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> Multiple Takes..is This Cheating?
Gary
post May 1 2010, 05:29 AM
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I have been working on a particular GMC lesson for more time than I care to admit to laugh.gif ..and I wish to record it. My issue is the lesson contains a fast run that I just continue to stumble on mad.gif . If I play the run over and over I can eventually get it.. but nailing it within the context of the song is simply beyond my current ability. I swear if I had nickle for every time I have played this series of notes I could retire.

So now I am at a crossroads, everything I have recorded to this point been done in one take. I am wondering if its more common to just continue work on something until you can nail it in one take or "punt" and utilize the functionality of the DAW software and do multiple takes of say a difficult passage and then patch the best take into the song. I am bit of a newbie at this but it appears this multiple take process is possible with Reaper.

I fully realize that nailing something in one take would be preferable..however I am near saturation with this and beginning to get frustrated. Advice appreciated.

Cheers!
Gary

This post has been edited by Gary: May 1 2010, 06:54 AM
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Staffy
post May 1 2010, 07:47 AM
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Well...... if You cant nail it three times in a row - then You just are not able to play it imo. Maybe its a little beyond Your current level? I will suggest to do a "cheat" atm. for the sake of getting a complete take, and then move on to some other lessons and go back to it in a couple of months and have another try. You will for sure nail it with some practice! smile.gif

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Kristofer Dahl
post May 1 2010, 09:00 AM
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Not 100% sure this relates to the topic but here we go:
I don't think it's cheating at all - you are just making use of modern technology, you would be a fool if you didn't. (what if we still thought that using an electric guitar/amplifier was cheating?)

When I write/record stuff I have the choice between choosing licks which I am comfortable with - and I nail them instantly (but it's ooh so boring), or try to come up with original stuff which I don't stand a chance on even getting down decently (without heaps of practicing and re-recording).

In a lot of cases I won't really be able to play my stuff after I have recorded them - so that's when the fun begins: actually trying to learn what I just recorded. I have found that not only does this result in cooler/more original recordings (to me) but it develops my technique and style in a way that I wouldn't have been inspired to do otherwise.

Now if you pay a session guitarist to record your stuff and then take credit for it...that's cheating!


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Staffy
post May 1 2010, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ May 1 2010, 10:00 AM) *
Not 100% sure this relates to the topic but here we go:
I don't think it's cheating at all - you are just making use of modern technology, you would be a fool if you didn't. (what if we still thought that using an electric guitar/amplifier was cheating?)

When I write/record stuff I have the choice between choosing licks which I am comfortable with - and I nail them instantly (but it's ooh so boring), or try to come up with original stuff which I don't stand a chance on even getting down decently (without heaps of practicing and re-recording).

In a lot of cases I won't really be able to play my stuff after I have recorded them - so that's when the fun begins: actually trying to learn what I just recorded. I have found that not only does this result in cooler/more original recordings (to me) but it develops my technique and style in a way that I wouldn't have been inspired to do otherwise.

Now if you pay a session guitarist to record your stuff and then take credit for it...that's cheating!


I agree 101% on this Kris, thats how I work as well. When it comes to be creative, it makes no sense to use a couple of old licks. And as You say, the fun begins really when You are trying to perform that "wring-that-neck" -solo live..... It really improves Your playing. New technology is really wonderful!!! smile.gif

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MickeM
post May 1 2010, 11:40 AM
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If you want to master the piece - It's cheating since you're fooling yourself
If you want to make a good recording - Fine, everyone adds whistles and bells, pitch the vocals etc.
If you want to put out a tampered recording and then enter a stage to play the same thing live - Good luck to not losing your face! wink.gif I'm with Staffy here, you should be able to play it three times with no fails. And if you fail, be able to recover.


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Bogdan Radovic
post May 1 2010, 01:16 PM
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Since the purpose of the recording is to have a complete take for viewing and enjoyment and not for grading or some kind of guitar exam - that is not cheating at all. Most famous bands record stuff in layers. Its always good to have a complete take and it does sound better, but technology allows you to isolate those hard passages and be able to eventually record them well. So why not. It would be wise to work on that lesson more after you record it and to see WHY is that particular passage hard to play for you and then work on the technique etc to make it easier and be able to play it live.


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kahall
post May 3 2010, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ May 1 2010, 01:47 AM) *
Well...... if You cant nail it three times in a row - then You just are not able to play it imo. //Staffay


I'm never gonna be a playa.


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Gary
post May 3 2010, 06:51 AM
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You make some very good arguments Kris. I am certainly not a purest and will move forward with learing with the multiple takes approach. In the end I am still the person playing the riff.. and as you suggest I can continue to work on the song via practicing over the top of my own recording. Sound advice all the way around.


Thanks!
Gary
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Staffy
post May 3 2010, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (kahall @ May 3 2010, 07:11 AM) *
I'm never gonna be a playa.


Oh well, Hendrix could probably not either play the same thing twice - structured practicing is something on its own and has nothing to do with a performance or improvising, even that its good for gaining the necessary technical skills to be able to speak with Your own voice.
I can really see the difference between today and how it was "in the old days", nowadays all focus lies in speed and technical skills rather than playing something musical and unusual. (at least I think so) I guess thats why there aren't so many players with their own voice around as it was 30 years ago. (with the exception of those who still is alive ofc.)

//Staffay


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Keilnoth
post May 3 2010, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (Staffy @ May 3 2010, 08:11 AM) *
Oh well, Hendrix could probably not either play the same thing twice - structured practicing is something on its own and has nothing to do with a performance or improvising, even that its good for gaining the necessary technical skills to be able to speak with Your own voice.
I can really see the difference between today and how it was "in the old days", nowadays all focus lies in speed and technical skills rather than playing something musical and unusual. (at least I think so) I guess thats why there aren't so many players with their own voice around as it was 30 years ago. (with the exception of those who still is alive ofc.)

//Staffay


That's what I love when playing. Being able to play something different everytime you play a song, but to produce the same ideas and feelings. Never worried about breaking a string or missing a note. smile.gif

I completely agree with you Staffy. Playing a fast lick is only a matter of time but giving a voice to your guitar with your fingers and arms is what's really hard to achieve. It's more than time and practice. It's musical knowledge, understanding of music, hearing the differences in styles and melodies and being able to take and assemble all those chunks to create something that match what you want to express.

EDIT: I felt guilty for not being interested in sweeping and 200BPM alternate picking stuff, but now I feel much better working on my bendings, vibrato and legato wink.gif

This post has been edited by Keilnoth: May 3 2010, 10:59 AM


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Keep_Rocking
post May 3 2010, 01:00 PM
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Hi Gary, Hi GMCers,

Well, interesting topic. I agreed with all of your arguments, good points of view. Anyways, I would like to give my opinion. I don't think it's a matter of cheating or not.

I guess the point is getting the lesson in just one take is the hard part of the learning process: (the time consuming) repetition. The benefit is for you! wink.gif

If you practice until you are able to get it in one take, you will be able to play the same stuff (not the lesson, but the scales, techniques, fast runs, etc) live… And this is the ultimate goal for most of us.

On the other hand, take a look on this amazing (professional) video. The original sound was recorded in a studio and the guy "pretended" to play over the music track many times until the camera man get the perfect scenes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P_FvWqpCZk

And… Is this guy cheating? I guess not! wink.gif

Don't get frustrated, every student feels the same in some lessons. Man, hope you understand my intention is motivating…

Cheers.

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Gary
post May 5 2010, 03:45 AM
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Falcão,
Thanks for the post and advice.
BTW..That vid was amazing. I had never heard of the guy before but will explore his other videos. That was a very cool song.. it seriously rocked! smile.gif

Cheers!

Gary
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Ivan Milenkovic
post May 11 2010, 11:07 AM
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If you are on the verge of playing a difficult piece you can do multiple takes - why not. If you can pull out a good take out of several, then it may be safe to presume that in some time you will be able to nail it anytime.


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NoSkill
post May 11 2010, 02:28 PM
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In my experience, if you can't play that *one fast run* that is nestled into a piece that you can play to your liking, it's typically because you have anxiety about that run as you approach it. If you can play the run as an isolated phrase, then you can play it in the context of the song. Practice that phrase, but WITH an approach phrase or a few approach notes. I'm sure you'll find, not only that you can play it fine, but also the confidence that you can play it in the context of the song. Also, it's not cheating to do multiple takes. Considering it cheating is just finding one more thing to be over critical about your own playing.

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Gary
post May 18 2010, 04:15 AM
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Great point. I actually do feel myself gaining anxiety as I approach this particular run. Before it arrives it's likely I have already convinced myself that I am going flub it. As practice I have started to play the run isoloated and then add in the preceeding notes (two or so at a time). Seems to help, but progress is slooowww laugh.gif
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Adrian Figallo
post May 18 2010, 06:01 AM
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i agree 100% with kris and staffy, but that's for recording your own stuff.
now if you want to learn a lesson, maybe you should try to get it done at one take, it is part of the learning process to really push yourself to your own limits.

i don't remember how to play the solos of my album, so when i play live i have to study them again, recording and creating should be a relaxing, creative non boundaries process, so when i hear my own recordings it is amazing to see how random i was playing that day.

anyway, it doesn't even matter if you play the same thing live smile.gif


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zen
post May 19 2010, 12:47 PM
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I'm now very confused with what has been mentioned in this thread, as it can very much lead to developing some bad habits and escape routes.

If you are doing this to be graded in GMC REC etc, then single take would be best until you nail the piece. I have left many lessons in between as I faced similar issues (some I am still working on for the last 6 months .. some techniques .. even for the last 1 year). Yes, that is very frustrating. I sometimes even leave a lesson as I get bored of the melody, which I still cant play at speed. BUT.. I am happy to pass the REC with a score of 7.5 by doing a single take than get a 9 by joining multiple pieces that are played separately.

But if this is for any other purpose, (studio recordings, recording something for entertainment, create music videos of cover songs or even to move on over that hurdle) .. then the sense of accomplishment can be achieved by patching some parts together. But that technique and and issue is gonna come and hit you sooner or later in another lesson smile.gif ... Well, a lot of things come and hit me every 5 minutes tongue.gif

Your case seems a bit different here as till now you have been recording everything in one take and only now have come to this crossroad. All your hard work till now should make you 'eligible' to 'cheat' a little. But a new player reading this thread should definitely not adapt this from day 1, in my opinion.

NoSkill gave you a solid tip there .. I should give that a try too.. And now I'll just zip it smile.gif

This post has been edited by zen: May 19 2010, 12:48 PM


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Bogdan Radovic
post May 30 2010, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ May 19 2010, 01:47 PM) *
I'm now very confused with what has been mentioned in this thread, as it can very much lead to developing some bad habits and escape routes.

If you are doing this to be graded in GMC REC etc, then single take would be best until you nail the piece. I have left many lessons in between as I faced similar issues (some I am still working on for the last 6 months .. some techniques .. even for the last 1 year). Yes, that is very frustrating. I sometimes even leave a lesson as I get bored of the melody, which I still cant play at speed. BUT.. I am happy to pass the REC with a score of 7.5 by doing a single take than get a 9 by joining multiple pieces that are played separately.

But if this is for any other purpose, (studio recordings, recording something for entertainment, create music videos of cover songs or even to move on over that hurdle) .. then the sense of accomplishment can be achieved by patching some parts together. But that technique and and issue is gonna come and hit you sooner or later in another lesson smile.gif ... Well, a lot of things come and hit me every 5 minutes tongue.gif

Your case seems a bit different here as till now you have been recording everything in one take and only now have come to this crossroad. All your hard work till now should make you 'eligible' to 'cheat' a little. But a new player reading this thread should definitely not adapt this from day 1, in my opinion.

NoSkill gave you a solid tip there .. I should give that a try too.. And now I'll just zip it smile.gif


Very good tips man!

Regarding REC and generally lessons - you should play them in one take. Instructors do it too when recording. These are lessons with carefully constructed material and length and you should be able to play it in one take.

Generally recording multiple takes is reserved for recording your own material/songs etc where you don't have the clear picture in which direction the song will go or need to make sound changes on different parts etc.

This post has been edited by Bogdan Radovic: May 30 2010, 04:37 PM


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