roger mentoring Kaznie and some other folks. If you can see Roger & Kaznie's playing before and after that program, the difference is amazing and far more clear than any improvement (or lack of) that's come from the current system


Well, I didn't know that. It makes sense to me - the intermediate guy's get training from the instructors and then pay back by teaching the beginners. The only problem here would be to judge who shall get training from the instructors???

//Staffay


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lcsdds
post Apr 16 2010, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 16 2010, 09:57 PM) *
The only problem here would be to judge who shall get training from the instructors???

//Staffay

Hence the competition....... smile.gif
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NoSkill
post Apr 16 2010, 10:28 PM
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I think Staff has to go back and read some threads so he's up on the infancy of this program as well as where it is now. wink.gif


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JVM
post Apr 16 2010, 10:47 PM
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Like Caelumamittendum, I'm no longer a paying subscriber, but I would say the original plan with instructor->mentor->beginner layout seemed to work best as well. I had a three month period with Pedja over the holiday season last year, which was great, but I think things were too standardized, which may work well for the instructors, especially I know Pedja had quite a full plate, but I think another model that allows for more individualized practice plans would work better.

This post has been edited by JVM: Apr 16 2010, 10:48 PM


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zen
post Apr 17 2010, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 17 2010, 03:41 AM) *
For example: did you know what happened to the vocal MTP? They were required to sing and play guitar at the same time in order to satisfy REC rules and still required to submit REC to satisfy MTP rules. This rule was added (or clarified?) after the vocal MTP program started. I know you can sing and play at the same time and I know that I have done this also in the past, but a beginner vocalist is going to struggle with that.


Oh, That unfortunate @#$%#% was me laugh.gif
That rule suddenly got introduced at the start of the 3rd month into the program of vocal mtp.
It was going very well till then. The first 2 months were awesome and I learnt a lot. smile.gif
Although, i would love to learn to sing while playing, i thought that would be the next step, after I improve my vocal technique a bit.
If we run a keyboard MTP under Maestro, we're not gonna ask people to play guitar at the same time, are we?
Voice IS another instrument, rarely anyone treats it as such.


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maharzan
post Apr 17 2010, 03:45 AM
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Wow.. quite some discussion going here now. smile.gif Really nice overview and suggestions.

While the deadlines / new rules didn't bother me much as it helped me finish the assignment and 'move on' to next even if I didn't perfect it (pass level). I had new things to learn and it helped quite a bit than sticking to one lesson in my leisure time and practicing it for 3 weeks, you know. But most of us don't really like having deadlines in anything. smile.gif

I would like to know why the old MTP was scrapped and changed? I wasn't here when the old MTP ran. I only joined after it was completed I think and I so wanted to join that program. It WAS THE MAIN ATTRACTION for me. I could learn lessons from any other site you know. There are tabs every where. But there was nothing as MTP at $90 for 3 months (back then). I paid yearly if you were wondering.

I did get a chance to join one later and those first 2 months improved my playing quite a bit, speed, AP. I improved my scales theory (modes) in the 2nd. While a lot of external factors go in here, it would have been perfect if I could have completed both these assignments. At one point, I was waiting for my instructor and asking him when he will be free whenever I meet him, PM, Chat. But I gave up later as I didn't see any chances.

So, set aside other factors, the only concern for me is how to complete one full session of MTP. If 3 months is too long, we can just do 1 month MTP, 4 assignments, FULL STOP. That way, instructors have less time to dedicate, students have more chance to explore and less time to take off from work or schools.

If money is the factor, I agree with Staffay. I am up for lowering the general fee (Its really too high now.. a whooping 150% increase or something) but then for serious learners, separate MTP fee. But it has to make sure the instructors are there for the students when they need it. It has to be from self. Contracts wont' help I think.

If the old MTP works, I am up for teaching absolute beginners. smile.gif If that helps the overall GMC community, and a marketing pitch.

If the new rules are intact, I am definitely up for continuation of MTP if the student is completing all his assignments and eager to learn more.

GMC should really be marketing some advanced players here and keep track of them. I have seen many good players who were once in GMC are no longer with us and I do not see them coming back. If nothing, it would be great to have some interviews or playing on a backing track and tell the new members / potential members about what GMC has achieved and be a motivation to them.

What do you think might help?

Thanks,
maharzan


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