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lcsdds
post Jun 23 2010, 10:50 PM
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Are the days of people making big money in music over?? It seems like in today's musical enviroment with filesharing etc....that the days of musicians making a lot of money with their music is over. Is it even possible to make the kind of money that some of these bands in the 80's and 90's made without record sales? Do you think the amount of people trying to make a living at music is going to go way down because the chances of them doing much more than just barely surviving are not very good??

Just curious as to what people think about this.....especially those on this board that are actually using music to support themselves.
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Fran
post Jun 23 2010, 10:55 PM
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I think it's possible, but maybe the money will come more from live concerts than from selling CDs, or mp3 downloads for that matter.

If a band is good, and are lucky enough to reach a wide audience, they will sell lots of concert tickets and albums/downloads too.

Just my 2 cents wink.gif

Edit: appearing on radio, TV, internet radio is always desirable to get that "famous" status needed to earn lots of cash I guess.

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lcsdds
post Jun 23 2010, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Jun 23 2010, 10:55 PM) *
I think it's possible, but maybe the money will come more from live concerts than from selling CDs, or mp3 downloads for that matter.

If a band is good, and are lucky enough to reach a wide audience, they will sell lots of concert tickets and albums/downloads too.

Just my 2 cents wink.gif

Edit: appearing on radio, TV, internet radio is always desirable to get that "famous" status needed to earn lots of cash I guess.

So who would be an example of this?? It seems like that back in the 80's and 90's the "stadium tours" were a direct result of large album sales. With downloading you don't get the kind of album sales that are required to put on huge tours. I just don't see how you can generate the kind of money that the bands back in the day could with illegal downloading now. I'm not a professional musician but this is what it seems like to me. How come Guthrie Govan..... who is arguable the best guitarist on the planet.....hasn't done a tour? It just seems like the days of making A LOT of money doing music is over. sad.gif
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Bogdan Radovic
post Jun 23 2010, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jun 24 2010, 12:10 AM) *
So who would be an example of this?? It seems like that back in the 80's and 90's the "stadium tours" were a direct result of large album sales. With downloading you don't get the kind of album sales that are required to put on huge tours. I just don't see how you can generate the kind of money that the bands back in the day could with illegal downloading now. I'm not a professional musician but this is what it seems like to me. How come Guthrie Govan..... who is arguable the best guitarist on the planet.....hasn't done a tour? It just seems like the days of making A LOT of money doing music is over. sad.gif


I wouldn't be so sure. Downloading has maybe diminished actual physical CDs sales BUT that same advance of technology and internet brought some other advantages along. Now you can reach from your home a much wider audience that you could ever before downloading was popular. You can get much more exposure through internet then through any record company/stores/tv/radio. I think that things look great for musicians nowadays and CD format is getting old by every day. Bands fill stadiums nowadays too and their music reaches more people resulting better live shows (more people buying tickets). Guthrie Govan is great but everything really depends a lot on popularity of the music he plays not the individual quality of musician. There are so many musicians today that don't make it or get recognition but that was situation before and it will always be. Its not just talent, promotion and other skills really make the difference nowadays....

This is really complex issue. Generally I think its cool to be a musician in this modern age where you can become famous over night if you make a cool youtube video. Though I would also like my bands physical CDs to be sold more as its not the same having a original CD with packaging and everything and a digital file on your PC... But we all have to adapt to new market....


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lcsdds
post Jun 23 2010, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Jun 23 2010, 11:34 PM) *
I wouldn't be so sure. Downloading has maybe diminished actual physical CDs sales BUT that same advance of technology and internet brought some other advantages along. Now you can reach from your home a much wider audience that you could ever before downloading was popular. You can get much more exposure through internet then through any record company/stores/tv/radio. I think that things look great for musicians nowadays and CD format is getting old by every day. Bands fill stadiums nowadays too and their music reaches more people resulting better live shows (more people buying tickets). Guthrie Govan is great but everything really depends a lot on popularity of the music he plays not the individual quality of musician. There are so many musicians today that don't make it or get recognition but that was situation before and it will always be. Its not just talent, promotion and other skills really make the difference nowadays....

This is really complex issue. Generally I think its cool to be a musician in this modern age where you can become famous over night if you make a cool youtube video. Though I would also like my bands physical CDs to be sold more as its not the same having a original CD with packaging and everything and a digital file on your PC... But we all have to adapt to new market....

Thanks for your thoughts on this Bogdan. So what recent bands would you say are making the kind of money that say Def Leppard or any of the other popular bands in the 80's and 90's are making? It seems like you can make a living but just not to the extent that you could back in then.
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Daniel Realpe
post Jun 24 2010, 04:29 PM
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I don't think bands can get as big as they got in the 80s 90s,

but that doesn't mean they will do good money, just not as much,

Music will always be there, and will always have a demand,



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Vasilije Vukmiro...
post Jun 24 2010, 04:46 PM
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I agree with Bogdan. Technology brought free download music but also opportunity to present your self to broader, global audience.
I mean, even if people would buy CDs, fees for musicians are so small that it's pointless. Radiohead and several others published free online albums, that speaks everything! smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Jun 24 2010, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Daniel Realpe @ Jun 24 2010, 04:29 PM) *
I don't think bands can get as big as they got in the 80s 90s,

but that doesn't mean they will do good money, just not as much,

Music will always be there, and will always have a demand,
So what do you think a musician can make in today's enviroment. I see that being a musician requires A LOT of sacrifice. First you have to practice a lot. No big deal because if you love music this is not work.....it is fun. But eventually you get to the point where you need to support yourself. If you plan on making your money teaching then it seems to me that you will probably just scrape by doing this. If you make money touring then you have to sacrifice time away from your family. I think I read one time that John Mellencamp was on the road for a total of 8 out of 10 years. That is a huge sacrifice for family. Now.....John Mellencamp made BIG MONEY. I just don't think musicians can have that kind of financial success today that they once could. So why wouldn't most people decide to get a "straight" job and pursue music as a hobby and on their own terms. I think the downloading thing is going to have a much larger impact in the future than we realize. I mean take yourself Daniel.....you are a Phenomenal guitarist. Do you have an album out?? Are you going to tour in support of it?? Is music your sole source of income? This subject fascinates me. I remember when I dreamed of being a musician. I didn't start playing until I was 18 and I got married at 21 so my dream was just that......a dream. laugh.gif
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Azzaboi
post Jun 24 2010, 07:30 PM
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Rename your album which got leaked...

System of a Down - Steal This Album!

Include a cool cd cover:


The album comes in a normal CD jewel case without a booklet, only the CD. On the CD and the back of the case, it looks like it has been written on with a black permanent marker pen, in faux-bootleg style to make it look like it has been pirated. This is an obvious response by the band to the people who leaked the original Toxicity II CD.


I would say go with it, you can't fight it or you just get hated (for example metallica fans with Napster). The more your music gets out their, the more go to your contests and actual fans will buy the album to collect if it's good quality. It's free advertising? Metallica sales are huge, and are pirated the most around the world. You can either look at the glass half full or half empty. Would they have made more sales without it, I don't think so...

People which like it, will still buy it. Maybe a smaller percentage of the entire crowd, but a way larger fan group around the entire world, so you probably make more sales than you would without people knowing/sampling/stealing your album. For basic example: 90% of million sales or 60% of a billion+ sales you do the math.

Question: Stereogram has not been pirated, also using a name which if searched finds a number of unrelated links, but how many of you know them? And yeah they are pretty good sounding. Zero world marketing.

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lcsdds
post Jun 24 2010, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jun 24 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Rename your album which got leaked...

System of a Down - Steal This Album!

Include a cool cd cover:


The album comes in a normal CD jewel case without a booklet, only the CD. On the CD and the back of the case, it looks like it has been written on with a black permanent marker pen, in faux-bootleg style to make it look like it has been pirated. This is an obvious response by the band to the people who leaked the original Toxicity II CD.


I would say go with it, you can't fight it or you just get hated (for example metallica fans with Napster). The more your music gets out their, the more go to your contests and actual fans will buy the album to collect if it's good quality. It's free advertising? Metallica sales are huge, and they where pirated the most around the world. You can either look at the glass half full or half empty.

People which like it, will still buy it. Maybe a smaller percentage of the entire crowd, but a way larger fan group around the entire world, so you probably make more sales than you would without people knowing/sampling/stealing your album.

Question: Stereogram has not been pirated, also using a name which if searched finds a number of unrelated links, but how many of you know them? And yeah they are pretty good sounding. Zero world marketing.
Why would somebody buy something that they can get for free? Maybe some people will but the VAST majority won't. I think the days of huge album sales are over........
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Azzaboi
post Jun 24 2010, 08:00 PM
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You buy it to collect and it's better quality!

Some people pirate it, listen, then the next day go buy it. Why? Well to support the band and because nothing can beat an original. It was a good way to sample the music. For those people that don't, they might of never brought it or heard about it in the first place anyways. I'm not saying everyone would, but more people = more fans for your contests and more sales in the long run.

Also note not as many people use CDs anymore. It's more a collectors item.

I would probably check them on TV music channel then a leak on youtube. Download it for the iPod, buy for the car.

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post Jun 24 2010, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jun 24 2010, 08:51 AM) *
So what do you think a musician can make in today's enviroment. I see that being a musician requires A LOT of sacrifice. First you have to practice a lot. No big deal because if you love music this is not work.....it is fun. But eventually you get to the point where you need to support yourself. If you plan on making your money teaching then it seems to me that you will probably just scrape by doing this. If you make money touring then you have to sacrifice time away from your family. I think I read one time that John Mellencamp was on the road for a total of 8 out of 10 years. That is a huge sacrifice for family. Now.....John Mellencamp made BIG MONEY. I just don't think musicians can have that kind of financial success today that they once could. So why wouldn't most people decide to get a "straight" job and pursue music as a hobby and on their own terms. I think the downloading thing is going to have a much larger impact in the future than we realize. I mean take yourself Daniel.....you are a Phenomenal guitarist. Do you have an album out?? Are you going to tour in support of it?? Is music your sole source of income? This subject fascinates me. I remember when I dreamed of being a musician. I didn't start playing until I was 18 and I got married at 21 so my dream was just that......a dream. laugh.gif



Actually, Dream Theater have setup there touring schedules so they are never away from there families for more than few months. Nowadays if your smart with it, Music doesn't have to be as big of sacrifice as it was. Nevertheless it still is time and distance away from family.
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post Jun 25 2010, 01:42 AM
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So we're back in the pirating discussion again... tongue.gif

By analyzing things over time, I just want to point out that I don't think things really changed that much.

Competition - the competition amongst musicians today is just greater of one reason, we are simply more people on the planet now than before. However, since its cheaper to produce an album today due to technology, the competition seems to be stiffer, but its actually not. Peoples behaviour consuming music has changed and therefore its a lot more stress to be a musician today than 50 years ago imo.

Pirating - In the 70'ths everybody was pirating by copying down albums to cassete. Did the music business go down the drain because of that? No, of course not. Like all industries they found other marketing strategies and continued to grow. Today, they complain that their SALES are less than before. That might be true, but that doesn't mean that their revenues are less. Instead of putting out an album with a popular artist every other year, they just adjusting the interval, so we can have a new album every year = their revenues will probably also increase. Also they will find new ways to distribute music by licensing songs, increase the prize for the rights to radio stations, hospitals etc. I dont think the labels suffer that much they are wining about.

Musicians making money - In the beginning of the 70'ths Rolling Stones made some 5-6 million dollars a year, just the MUSICIANS. Today, I heard that they were making 60 million dollars on their latest U.S tour just by selling tickets & merchandise. The wages for musicians under the top is still lousy, and has always been, eg. the record companies drinking the musicians blood. I think that live music will be more popular in the future, which is a positive thing since untalented-plastic-record-company singers never will make it to the large venues.

Talent vs. Money - If You wanna get rich on music - dont be a musician. Start a record label instead. There are simply so many great, talented musicians that never had a break in the history, so the chance to make a "breakthrough" is minimal. You will need a lot more than talent, eg. the looks, luck, play the right music in the right time, be in the right band, sleep with the record company's owners daughter etc......

However, things are changing, but not in the pace it should. And I think that even that there are many musicians around, there have never been so many opportunities to market Yourself and Your music as nowadays - the 10.000 dollar question is: Will people like it???

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JamesT
post Jun 25 2010, 04:12 AM
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No doubt about it, Money = Popularity in music.

Even in the 80s, I knew a lot of exceptionally talented musicians in good bands who could not make it over the top of just making decent money playing in the clubs and bars.

Like the others have said it takes a combination of a lot of things, but I think the one ove-arching requrement is that your music must be hugely popular. Is today's world different than the eighties? ... I guess the styles that are popular have changed, but is there still room for virtuoso guitar in todays music? I think it may have always been the same that the songs themselves may matter more.

I guess if the goal is to make a lot of money as a musician then you've got to think about how to improve all of the things that can make your music popular. Musicianship might still be among the most important, but even if its at the top of the list, it doesn't outrank a lot of things when it comes to making money at it. Here are some probably equally weighted factors.

a) Musicianship -- you've got to be good
cool.gif Song writing -- your songs have to appeal to lots of people.
c) Production -- You've got to have commercial quality recordings
d) Marketing -- To market your product, I think you have got to rely on other people. I think that the skills of a,b, and c (above) are where the musician really has to focus ... on getting a good product. After that, it takes other people. You need other people cause it takes a full time effort (probably of many people) to successfully market even great products. If your product is music, it's no different. You can't just do a you-tube posting and expect fame and fortune. (Though you-tube is one good way these days to get heard). If you're serious about commercial success, I think you've got to find talented managers who are willing to take the same risk and make the same investment of time and energy that you do with your music. If that manager (or marketing team) is really good, and you've got a, b, and c (above) sorted out, then get ready for e (below).
e) get ready to spend a lot of time traveling, gigging, and playing your stuff till you're sick of the music, tired of the hotels, and beat from the intensity.

Monte, this probably doesn't answer your question so directly, but in my opinion, if all of those things above fall into place, then yes, you can still make a lot of money in music.

QUOTE (JamesT @ Jun 24 2010, 08:12 PM) *
No doubt about it, Money = Popularity in music.

Even in the 80s, I knew a lot of exceptionally talented musicians in good bands who could not make it over the top of just making decent money playing in the clubs and bars.

Like the others have said it takes a combination of a lot of things, but I think the one ove-arching requrement is that your music must be hugely popular. Is today's world different than the eighties? ... I guess the styles that are popular have changed, but is there still room for virtuoso guitar in todays music? I think it may have always been the same that the songs themselves may matter more.

I guess if the goal is to make a lot of money as a musician then you've got to think about how to improve all of the things that can make your music popular. Musicianship might still be among the most important, but even if its at the top of the list, it doesn't outrank a lot of things when it comes to making money at it. Here are some probably equally weighted factors.

a) Musicianship -- you've got to be good
cool.gif Song writing -- your songs have to appeal to lots of people.
c) Production -- You've got to have commercial quality recordings
d) Marketing -- To market your product, I think you have got to rely on other people. I think that the skills of a,b, and c (above) are where the musician really has to focus ... on getting a good product. After that, it takes other people. You need other people cause it takes a full time effort (probably of many people) to successfully market even great products. If your product is music, it's no different. You can't just do a you-tube posting and expect fame and fortune. (Though you-tube is one good way these days to get heard). If you're serious about commercial success, I think you've got to find talented managers who are willing to take the same risk and make the same investment of time and energy that you do with your music. If that manager (or marketing team) is really good, and you've got a, b, and c (above) sorted out, then get ready for e (below).
e) Performance -- get ready to spend a lot of time traveling, gigging, and playing your stuff till you're sick of the music, tired of the hotels, and beat from the intensity. Make sure to put on a great show every night.

Monte, this probably doesn't answer your question so directly, but in my opinion, if all of those things above fall into place, then yes, you can still make a lot of money in music.



edit: fixed some typos.

This post has been edited by JamesT: Jun 25 2010, 04:16 AM


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Bogdan Radovic
post Jun 26 2010, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jun 24 2010, 12:47 AM) *
Thanks for your thoughts on this Bogdan. So what recent bands would you say are making the kind of money that say Def Leppard or any of the other popular bands in the 80's and 90's are making? It seems like you can make a living but just not to the extent that you could back in then.


Have you seen newer tours/shows of Iron Maiden, RHCP, Metallica, Rolling Stones, Franc Ferdinand, Madonna...

I actually think that nowadays there is much more money invested into love shows (sponsors, TV broadcasting, different rights etc)...
Trend of the future seems to be shifting towards live shows which is a great thing. I don't think band's ever lived out of record sales only (some did like Beatles who performed live for a short period). Also you have to think in larger scale, famous bands do sell large quantities of CDs, merch, limited edition CDs and also DIGITAL downloads. I think that CD medium is getting too old nowadays and that is the only problem with record companies. Once they figure out the new one for the future and also marketing strategy it will be O.K. What Vasilije pointed too, artist revenues on CD sales are minimal (most of it goes into the production of CD medium,distribution, record company etc) so you can't rely on that.
Now regarding comments of sacrifice - that is like with anything in life. If you want to be a touring musician you need to sacrifice your "home" and be ready to live on the road....

Its tough to make it as a musician. But its not impossible and I strongly believe that the most part of it is up to you. If you believe in what you are doing and you are persistant to getting your goals (dreams) accomplished - you will. Just work on it and never stop!



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lcsdds
post Jun 26 2010, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Jun 26 2010, 02:26 PM) *
Have you seen newer tours/shows of Iron Maiden, RHCP, Metallica, Rolling Stones, Franc Ferdinand, Madonna...

I actually think that nowadays there is much more money invested into love shows (sponsors, TV broadcasting, different rights etc)...
Trend of the future seems to be shifting towards live shows which is a great thing. I don't think band's ever lived out of record sales only (some did like Beatles who performed live for a short period). Also you have to think in larger scale, famous bands do sell large quantities of CDs, merch, limited edition CDs and also DIGITAL downloads. I think that CD medium is getting too old nowadays and that is the only problem with record companies. Once they figure out the new one for the future and also marketing strategy it will be O.K. What Vasilije pointed too, artist revenues on CD sales are minimal (most of it goes into the production of CD medium,distribution, record company etc) so you can't rely on that.
Now regarding comments of sacrifice - that is like with anything in life. If you want to be a touring musician you need to sacrifice your "home" and be ready to live on the road....

Its tough to make it as a musician. But its not impossible and I strongly believe that the most part of it is up to you. If you believe in what you are doing and you are persistant to getting your goals (dreams) accomplished - you will. Just work on it and never stop!
I agree with you Bogdan. The bands you mentioned though are established acts and made all their money in the heyday of music in the 80's and 90's.......I'm sure those tours are making good money but those are LONG established acts. I just don't see how the 16 year old practicing in his bedroom right now can dream about having a career like the bands you mentioned. I could be wrong though. It just seems like the days of making the kind of money that the bands you mentioned are a thing of the past.
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post Jun 26 2010, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jun 26 2010, 05:48 PM) *
I agree with you Bogdan. The bands you mentioned though are established acts and made all their money in the heyday of music in the 80's and 90's.......I'm sure those tours are making good money but those are LONG established acts. I just don't see how the 16 year old practicing in his bedroom right now can dream about having a career like the bands you mentioned. I could be wrong though. It just seems like the days of making the kind of money that the bands you mentioned are a thing of the past.



... Im in trouble;D I think you can get big, but it depends what you do, and what audience you attract. I wanna make a living playing guitar, not so nessicarily live in a mansion with a pimped toyota with 20 inch rims. I'm thinking if it would be possible to becoma a Nashville session player;) Would be a dream come true!!!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jun 27 2010, 03:12 AM
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Everything works the same way, only through different channels, and the music has changed quite a bit too. These days we have new music that is mostly programmed, new bands that fill arenas and stadiums, and communicate with audience on completely different level, through internet. But the essence is the same - make music, sell music. Today you sell it via download service, and sell tickets online for upcoming show. It's as simple as that. And yes, you can make more money, only the money/income is being generated on different places using different methods that are important TODAY.

Now don't get me started about discussion about today's music vs 70ties music, that is completely another story, and I'm pretty subjective on the matter smile.gif


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