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> Mathematical Issues - And A Solution To My Ever Ending Problem
Staffy
post Apr 28 2010, 08:41 AM
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The story goes like this - I've been frustrated for a long time, since neither of my computers or soundcards records what I'm playing properly because of some small latency. Most noticeable in swing/jazz/shuffle type of music. Regarding to all experts a latency of 3 ms. shall not be noticeable, which is definitely false since my playing sounds OK when I record it with the built-in mic on a video cam, but stinks in the DAW at the same take. Maybe I'm stupid here, but are You other guy's compensate for latency in the DAW when recording????

Anyhow, I found a nifty little function in Cubase that let You compensate the latency in the driver by setting the samples to be recorded with a negative value. And voila' - now it sounds like I played it. The only problem I have now is how to calculate the numbers of samples to be adjusted according to the sample rate. Is there a mathematic formula for this??? Eg. if I'm recording at 44,1 kHz and have a reported latency from the soundcard of 3.4 ms, how many samples shall be moved???

//Staffay


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MickeM
post Apr 28 2010, 10:23 AM
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Good think you didn't post the mathematical forumla on a drummmers och bass players forum or you'd be likely to never get a correct reply wink.gif
just kidding! smile.gif

Like my wife does, I will only reply to the first question put in a mail or SMS and ignore the rest. No, I don't compensate. My ears can't pickup the 3ms latency in the recording.If you hear it I understand it's a must for you to be happy with your work.
But can't you just play 3 ms before the music to manually compensate? laugh.gif


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Staffy
post Apr 28 2010, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Apr 28 2010, 11:23 AM) *
But can't you just play 3 ms before the music to manually compensate? laugh.gif


Oh, I've tried that too, ofc. it's possible - but then You have to stress the timing, and then its gonna be wrong when You play for "real" instead... tongue.gif This phenomena has drived me nuts the last year or so, it's most remarkable when playing to swing music with the cymbal playing in a triplet feel. In straight rock tunes, it doesn't seems to matter at all though........

//Staffay


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 28 2010, 11:08 AM
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The formula is as follows Staffy:

where x is the number of samples and s is the delay in milli seconds

(x/44100) . 1000 = s

so in your case x=( 3.5 x 44100) /1000 = 154

If you don't want the hassle of having to work it out each time there are a few freeware calculators around that do this automatically - ie they will get the latency direct from the host and report it back to you as samples etc.



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Apr 30 2010, 02:27 AM
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Why don't you just use the latency compensation delay function? I hope this is what you need, not sure, check out the inspector view, there is a slider next to volume and pan ones to the left.


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stratman79
post Apr 30 2010, 10:50 AM
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not really helpful solving the issue, but I say get out the reel to reel, sounds better anyway...
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Staffy
post Apr 30 2010, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Apr 30 2010, 03:27 AM) *
Why don't you just use the latency compensation delay function? I hope this is what you need, not sure, check out the inspector view, there is a slider next to volume and pan ones to the left.


Yeah, like I said - I AM stupid..... that was far more simple. Thx. Ivan! And thx. Tony!

//Staffay

QUOTE (stratman79 @ Apr 30 2010, 11:50 AM) *
not really helpful solving the issue, but I say get out the reel to reel, sounds better anyway...


Yeps, I have that experience too....

//Staffay


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Saoirse O'Shea
post May 1 2010, 02:10 PM
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NP Staffay smile.gif .


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Ivan Milenkovic
post May 10 2010, 03:26 AM
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You're welcome. I don't use it today, but back when I worked with the card that had ~150ms of latency, the option was a real time-saver (literally) smile.gif


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emirb
post Jun 2 2010, 10:17 AM
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I don't believe that 3ms of latency is what you experience as your problem. Even if the sound card says 3ms, the real latency is actually sum of the all processing from input to final output. I haven't done any real measurements but logic says to me that audible difference has to be at least in the 75-150ms range to actually hear the latency and thus be annoyed by it smile.gif This is my experience: my sound card has (as lowest) latency of <2ms which is good in the price range. But this changes fast as I add tracks in cubase and specially if I add eq and/or effects. When I record new tracks I always (learned the hard way hehe) turn off everything besides whats really necessary. Then I get the latency which I don't hear anymore. But with heavily processed tracks (not to mention guitar rig! if you use it) you simply cannot count in measurements of 2-3ms. No programmer is THAT good smile.gif if it's software then you have issues with hdd's, memory, busses, cpu's etc.
With this said, I tried to compensate with this negative sample stuff but I quickly realized (and sort of proved that problem isn't of constant immutable nature) that this 'latency' is changed every time I run cubase! Sometimes I put my comp in hibernate state in order to continue working on something as fast as possible and then this is most noticeable. In other words, if I would calculate numbers of samples I need to wait in order to compensate, this will work sometimes (according to current sound card latency) but mostly it won't.
Hope this helps, if not then I can at least say that I can relate to your frustration! smile.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ May 10 2010, 04:26 AM) *
You're welcome. I don't use it today, but back when I worked with the card that had ~150ms of latency, the option was a real time-saver (literally) smile.gif

I agree, remember those times:) soundblaster cards (believe it was awe32 I had back then) had a lot of latency. If you know that ~150ms is as best as it gets you have to compensate. Or manually do the sync (pain in the a**!!).


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jun 5 2010, 03:17 PM
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Emir has a point. 3ms latency it probably not a real figure. Every plugin in the chain increases latency, as every plugin adds up to the time the signal needs to be processed. Bulky plugins, such as software modelers or mastering compressors/limiters can add up quite a bit.


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