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> Mtp Issues!, Let's have a discussion about it
Staffy
post Apr 26 2010, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 26 2010, 04:07 PM) *
Thanks again for the opinions here.

A returning question is "why did the mtp rules change"? The simple answer is to prevent GMC from going bankruptcy.

We have misjudged who will want to do mtp, how long they will want to do it, along with a whole bunch of other things on the back end side. I am not that sad about it, because I know that the best (and only, sometimes) way to learn is to try.


Now I don't understand this at all??? With the new 3 months MTP / 3 months not, people are dropping their membership. How can this rule be succesful in an economical perspective??? If this is the issue here, MTP should be organized in a way so that every member can participate 12 months a year. The same goes for the rules of REC etc. - why do You have to pass each month to continue? If everyone continues and stays as members, there will be most money in the pocket. Or am I wrong here?

I do understand that all this this is pretty much "watch and learn", but I can't see any problem in that every instructor will have 4 students for instance, and then I think everone who wants to participate can. (however, I dont know if the teachers gets paid per student for the MTP, but as I see it, in order to be a teacher here - You SHALL do MTP's)

Thats just my 2 cents for the moment. Ideas for alternative way's to do this has already been written by a lot of us, so I wont discuss it anymore here.

//Staffay


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zen
post Apr 26 2010, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 27 2010, 12:07 AM) *
It sounds like you have misunderstood this Jafo, the rules say that vocal mtp:ers are required to submit a REC take just like guitar mtp. The only way I see this could happen was if the student chose a lesson containing both singing and playing, I believe we have one by Ivan Mihaljevic.

Of course there wasn't any added rule one week before an assignment was due.

I understand you are frustrated but stating things you have heard as facts doesn't really add to the discussion. Sure there have been lots of misunderstandings back and forth but that's hard to avoid when humans interact.


Hey Kris, thanks for posting and making this a 2 way communication. Much appreciated.

As mentioned above, that student was me. I can reasonably comprehend what is taught and communicated to me, and I try to leave no room for misunderstandings. Vocal mtp was merely quoted as an example here (but what was quoted was a fact) but let me clarify that the REC to be a take involving both vocals & guitars was introduced in the 3rd month of MTP (Read here). Sure the rule of REC was always in place but noone knew WHAT would make a REC for vocal mtp (since all vocal lessons are purely improvisations). There was a brief confusion of doing covers as REC which was quickly cleared due to backing track copyright issues etc. SO even if we were to believe for a second that the lesson by Ivan Mihaljevic (where he plays and sings) was the perfect one for REC, what happens after that? There are no more lessons like that. Vocal instructors do not play guitar while singing. The instructor was doing a great job in the first 2 months. I even submitted 8 assignments within those months (no other student did that in the batch). But after this rule, even the instructor seemed a bit tensed, confused and I was clearly upset and this caused it all to break down. FYI There was NO mis-communication between the instructor and myself. We were doing very well..... It was just not planned properly, but it was the first time (with vocal mtp) so we can hop on that for a while. Ah well, lets look at the brighter side, at least my instructors didn't disappear on me 3 times without any announcement. And my guitar mtp was a great great success.

As Andy mentioned above, learning and frustration do not go well and I'm beginning to feel it now. I come here for education and fun and not to get frustrated. I know this has to be taken care of by myself only and no mtp or golden/magical lesson can help me but I was just trying to clarify the facts, so future mtp'ers don't go through the same experiences and this program can be strengthened.

But once again I'm glad that you have decided to take an active part in this discussion. At least now we have some sort of assurance that the time spent here caring about this program and this site is not going to go to waste.

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Pedja Simovic
post Apr 27 2010, 01:17 AM
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Hi guys!

I have read his great thread and all your responses. Some very strong ideas and opinions that I support.
Let me just say that from my angle, MTP was better when there were no rules involved. I take Ben's case, when we were communicating back an forth all the time and he had more than 4 assignments for that month ( I think more like 8 assignments). This worked because I could adjust to what Ben needed, his original pace was different then what other students would do and he was never shy to ask extra questions. This is why everything worked, he got what he asked for, knowledge in theory and harmony, arranging and reharmonizing techniques.
With new rules I wasn't too pleased because a lot of students who were active and did GREAT WORK had to stop studying with me. I have to be honest (as I am always) and tell you that this hit me pretty hard. I didn't see (and still don't see) the point of mentoring somebody for 3 months then letting him/her go to wait for another 3 months. If I was mentored like this by my instructors I could never see myself being motivated to practice and play 10+ hours every day. Some of you mentioned momentum in here, I agree with your statement, momentum was lost for me when that happened. I continued to mentor new students but I can't describe you a bad feeling when students don't do their work or when they drop out for some (or none) reason. This hurts me since I like to take personal approach with every student who wants to work for me. Lets face it, financially speaking, MTP is not paying my bills nor it did payed when old rules were in play, but still I found (and find) motivation for it to dedicate myself fully. When I see rules changing, people dropping out, members leaving site, it strikes me hard and I change my approach slightly. Now you can see that because of new rules I have 2 students (Staffay and Kieran) trough no fault of my own. I try to do my best with those two guys but I don't see how MTP program will work if all these rules stay in play. Something has to change!
My opinion is very simple
People who are interested in MTP and really want to work with specific instructor should pay separate fee just for MTP. They should be also given option (just brainstorming here) not to pay regular membership but to rather just pay MTP. There should be only time limit for that price (for example month of tutoring) and the assignments as well as workload should be handled individually from student to student. In other words, 100% personal approach with stress free and laid back work. If student requires specific program with weekly assignments, instructor should provide him/her that but if he/she can process information and work in different way, he/she should have ability to use that.
This is the only way I see things working. People who really are dedicated and want to study with somebody pay the price. If they quit, no money return because they decide to do so. With current way MTP works, MTP is included in regular membership so member can decide to quit whenever he/she wants. I see extra financial boost as big commitment for potential serious students wanting to participate. I also think that there should not be any restrictions regarding how long or short somebody wants to study with particular instructor. If instructor is very busy and doesn't have any spots, student can choose to be on waiting list or decide to switch to his/her's second choice instructor.
This is the way I see things working and everybody benefiting. GMC getting their cut from extra membership, instructors getting extra pay for MTP in particular and students being hard working and motivated for their commitment and moneys worth.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I would really like to hear what everybody thinks about all this.

Thank you for reading,

Pedja


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lcsdds
post Apr 27 2010, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Apr 27 2010, 01:17 AM) *
Hi guys!

I have read his great thread and all your responses. Some very strong ideas and opinions that I support.
Let me just say that from my angle, MTP was better when there were no rules involved. I take Ben's case, when we were communicating back an forth all the time and he had more than 4 assignments for that month ( I think more like 8 assignments). This worked because I could adjust to what Ben needed, his original pace was different then what other students would do and he was never shy to ask extra questions. This is why everything worked, he got what he asked for, knowledge in theory and harmony, arranging and reharmonizing techniques.
With new rules I wasn't too pleased because a lot of students who were active and did GREAT WORK had to stop studying with me. I have to be honest (as I am always) and tell you that this hit me pretty hard. I didn't see (and still don't see) the point of mentoring somebody for 3 months then letting him/her go to wait for another 3 months. If I was mentored like this by my instructors I could never see myself being motivated to practice and play 10+ hours every day. Some of you mentioned momentum in here, I agree with your statement, momentum was lost for me when that happened. I continued to mentor new students but I can't describe you a bad feeling when students don't do their work or when they drop out for some (or none) reason. This hurts me since I like to take personal approach with every student who wants to work for me. Lets face it, financially speaking, MTP is not paying my bills nor it did payed when old rules were in play, but still I found (and find) motivation for it to dedicate myself fully. When I see rules changing, people dropping out, members leaving site, it strikes me hard and I change my approach slightly. Now you can see that because of new rules I have 2 students (Staffay and Kieran) trough no fault of my own. I try to do my best with those two guys but I don't see how MTP program will work if all these rules stay in play. Something has to change!
My opinion is very simple
People who are interested in MTP and really want to work with specific instructor should pay separate fee just for MTP. They should be also given option (just brainstorming here) not to pay regular membership but to rather just pay MTP. There should be only time limit for that price (for example month of tutoring) and the assignments as well as workload should be handled individually from student to student. In other words, 100% personal approach with stress free and laid back work. If student requires specific program with weekly assignments, instructor should provide him/her that but if he/she can process information and work in different way, he/she should have ability to use that.
This is the only way I see things working. People who really are dedicated and want to study with somebody pay the price. If they quit, no money return because they decide to do so. With current way MTP works, MTP is included in regular membership so member can decide to quit whenever he/she wants. I see extra financial boost as big commitment for potential serious students wanting to participate. I also think that there should not be any restrictions regarding how long or short somebody wants to study with particular instructor. If instructor is very busy and doesn't have any spots, student can choose to be on waiting list or decide to switch to his/her's second choice instructor.
This is the way I see things working and everybody benefiting. GMC getting their cut from extra membership, instructors getting extra pay for MTP in particular and students being hard working and motivated for their commitment and moneys worth.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I would really like to hear what everybody thinks about all this.

Thank you for reading,

Pedja

I agree 100% with you Pedja. You and I spoke about me being in your MTP but with my limited time to playing guitar we just decided that with the rules of the MTP it wouldn't work......meaning I would have to spend too much time working on stuff I didn't want to work on just to satisfy the rules of MTP. I think a separate fee for MTP would be a great way to solve this problem. Great post Pedja.....\m/\m/
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Apr 27 2010, 02:39 AM
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I am monitoring the discussion carefully, and I think all sides have strong points in something, however there are weaknesses in all sides as well. I would like to point out something very obvious, and don't want to jump into any conclusions yet, I was hoping for everybody to think hard before posting anything, specially anything that concerns how GMC is doing business:

Here are the topics for discussion, be honest everybody:

- If MTP is additionally charged, and members can sign in and stay as long as they want, then new members won't have the chance of getting signed up (since slots will be taken constantly?

what do you think?



- If MTP is lasting 3 months, more members can check out MTP, and instructor can test more people, but members (and probably instructors) loose interest in MTP after completion of MTP round.


what do you think?


- If MTP is NOT additionally charged, members don't have enough motivation to stick to rules of MTP. Since the membership covers the MTP expenses, they can drop out, not complete the tasks and do it "for free". If MTP was charged, almost everybody would rush to complete and take things a lot more seriously (Instructors too).

what do you think?


- If members who join MTP are not being able to follow the rules of MTP because of illness, travelling, or other obligations that are not affected by their decision making, how should their MTP programs be handled? Prolonging deadlines seems the only way to go, but for how long?

what do you think?


- Will MTP develop faster and better if members are additionally charged for it? I believe so.

what do you think?


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maharzan
post Apr 27 2010, 03:41 AM
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I also agree with Pedja completely here.

A separate fee has been a point of discussion and I am sure people will want to subscribe MTP rather than having to pay a grand fee for regular membership (for which you are left on your own to learn from the videos). Forum has been always free. It will be motivation to all instructors / students as well. GMC will definitely benefit from this as well.

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Apr 27 2010, 02:39 AM) *
- If MTP is additionally charged, and members can sign in and stay as long as they want, then new members won't have the chance of getting signed up (since slots will be taken constantly?


If MTP is charged separately for each month (MTP only lasting for about a month), this can be solved. Its whether you want the current member to be paying or new member paying, if the current rules are in take, the old member will definitely not want to pay.. which makes it even. But, not all members continue their MTP. Till now, I think 2 members from each instructor might have completed all.. correct me if I am wrong. So, new members will definitely have a chance. Plus, if instructors can get paid for each MTP, I am sure more instructors will be motivated to take part as well. If we go the old route, advanced students can also mentor beginners (for which there should be a MTP fee discount). Now this looks complicated. smile.gif MTP can start anytime (rather than fixed month) So, if anyone drops out, a new member from waiting list can definitely take part. He shouldn't be charged until he starts MTP though.





QUOTE
- If MTP is lasting 3 months, more members can check out MTP, and instructor can test more people, but members (and probably instructors) loose interest in MTP after completion of MTP round.



3 months is a short time for taking MTP, but if you are waiting, thats a really long time. You lose motivation easily. After 2 incomplete MTPs and waiting for a long time, I don't feel like taking MTP again. I am sure some people who started with other instructors have forgotten what they learnt and when they start again, they will have to refresh everything.. waste of a week or two. It should be running all year long so anyone can join anytime if instructor is free and old students drop out. That way more students can take part.



QUOTE
- If MTP is NOT additionally charged, members don't have enough motivation to stick to rules of MTP. Since the membership covers the MTP expenses, they can drop out, not complete the tasks and do it "for free". If MTP was charged, almost everybody would rush to complete and take things a lot more seriously (Instructors too).



Thats great imo. Since we have run FAILED MTPs in the past, is this something GMC can be proud of at this point? If we have success stories, I think GMC can market really well and it will be like one great University (Harvard ?) and people have to WAIT and qualify to take this class. I don't think having good students hamper anything rather than trying to gather all the members who are interested and not having one success story to tell.



QUOTE
- If members who join MTP are not being able to follow the rules of MTP because of illness, travelling, or other obligations that are not affected by their decision making, how should their MTP programs be handled? Prolonging deadlines seems the only way to go, but for how long?


This should be like in any college I think.. They can defer their programme by 1 month at the latest and even then they cannot start, they will miss it, no refunds. If you go to college and you don't complete exams, you fail. no refunds. its simple as that. This will get negative feedback so having one option of deferring might help.



QUOTE
- Will MTP develop faster and better if members are additionally charged for it? I believe so.


I think so too. At least from my prospective, I could have learnt a lot from the last 9 months than just learning on my own. These days I feel there is very less activity in GMC forums even from instructors. We ask for backing track and it takes ages to respond. We post RECs, it takes another ages. At least if we pay for separate MTP, there is guarantee that I can do what I want to do and not having to wait for long (even though I am paying, I am not getting what I have to). GMC is just pitching they are like 'free extra' services.

Regular Membership is TOO high for what we are getting with new fee. The competitive sites offer far less and if we are only to get video lessons, I am not going to be a member again. I can find tabs / lessons for free anywhere in the internet, so why am I spending money to learn one lesson a month on my own.. ? Thats being total honest.

Thanks,
maharzan

This post has been edited by maharzan: Apr 27 2010, 03:48 AM


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NoSkill
post Apr 27 2010, 04:13 AM
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I actually have trouble continuing on this line of discussion without getting a little bitter. The concept of a, "mentor," is probably the element that bothers me the most. The program, in all of these suggestions and concepts, should be called, TTP. Temporary Tutorship Program.

The use of the word mentor, in the name of this program, suggests the formation of the mentor-protege relationship. Something that this program, in it's current rule set strictly prevents. It's the very basis of momentum-killing.

I appreciate the opportunity to work with such great players, and have the opportunity to have access to such a knowledge base and skill set as makes up the core of the GMC Instructors. But let's not put lipstick on a pig, and call it something it's not. Maybe then, we can come up with elements that would make a great program.

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maharzan
post Apr 27 2010, 05:13 AM
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haha NoSkill. I see the frustration in there. smile.gif If you ever feel like giving up guitar again, I am up for your axefx. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif JK

Anyway, hopefully these discussions lead somewhere before the start of next MTP. I am feeling frustrated as well but I don't want the motivation I have to die with it because of the failure of execution of (could have been) greater program. I will leave it to THE GUYS now.

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Staffy
post Apr 27 2010, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Apr 27 2010, 02:17 AM) *
People who are interested in MTP and really want to work with specific instructor should pay separate fee just for MTP. They should be also given option (just brainstorming here) not to pay regular membership but to rather just pay MTP. There should be only time limit for that price (for example month of tutoring) and the assignments as well as workload should be handled individually from student to student. In other words, 100% personal approach with stress free and laid back work. If student requires specific program with weekly assignments, instructor should provide him/her that but if he/she can process information and work in different way, he/she should have ability to use that.


+1 I can't do anything else than agree 100% here. Its really what I've tried to say the past time here, even that I do think that some "pressure" by doin Vids playing must be used on the students by recording themselves - and then the site also gets some great promotion stuff to get more people involved in the MTP.

//Staffay


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Staffy
post Apr 27 2010, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Apr 27 2010, 03:39 AM) *
- If MTP is additionally charged, and members can sign in and stay as long as they want, then new members won't have the chance of getting signed up (since slots will be taken constantly?


It depends on how the MTP is organized. I can't really see now problems in having everyone to participate, based on that ALL teachers will have at least a couple of students. Then we mus not confuse MTP with regular lessons. (see below)

QUOTE
- If MTP is lasting 3 months, more members can check out MTP, and instructor can test more people, but members (and probably instructors) loose interest in MTP after completion of MTP round.


That will be no problem if everyone can participate. However, I think a time-limit of a year is far more realistic with the same teacher. I do think that only serious students shall be able to stay in the program (eg. the one's who fulfills their assignments) and hence, the drop-offs will make spots for new students.

QUOTE
- If MTP is NOT additionally charged, members don't have enough motivation to stick to rules of MTP. Since the membership covers the MTP expenses, they can drop out, not complete the tasks and do it "for free". If MTP was charged, almost everybody would rush to complete and take things a lot more seriously (Instructors too).


Thats definitely true. As far as I can see, a lot of time have been spent on students that don't complete the program, and as far as I see, money will be the only motivation student-wise for completing the program. Eg. if You pay for the MTP - You will most likely fulfill Your obligations. That will left the "un-serious" out. As I said before, I will suggest a lower membership fee and an additional MTP-fee.

QUOTE
- If members who join MTP are not being able to follow the rules of MTP because of illness, travelling, or other obligations that are not affected by their decision making, how should their MTP programs be handled? Prolonging deadlines seems the only way to go, but for how long?


I will say a month or maybe two, but thats depending on the case. But however, if a member have to drop the MTP because of outer circumstances, I think he shall be regarded as first in the line when a new spot is free.

QUOTE
- Will MTP develop faster and better if members are additionally charged for it? I believe so.


Both Yes and No. It depends on what the purpose with the MTP is. (see also below) What I mean here is what really matters: Is the MTP going to produce a few FAR improved players or it is gonna produce MANY players improves just a little??? Or is the purpose to generate traffic an hence money to finance other activities??? Or pay the teachers fee's? tongue.gif What a succesful MTP is, depends on the point of view, so I cannot really say anything here.

MTP or Lessons
As the title says here, I wanna discuss the purpose of the MTP. As I can see in many posts here, the majority looks at the MTP as some sort of private lessons, which might be good, but this is not "Mentorship" to me. The Instructors (or mentors) role here, shall rather be to point the student in the right direction, suggest lessons that already exists and have a conversation of the students playing. This is not a very hard task to accomplish in my point of view, and I will gladly take some beginners/intermediate players in both playing/theory myself. However, I think the program shall be easy for the teachers to manage, and the actual work shall be done by the students. There is no meaning of inventing the wheel again, since all who have played for some years knows what it takes to be a good player. Its rather to be a source of inspiration and support the student in the issues he/she faces. There's a lot of good material on the site that can be used in the MTP-program.

If we are talking about private lessons, these can be made under some other name, and shall ofc. be charged. The point here is really to NOT confuse MTP with the lessons on the site or any private teaching. What do You think bout that guy's???

//Staffay



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ruben_mcn
post Apr 27 2010, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ Apr 27 2010, 08:59 AM) *
MTP or Lessons
As the title says here, I wanna discuss the purpose of the MTP. As I can see in many posts here, the majority looks at the MTP as some sort of private lessons, which might be good, but this is not "Mentorship" to me. The Instructors (or mentors) role here, shall rather be to point the student in the right direction, suggest lessons that already exists and have a conversation of the students playing. This is not a very hard task to accomplish in my point of view, and I will gladly take some beginners/intermediate players in both playing/theory myself. However, I think the program shall be easy for the teachers to manage, and the actual work shall be done by the students. There is no meaning of inventing the wheel again, since all who have played for some years knows what it takes to be a good player. Its rather to be a source of inspiration and support the student in the issues he/she faces. There's a lot of good material on the site that can be used in the MTP-program.

If we are talking about private lessons, these can be made under some other name, and shall ofc. be charged. The point here is really to NOT confuse MTP with the lessons on the site or any private teaching. What do You think bout that guy's???

//Staffay


I totaly agree .. I never know what lesson to practise if the instructors could help us make kinda like a lesson plan for us to improve on somthing it would really help..
I think there sould not be an adictional fee to MTP unsure.gif ..( Cause I´m still in Studing and i have no incoming so it´s hard for me to pay it already sad.gif cause i have to get somebody to pay it for me (and this is not an easy thing to do .. and if the prices go even higher it will become even more difficult, and I bealive that many of the gmc students are in the same/similar situation has I´m .. )

I just don´t agree w/ the three month waiting period ... :S Cause i don´t know what to do on my own .. all i work here at GMC is in MTP program .. And this break it really kills my Motivation sad.gif and my learning rate..
(for instance this past months w/out Bieng in the MTP I have barely done anything )

This post has been edited by ruben_mcn: Apr 27 2010, 09:46 AM


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Gitarrero
post Apr 27 2010, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (ruben_mcn @ Apr 27 2010, 10:44 AM) *
I totaly agree .. I never know what lesson to practise if the instructors could help us make kinda like a lesson plan for us to improve on somthing it would really help..


I also think an automatic lesson planner would be a wise idea to get started or get better. But I already presented this idea in the "improvement" thread. This could work as an addition to the MTP, if the three month waiting period remains.
I also agree with Staffy that the MTP should be like a guiding system, so the instructor should tell the student which lessons to work on. My current MTP with Lian is based on this, and it works great for me.
I understand that some students are upset when they get dropped or the MTP is not moving forward fast enough, but still, it's free and these things can happen. I'm happy with the way things are right now!


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stratman79
post Apr 27 2010, 11:16 PM
Post #93


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I agree with Pedja's earlier point regarding the separate fee (and maybe only paying for MTP and not the main site. I would prob do that).

I don't see a problem with there been too many pupils/waiting lists, a lot would come down to the instructor if they where getting paid per pupil then they would be able to take on as many as their workload allowed.

Also I don't see the stress about deadlines, If the pupil and instructor have an understanding and both are happy an comfortable at the rate of work then that should be fine as long as there is regular communication. e.g if I want to do 1 assignment per month and Staffy wants to do 8 as long Pedja was happy with it and we both where I can't see a problem.

Its interesting but I do sense a lot of bad feeling in this thread and really think that for the good to the site it should be addressed.
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