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> Mtp Issues!, Let's have a discussion about it
jafomatic
post Apr 17 2010, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (maharzan @ Apr 16 2010, 09:45 PM) *
If the old MTP works, I am up for teaching absolute beginners. smile.gif If that helps the overall GMC community, and a marketing pitch.


+1 !!!

I'd be up for this as well.


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Staffy
post Apr 17 2010, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (maharzan @ Apr 17 2010, 04:45 AM) *
I would like to know why the old MTP was scrapped and changed? I wasn't here when the old MTP ran. I only joined after it was completed I think and I so wanted to join that program. It WAS THE MAIN ATTRACTION for me. I could learn lessons from any other site you know. There are tabs every where. But there was nothing as MTP at $90 for 3 months (back then). I paid yearly if you were wondering.


If the old MTP works, I am up for teaching absolute beginners. smile.gif If that helps the overall GMC community, and a marketing pitch.

GMC should really be marketing some advanced players here and keep track of them. I have seen many good players who were once in GMC are no longer with us and I do not see them coming back. If nothing, it would be great to have some interviews or playing on a backing track and tell the new members / potential members about what GMC has achieved and be a motivation to them.

Thanks,
maharzan


This I agree too fully. There are plenty of sites/vids/tutorials etc. that can teach You play for free. The MTP is one of the things that make this site unique. I would'nt mind either to have some students to mentor, since I've done a lot of teaching during the years. The only problem herein is however the same as with the current MTP - what happens if an instructor quits/don't have time for his/her students??

The marketing issue is very interesting, I think that GMC shall "brand" the good players on the site, as well as have some sort of "hall of fame", if You can see what I mean here. Those players maybe can have a lifetime membership or something like that. That wouln't be necessary on skill basis, it can be for important contributions to the site or things like that. Also a good thing would be that members that have succeedly completed 3 MTP's (for instance) can have their membership fee reduced. That will make a good motivation for completing the program, and will for sure generate some excellent vids to brand the site with.

Another thing would be to have "users vid of the month" in some sort of competetion way, eg. if You win You can have some month for free.

This is a very interesting discussion, and most of what You guy's say makes sense to me, I only miss some teachers point of view here to make it complete.

//Staffay



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zen
post Apr 17 2010, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 17 2010, 04:45 PM) *
This is a very interesting discussion, and most of what You guy's say makes sense to me, I only miss some teachers point of view here to make it complete.

//Staffay


+1 . Yep. Beats the purpose of making MTP a success, if this becomes a one way discussion. Definitely need opinions/ thoughts of various instructors in here.

This post has been edited by zen: Apr 17 2010, 09:05 AM


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purple hayes
post Apr 18 2010, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE
If the old MTP works, I am up for teaching absolute beginners.


I like this idea too.

I got a lot out of the two MTPs I went through. I'd love to see more people get involved.


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zen
post Apr 18 2010, 02:05 AM
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Quick Question:

In the old mtp system, were the advance students who mentored beginners rewarded in any manner?

I read suggestions around separate fee/package for only the MTP program.... that might have some downsides: anyone (be it a beginner) who pays for it would probably want to be mentored by an instructor, not by an advanced student.


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UncleSkillet
post Apr 18 2010, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE (zen @ Apr 17 2010, 09:05 PM) *
Quick Question:

In the old mtp system, were the advance students who mentored beginners rewarded in any manner?

I read suggestions around separate fee/package for only the MTP program.... that might have some downsides: anyone (be it a beginner) who pays for it would probably want to be mentored by an instructor, not by an advanced student.



In the 1st MTP launch we weren't compensated in any way except to be mentored by the great Muris, which in itself was enough for me. I also just enjoyed helping the other members and trying to make a difference to this site and its members.

This new MTP I do have some problems with. Most of what you guys have been saying I agree with. I don't like the REC requirement the most I think. It just seemed like that was thrown in to promote that program more. The teaching needs to be more personal and tailored to the individual student. I'd rather see 2 assignments a month instead of 4. Seems more realistic. We all have time issues (students and instructors) and the way things are now you would have to make this a full time job to teach and or get the required assignments done.

As Monte said, things are just to rigid! We need to bring the fun back into learning and make this less of a military boot camp type template.


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lcsdds
post Apr 18 2010, 04:32 AM
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QUOTE (zen @ Apr 18 2010, 02:05 AM) *
Quick Question:

In the old mtp system, were the advance students who mentored beginners rewarded in any manner?

I read suggestions around separate fee/package for only the MTP program.... that might have some downsides: anyone (be it a beginner) who pays for it would probably want to be mentored by an instructor, not by an advanced student.

They were rewarded by being mentored by an instructor......in my case it was Muris.......\m/\m/
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jafomatic
post Apr 18 2010, 04:50 AM
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I'd agree with a lot of the concerns about rigidity but I think we're also quoting our personal opinions on the matter and that they all differ. What this says to me is that it should be left to the discretion of the instructor. We trust them to teach, so let's trust them to understand how much of a strict schedule a student will want / need / respond to.

I think we could find some other ways to promote and encourage users to participate in the REC program. Even a simple (and more public) ladder and scoreboard would make that program more tempting. The existing scoreboard is fine but it's not on the front page, y'know? There could also be a few categories. Greatest improvements, most passed submissions, highest current score, etc. A few top-10 lists even.

One thing I learned from world of warcraft is that if you give young people a ladder, there will always be a fairly high percentage of guys just itching to see if they can climb it. Fix REC by fixing rec. Fix MTP by fixing MTP. This particular marriage of the two isn't healthy as it is described right now.



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zen
post Apr 18 2010, 05:00 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 18 2010, 01:50 PM) *
I'd agree with a lot of the concerns about rigidity but I think we're also quoting our personal opinions on the matter and that they all differ. What this says to me is that it should be left to the discretion of the instructor. We trust them to teach, so let's trust them to understand how much of a strict schedule a student will want / need / respond to.


Yea, this sounds great. Im not against the deadlines as much as everyone else is .. Sometimes, I do need deadlines etc as they give me a sense of direction and a goal to work for... so I don't waste my time noodling random things, not progressing much. Plus everyone has different schedules, students may have a different allocated guitar playing hours as compared to a working individual who can probably only shell out an hour in a day. Doesn't mean that person has to miss out on having a mentor.

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 18 2010, 01:50 PM) *
I think we could find some other ways to promote and encourage users to participate in the REC program. Even a simple (and more public) ladder and scoreboard would make that program more tempting. The existing scoreboard is fine but it's not on the front page, y'know? There could also be a few categories. Greatest improvements, most passed submissions, highest current score, etc. A few top-10 lists even.


What an amazing idea !! "this month's top 10 students list" will be cool as it might not have the same people every month.

This post has been edited by zen: Apr 18 2010, 05:03 AM


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maharzan
post Apr 18 2010, 05:21 AM
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RE: zen, I think the student MTP should be free, thats where the low fee for MTP with instructor might be justified. You are also contributing to GMC.


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NoSkill
post Apr 18 2010, 05:25 AM
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Well, I think that the first thing that needs to be hammered out, is a way to choose instructors and students who both have the time to actually participate for three months. All the great suggestions aside, instructors don't want to be chasing students for their assignments, and students don't want to hear crickets in the instructors MTP board. All of the other details may be some things that would expand on the program as it evolves, but it will never evolve if there isn't consistent commitment from instructor and student alike.

I hoped that the MTP program would be a springboard to further learning. In a way, it has. I have been able to learn things that I didn't know before. The problem is one of momentum. What do I do with this knowledge now? How do I incorporate this stuff into my playing? Circumstances that were beyond my and my instructors control, didn't allow us to ever create momentum that took things from the theoretical to the practical. For that, I had to go outside of the MTP program, and outside of GMC. Essentially, to have things explained and connected, that I had learned in my MTP. Not ideal, but no blame layed. It just comes down to my first point. There really should be a selection process that involves making a commitment. I think that a fee is the only way to get it from the students. For motivating instructors? I have no idea.

If you sign up for one, and don't make your assignments, you don't get another one unless you pay a fee. If you take students and then are unable to complete the program? I guess we get to start threads of complaint where these issues are tossed back and forth between parties that have no say in the matter and are "closely," monitored by people that do.

I remain optimistic that this might turn into something great.

Cheers!


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maharzan
post Apr 18 2010, 05:39 AM
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Agreed NoSkill.. My primary concern is the same. I don't want to be choosing 'good' instructors every 3 months (if that happens) and then only to be abandoned in the mid of the session.. so you are basically trying the same little knowledge from every instructor and not completely knowing how and where to apply the things you have learnt. At first, I was so optimistic that I could continue my MTP with just 1 instructor for a year which I thought would have been sufficient to know all the scales / modes and all the techinques and how where to apply them.

I have been trying my best to apply what I have learnt (in collabs) and have been quite successful as well but it would have been more easier to grasp if this was coming from the instructor end as well. People might argue, its all upto you but seriously, its the coach who trains his student to become the great student. You can see that in every field. smile.gif


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Staffy
post Apr 18 2010, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (jafomatic @ Apr 18 2010, 05:50 AM) *
I think we could find some other ways to promote and encourage users to participate in the REC program. Even a simple (and more public) ladder and scoreboard would make that program more tempting. The existing scoreboard is fine but it's not on the front page, y'know? There could also be a few categories. Greatest improvements, most passed submissions, highest current score, etc. A few top-10 lists even.


I think this is a great idea too. But the REC-program is also too rigid imo. Whats the point in learning someone others solo note-by-note? For players that have been around for some time, this might be a self-explaining issue (since if You got some routine, You can analyze a solo properly and play it accurate, otherwise not), but I think most of us wants to just study some ideas and then have a go on the backing track and jam along. Why can't that be graded? We are improvisers - not machines. (drawing a parallell too the wiz-kid Youtube discussion here)
The most important thing for a guitar-player is style, not technique, so I'm definitely up for making the REC-system more dynamic. Why dont people post their playing (with whatever background) and grade them according to the 10-degree scale??? Simple, isn't it?

//Staffay


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Staffy
post Apr 18 2010, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (NoSkill @ Apr 18 2010, 06:25 AM) *
All of the other details may be some things that would expand on the program as it evolves, but it will never evolve if there isn't consistent commitment from instructor and student alike.

I think that a fee is the only way to get it from the students. For motivating instructors? I have no idea.


Cheers!


Right. +1 on this. Motivating the instructors should'nt be that hard though, since they already got paid for doin lessons. It's just to write in their "contracts" that they will have X numbers of students along with the lessons - otherwise there will be no payment. It will ofc. take some resources to supervise this, but however I think it will be fairly easy. The teachers that receives complains for not making any commitment to their students, are not teachers in my eye's anyway, and they can be left out on a site as this, where we strive for a good level of learning & teaching.

Without naming any names its fairly easy to point out who's "real" teachers and who's not. We have a vast amount of lessons, but also a vast amout that doesn't encourage the student at all. The problem here is that most of the lessons are "constructed" solo's and makes no sense in reality at all. I could probably write a level 11 lesson myself (I will not be able to play it though... tongue.gif ), and here is really where You can differ the teachers from each other. A major problem seems to be the fact that a lot of the lessons doesn't explain WHY it sounds good. Its just a couple of licks thrown in on a background with any further explanation. Something that would have been a lot more interesting is to hear the instructors really improvise over a background and then make a transcription. (like our competitor does with Mr.Govan fronting the site)

Anyway, I still think the MTP is a good thing, and what makes this site unique. With some small adjustments according to this discussion it will be even better and a main attraction to the site!

//Staffay


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maharzan
post Apr 18 2010, 09:45 AM
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TO add to that, Staffay, I think the Collaborations are a good way to go (as a start).. so Just post a video of you while playing the collaboration licks then post it in the REC.. which of course can be graded by instructors or even students if that helps.


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Staffy
post Apr 18 2010, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (maharzan @ Apr 18 2010, 10:45 AM) *
TO add to that, Staffay, I think the Collaborations are a good way to go (as a start).. so Just post a video of you while playing the collaboration licks then post it in the REC.. which of course can be graded by instructors or even students if that helps.


+1 Good idea!


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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 18 2010, 10:36 AM
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I also agree that the old MTP system worked better. In the "new" one, I ended my MTP in the middle of the cycle, because both of my instructors had some time issues. Both of those short cycles gave something to me, so it is not that I earned nothing from them, yet it is far far from being ideal.

Before that I was in the Instructor-Intermediate-beginner MTP, mentored by Lcsdds, and it helped me the most. We had many interesting topics running on our board, and what was most important for my playing was that Monte encouraged me to try some collabs/compositions. Before that I was sure that I am unable to create anything, and thanks to those words of encouragement I started to participate in those activities, which gave me much inspiration and motivation and in result lead to much progress (at least in my own eyes wink.gif ).

To sum up the MTP thing of mine - thanks Monte! smile.gif


And as a side note --> while MTP can be a main attraction of GMC if it is changed back to the Instructor-intermediate-beginner system, it wont be possible in the new system. The amount of time to really mentor a student is high, the amount of instructors ready to do it not so high, so we really can't advertise GMC with a thing that would be closed after first 200 new members at best.


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zen
post Apr 18 2010, 10:38 AM
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We obviously all care about this program and are VERY passionate about the site's success

Still not sure why none of the instructors have posted in this thread yet ..with their suggestions/ opinions.. mellow.gif unsure.gif unsure.gif

This post has been edited by zen: Apr 18 2010, 11:41 AM


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Staffy
post Apr 18 2010, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (zen @ Apr 18 2010, 11:38 AM) *
We obviously all care about this program and are VERY passionate about the site's success

Still not sure why no instructor has posted in this thread yet with their suggestions/ opinions.. mellow.gif unsure.gif unsure.gif


I think its because this is a CIA-issue - secret players never comments on their lessons.... laugh.gif

//Staffay


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stratman79
post Apr 18 2010, 12:46 PM
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This is a really interesting thread, I'm on my first MTP program now and I'm enjoying the fact I'm set assignments as it 'makes' me practise something I othwise wouldn't do. I have learnt some cool stuff in the first month and really look forward continuing with it. That been said I've done 1 Rec and this month have 2 simelar assignments and a REC, what I do find is that as I have only a few days (partly because I was away on holiday) to work on a piece that I just end up learning the notes, I should really take the time to learn it in different positions and different keys (the same with all lessons learn what you are playing over otherwise its pointless).

I liked Staffy's idea that if you complete 3 MTPs you get a reduced rate. I also agree that another good idea be to lower the price and get people to pay a seperate MTP fee, that IMO would motivate the teachers more, I think they should get paid for the MTP and it shouldn't be written in to there contract as some teachers will be under more demand. maybe if the pupils paid the teacher directly??

Regarding the REC I don't think people like to post up there playing as they don't want to fail. with a 7.5 pass average you have to get mostly 8's. I think from what I read they want to make a GMC qualification which is why you have to learn the lesson exactly, I liked Staffys idea of playing over a backing track but how would they rate the difficulty as well as how accurate you are? on the other hand I learnt one of Ivans blues lessons but changed the last 3 bars and a few bits of phrasing but I couldn't post it up as a REC even though I learnt the lesson... finally I think the last problem is that people don't want to post up pieces that are too easy as will bring there 'rating' down.
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