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> Ear Training Perfect 4th And 5ths
Nighthawk1
post Jul 13 2010, 11:20 AM
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Hi there GMC,

I am just doing some EarTraining Lessons via EarMasterPro and I am currently stuck in a lesson where you have to tell which of two intervalls is the bigger one. In this particular lesson the trainer plays a perfect fourth, a perfect fifth and a tritonus (which means a dim fifth or respectively an aug fourth which are the same) .

For me it is no problem hearing the tritonus and discriminating it from the other intervalls because it is very dissonant.
But I really can't hear the difference between the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth. By the way, the trainer plays each intervall from a different root which makes it also more difficult to differentiate the two intervalls.

I think the problem in hearing the difference between a perfect 4th and 5th is that an inverted 5th chord (or powerchord) is actually a perfect fourth intervall. So you can't say the perfect 5th is the powerchord sound and that's why it is easy to identify. For example the famous "Smoke on the water" riff is also played in inverted 5th intervalls meaning you play the fifth in the base which is the same as a perfect fourth interval. I think the problem shows up with all complementary intervalls but this is the first one I encounter.
This fact makes it very difficult for me hearing what interval is being played or which one is bigger if the trainer plays a fourth and a fifth..

Now, have you some tips how to hear these particular intervalls?

Thanks a lot smile.gif

This post has been edited by Nighthawk1: Jul 13 2010, 11:22 AM
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Vasilije Vukmiro...
post Jul 13 2010, 11:31 AM
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"Smoke on the water" example is great, that is great approach because involves association, which again, we know it is the single most important method of memory process.


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Nighthawk1
post Jul 13 2010, 11:33 AM
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Yeah, but my problem is if someone asked me if it is a perfect fourth or a fifth being played I don't know the answer because it sounds both like powerchord...
Can you tell me how to hear which intervall is played???

This post has been edited by Nighthawk1: Jul 13 2010, 11:34 AM
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 13 2010, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk1 @ Jul 13 2010, 11:33 AM) *
Yeah, but my problem is if someone asked me if it is a perfect fourth or a fifth being played I don't know the answer because it sounds both like powerchord...
Can you tell me how to hear which intervall is played???

If you recognise a major third interval, and a tritone (tritonus), you can basically tell that the perfect fourth is in the middle of the two. I think you need to use your voice and get used to the leap in a perfect fourth interval. Just like some singers practise singing arpeggios, you should do the same either by ear or voice (or guitar) for the minor third, tritone and perfect fifth, then maybe you can tell the difference more easily.

What also works is singing the major scale in your head beginning with the root note, basically see which number the note you hear lands on. If you learn to recognise the unresolved sound of a sus4 chord, you can also distinguish more easily.

Hope some of this helps, and...
Good luck smile.gif

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 13 2010, 12:07 PM


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Nighthawk1
post Jul 13 2010, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 13 2010, 01:07 PM) *
If you recognise a major third interval, and a tritone (tritonus), you can basically tell that the perfect fourth is in the middle of the two. I think you need to use your voice and get used to the leap in a perfect fourth interval. Just like some singers practise singing arpeggios, you should do the same either by ear or voice (or guitar) for the minor third, tritone and perfect fifth, then maybe you can tell the difference more easily.

What also works is singing the major scale in your head beginning with the root note, basically see which number the note you hear lands on. If you learn to recognise the unresolved sound of a sus4 chord, you can also distinguish more easily.

Hope some of this helps, and...
Good luck smile.gif

Thanks for the answer but I think your adivice only works if the intervall are played not simultaneiously.
I have the problem only when these intervals sound simultaneously...if presented stepwise I hear the difference clearly because you know that the first note is the root...but in this case I dont know of course what the root is because the notes are played at the same time
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 13 2010, 12:56 PM
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Harmonic way of playing intervals could be a bit harder to identify especially perfect 4th and perfect 5th. I always sing in my head "Here comes the bride" for perfect 4th or "Star wars" main theme for perfect 5th. Top Gun theme also helps for perfect 5th...
Check out my Interval series, you will see how I did both harmonic and melodic approach for those intervals, it should help you unlock the sound a bit more.

Perfect 4th LESSON

Perfect 5th LESSON


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Nighthawk1
post Jul 13 2010, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 13 2010, 01:56 PM) *
Harmonic way of playing intervals could be a bit harder to identify especially perfect 4th and perfect 5th. I always sing in my head "Here comes the bride" for perfect 4th or "Star wars" main theme for perfect 5th. Top Gun theme also helps for perfect 5th...
Check out my Interval series, you will see how I did both harmonic and melodic approach for those intervals, it should help you unlock the sound a bit more.

Perfect 4th LESSON

Perfect 5th LESSON

again...this only works out if the intervalls are NOT played at the same time, doesn t it?. You can't sing two notes at the same time... huh.gif

This post has been edited by Nighthawk1: Jul 13 2010, 01:13 PM
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 13 2010, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk1 @ Jul 13 2010, 02:12 PM) *
again...this only works out if the intervalls are NOT played at the same time, doesn t it?. You can't sing two notes at the same time... huh.gif


Again don't let this stop you from improving. Concept is very simple. Interval is relationship between any two notes in the music. It could be played together (harmonic) or one note after another (melodic way). If you have two notes played at the same time, your ear should focus hearing lowest note and then identifying what that highest note is. For example, you get harmonic interval where lower note is C and you are working on Perfect 4ths or Perfect 5ths. All you need to do is sing C to F , C to G in your head (quick!) and compare that to the harmonic sound you are getting.
This is the best explanation I can give you for this. If you have time, come attend some of my video chats and I will demonstrate you this skill in the actual chat for it to make 100% sense.


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djohnneay
post Jul 13 2010, 09:51 PM
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I used to have problems with just that in the program.
Though I can't give you advice because I still have them.... sorry dude!
Oh well, back to practicing then...


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 13 2010, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk1 @ Jul 13 2010, 01:12 PM) *
again...this only works out if the intervalls are NOT played at the same time, doesn t it?. You can't sing two notes at the same time... huh.gif

Dude, start playing piano if you aren't already, get familiar with the sound of a major chord C E G, then try playing a sus4, C F G. It will sound unresolved. Likewise, when you have a perfect fourth interval C F, it will try to creep down one semitone to get a major third C E, to resolve. Once you get this you will never have a problem with distinguishing between a perfect 4th and 5th. smile.gif


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AdamB
post Jul 14 2010, 12:39 PM
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perfect 4th is the first two notes from amazing grace, perfect 5th is the beginning of twinkle twinkle little star. That's how I remembered it.

You just need a point of reference for your interval, using intros to pieces of music you know that begin with that interval is the best way (also you have to have a second set for the interval going downwards).

Then after a while you dont need any of that anymore, you just kinda know them somehow from doing the exercises over and over and over everyday.

Edit: On the 2 notes at the same time thing, I found using the musictheory.net exercise (at the bottom of the page is the link to the 'classic' site which has the exercise on) was good, because there's an option to play the notes seperate followed by playing them together. Then I ID them with the seperate, but you're also bombarded with teh notes together and just kinda learn to recognize them because you've heard them together so many times.

Basically just listen to the intervals so much that you've heard them so many times that you can't not know what they are. I think I even made a bunch of recordings of the intervals beign played from different notes and just played them on loop on my computer at work while I worked, so one day I'd listen to maj3rd intervals for a few hours and then the next day min3rd etc. It's very dull, but then you'll just know them coz you've heard them so much.

This post has been edited by AdamB: Jul 14 2010, 12:42 PM
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 14 2010, 01:00 PM
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I recommended Music theory.net site a while ago. It is site that even teachers at Berklee refer students to. Free ! Unlike ear master pro or other software programs all over the net. You have everything you need on that site, just need to visit it frequently and practice all forms of interval sounds.


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Thrasymachus
post Jul 14 2010, 03:00 PM
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In my experience singing the intervals melodically actualy do help to recocnise them harmonicly as well.

I have also found it helpfull to play one note on my guitar while singing the other, especially if you move betwen the fourth and the fifth, paying attension to the changing relationship with the root
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 14 2010, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Thrasymachus @ Jul 14 2010, 04:00 PM) *
In my experience singing the intervals melodically actualy do help to recocnise them harmonicly as well.

I have also found it helpfull to play one note on my guitar while singing the other, especially if you move betwen the fourth and the fifth, paying attension to the changing relationship with the root


Thats exactly what I demonstrated in video chats when I was showing how to practice intervals. Play the note on the guitar, sing it, then sing from it interval you need to work on. Sing it by using melody from famous song that starts that ways, scale fragment, arpeggio or whatever looks that distance in your ear.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 14 2010, 09:28 PM
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You can try focusing on playing perfect fourth and fifth intervals all over the neck. Try with distortion, as you will hear harmonics that will help you differentiate the two. In time, memory for each will develop don't worry. Just takes time.


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Nighthawk1
post Jul 17 2010, 10:58 AM
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Thanks for all your inspiring advises biggrin.gif I think I can get it that way...Again, GMC forum is a great place.. laugh.gif
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jstcrsn
post Jul 17 2010, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (Nighthawk1 @ Jul 13 2010, 11:20 AM) *
Hi there GMC,

I am just doing some EarTraining Lessons via EarMasterPro and I am currently stuck in a lesson where you have to tell which of two intervalls is the bigger one. In this particular lesson the trainer plays a perfect fourth, a perfect fifth and a tritonus (which means a dim fifth or respectively an aug fourth which are the same) .

For me it is no problem hearing the tritonus and discriminating it from the other intervalls because it is very dissonant.
But I really can't hear the difference between the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth. By the way, the trainer plays each intervall from a different root which makes it also more difficult to differentiate the two intervalls.

I think the problem in hearing the difference between a perfect 4th and 5th is that an inverted 5th chord (or powerchord) is actually a perfect fourth intervall. So you can't say the perfect 5th is the powerchord sound and that's why it is easy to identify. For example the famous "Smoke on the water" riff is also played in inverted 5th intervalls meaning you play the fifth in the base which is the same as a perfect fourth interval. I think the problem shows up with all complementary intervalls but this is the first one I encounter.
This fact makes it very difficult for me hearing what interval is being played or which one is bigger if the trainer plays a fourth and a fifth..

Now, have you some tips how to hear these particular intervalls?

Thanks a lot smile.gif

i don't know if this has already been said but you need to find a song that is easily recognizable
as in Amazing grace- the first two notes-this is a major forth- D to G, in the key of G -but you need to find a song for every interval-major and minor
then you should be able find the note you need from the note that you are at, and in time you will start improving and finding them quickly

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Jul 17 2010, 09:13 PM
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