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> It's Election Day In The Usa
Praetorian
post Nov 6 2010, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 6 2010, 12:32 AM) *
Praetorian, this is more than simply a difference of political views. I can accept someone having a difference of opinion than me. I don't think someone is retarded because they have a different way of doing things.


I really don't care what your motivation is for insulting people. But when you insult people openly on this forum, I take it to heart. I know you haven't been here all that long, but let me clear something up for you. This website and it's moderators do NOT tolerate insults or attacks on other members. It's what separates it from all the other forums on the net. If you want to have an argumentative discussion, try somewhere else. If you want to insult entire groups of people, GMC members and developmentally disabled people...then please, go elsewhere.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 6 2010, 01:48 PM
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Just for info guys we are monitoring this thread closely and will take appropriate action if necessary. At the moment the thread is fine imo albeit that some of it sails a bit close to the wind.
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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Praetorian @ Nov 6 2010, 08:06 AM) *
I really don't care what your motivation is for insulting people. But when you insult people openly on this forum, I take it to heart. I know you haven't been here all that long, but let me clear something up for you. This website and it's moderators do NOT tolerate insults or attacks on other members. It's what separates it from all the other forums on the net. If you want to have an argumentative discussion, try somewhere else. If you want to insult entire groups of people, GMC members and developmentally disabled people...then please, go elsewhere.



Yes, I'm quite sure the developmentally disabled be would be quite offended to have their intelligence compared to that of the tea baggers, but that wasn't what I was inferring. Seeing how you're a native English speaker you should know that using the word "retarded" doesn't always refer to the mentally challenged. I must add, the Tea Party doesn't really care about the mentally disabled, because they want to cut government programs that help American families with mentally challenged children.

If I was on here calling fundamentalist Muslim extremist retarded, none of you would be lifting a finger, in fact I would probably receive unanimous support. If I pointed out the inconsistencies and hypocrisy in Muslim extremist ideology, I would most likely be praised as a rationalist, and rightly so. Just like the Muslim extremist movement has become toxic to the Middle East, so to has the Tea Party to the US, albeit not nearly as deadly. How can we give legitimacy to a movement that is anti-intellectual and pro-war? The Tea Party supports people that want to stay at war and start another war Iran. They are indifferent to thought of people around the world being killed in war. Groups of people that support killing people in foreign wars deserve to be shunned.

I would like to thank Gary for being a true gentlemen. Out of all the people that disagreed with me, he has been the only person that actually made a case as to why he thought I was wrong, instead of just saying my post was offensive but not saying why. If the majority of the Tea Party was like him it probably wouldn't be such a repulsive movement.


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Marek Rojewski
post Nov 6 2010, 06:31 PM
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Mudbone, You seems to be intelligent, yet You trash the Tea party also because of it's free market ideas. Cutting ALL of social spendings is one of the key reasons how to heal economy and in result 90% of the population. You ask how can I say that taking away money from disabled children is right? Well it's pretty simple. The government doesn't have it's own income, it has to tax people in order to get money. So the government doesn't "give" anything to anyone, it just forces part of people to give part of their money to other people. For me this is an outrage, a theft, a huge crime. I am a 100% responsible for my own acts, and I want to be 0% responsible for the acts of others. If I won't have means to secure the future of my child, than I won't have a child - I SWEAR IT. It may sound that I have to high self esteem, but I think that I am quite a helpful guy, at least thats what all my friends say. I would help other people if I could, especially considering I don't have huge material needs on my own. But I hate to be forced to do so, if money is "the fruit" of my work, than I am the sole person in the whole world that should have anything to say about how this "fruit" should be used.

This above is the simple, yet for me "100% true" ideological reason, why social government is wrong. To this comes countless examples why this system works bad in the world. For example in my country "retirement system" is like this: in your whole life You pay approximately 160 000$ for Your retirement, and statistically You get 23 000$ out of it before You die. The rest - 137 000$ is wasted, nobody from ones family gets even a penny, all the rest is consumed by the bureaucracy. I would know how to spend this kind of money to secure my life better - for sure. Social government is such a pathetic system, that in Africa even some countries that have oil deposits are not earning cash on selling it. I know just few homo-sapiens that could go bankrupt while having a gold mine, but without free market it is quite easy...

So while racism or fanaticism is a reason to dislike a person, please turn on the bright side of the force - the free market! \m/ wink.gif

EDIT: eh I read my post, I am such a free market fanatic - darn... wink.gif Still free market = cheaper guitars, so I win!

This post has been edited by Marek Rojewski: Nov 6 2010, 06:36 PM


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Praetorian
post Nov 6 2010, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 6 2010, 12:43 PM) *
Seeing how you're a native English speaker you should know that using the word "retarded" doesn't always refer to the mentally challenged


No? Try using it as a slang term which you so eloquently do, to a person with a developmentally disabled family member and see how they react. Also, if you expect to be taken seriously in an adult discussion of politics, try not using terms like "tea baggers". Calling people ridiculous names does nothing more than make you sound immature and negates any validity your beliefs may contain.

Oh, one more thing. I'm not a Tea Party member.

This post has been edited by Praetorian: Nov 6 2010, 07:33 PM


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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Nov 6 2010, 01:31 PM) *
Mudbone, You seems to be intelligent, yet You trash the Tea party also because of it's free market ideas. Cutting ALL of social spendings is one of the key reasons how to heal economy and in result 90% of the population. You ask how can I say that taking away money from disabled children is right? Well it's pretty simple. The government doesn't have it's own income, it has to tax people in order to get money. So the government doesn't "give" anything to anyone, it just forces part of people to give part of their money to other people. For me this is an outrage, a theft, a huge crime. I am a 100% responsible for my own acts, and I want to be 0% responsible for the acts of others. If I won't have means to secure the future of my child, than I won't have a child - I SWEAR IT. It may sound that I have to high self esteem, but I think that I am quite a helpful guy, at least thats what all my friends say. I would help other people if I could, especially considering I don't have huge material needs on my own. But I hate to be forced to do so, if money is "the fruit" of my work, than I am the sole person in the whole world that should have anything to say about how this "fruit" should be used.

This above is the simple, yet for me "100% true" ideological reason, why social government is wrong. To this comes countless examples why this system works bad in the world. For example in my country "retirement system" is like this: in your whole life You pay approximately 160 000$ for Your retirement, and statistically You get 23 000$ out of it before You die. The rest - 137 000$ is wasted, nobody from ones family gets even a penny, all the rest is consumed by the bureaucracy. I would know how to spend this kind of money to secure my life better - for sure. Social government is such a pathetic system, that in Africa even some countries that have oil deposits are not earning cash on selling it. I know just few homo-sapiens that could go bankrupt while having a gold mine, but without free market it is quite easy...

So while racism or fanaticism is a reason to dislike a person, please turn on the bright side of the force - the free market! \m/ wink.gif

I'm not that intelligent, just slightly smarter than a rock tongue.gif I'm am not opposed to the free market, as I come from a family of career businessmen. But I do understand the need for there to be a cop on the block.

EDIT: eh I read my post, I am such a free market fanatic - darn... wink.gif Still free market = cheaper guitars, so I win!


I'm not that intelligent, just slightly smarter than a rock tongue.gif I'm am not opposed to the free market, as I come from a family of career businessmen. But I do understand the need for there to be a cop on the block. Imagine an American Football game with no referee, the players would literally kill each other. Do you think its right for businesses to sell products that they know are defective? Thats pretty much what the banks did. Read this article and you'll see why sometimes we need regulation: Glass-Steagall Act

You live in a country that was once exclusively socialist, so I definitely understand your sentiment. Pure socialism is immoral and reprehensible. But having an exclusively free market system with no government is anarchy, Somalia has such a system. We need to deal with things on case to case basis, and not apply blanket ideology to everything. Nothing in life is completely black or white, peace is within the gray areas.

The fire department in the US used to be privately run, and you would have to buy insurance and then put a tag on your house verifying you paid. If you didn't pay then they would let your house burn down. What isn't immediately obvious is the fact that this is also dangerous to the neighbors that did pay their insurance, as that fire can easily spread to adjacent houses. So you can see why we need a fire department that isn't profit driven.

Whats upsetting is the fact that the government has become a separate entity from the people. In a true democratic republic people elect legislators to implement laws they want. We no longer view the government as something we choose it to be. However, in a democracy, we have exactly the government we deserve because we're the ones that chose it. I think the US should be like Brazil and make it mandatory to vote. Most people in the US don't vote, so sometimes we're stuck with a government only the minority wants.

Whats sad is the political climate has moved so far to the right that any moderate wishing to express their views seems like a Bolshevik commie. My beef with the Tea Party isn't really their views per se, but their hypocrisy, as previously mentioned, and their support for ignorant, uneducated, warmongering politicians.

I hate to come off as a political goon, because I spend most of my free time playing guitar, shooting guns, and drinking beer tongue.gif Its just that most Americans that share my views never speak up, and I don't want the only voice of the US to be the radical right.



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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Praetorian @ Nov 6 2010, 02:19 PM) *
No? Try using it as a slang term which you so eloquently do, to a person with a developmentally disabled family member and see how they react. Also, if you expect to be taken seriously in an adult discussion of politics, try not using terms like "tea baggers". Calling people ridiculous names does nothing more than make you sound immature and negates any validity your beliefs may contain.

Oh, one more thing. I'm not a Tea Party member.


I would not use that word towards the mentally handicapped. Just like I would not call a mentally handicapped person dumb, lame, or stupid. Are we supposed to remove those words from our language as well? Are you gonna tell me you have never used any of those words?

As far as the term "tea bagger", Tea Party members wear tea bags on their hats all the time, so I think its a fair term.

No matter how I put things, facts are facts. My eloquence, or lack thereof, has nothing to with the validity of my argument.


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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


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kahall
post Nov 6 2010, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 6 2010, 12:33 AM) *
So you just decided to say what I said was "offensive" but refuse to say why? I'm not the only person reading this, so feel free to prove me wrong to all the international readers, I'm sure they want to hear what you have to say.

Other than calling the Tea Party movement retarded, what else have I said that was "offensive"? You are free to have your positions and I am free to have my opinions of them. You do support freedom of speech, right?

You say you and the Tea Party are for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but where were you when the Republicans suspended Habeas Corpus? (Article One, Section 9 of the Constitution) Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans implemented warrantless wiretapping? (violates Fourth Amendment) The Republicans did this not just to shadowy terrorists, but to our fellow Americans. Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans sent 5,000 young Americans to their death in Iraq? Another 25,000 also suffered severe injuries. Is this not tyranny?

So lets look at aspects of American history and what the Conservative and Progressive movements had to do with it.

1) The Constitution: Conceived by Progressives Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin, to name a few. Their idea that all men are created equal was far from conservative for their time. The conservatives wanted to maintain the nobility system. The separation of church and state was extraordinarily progressive for their time, the United States was the first country with out a state church.

2) Slavery: Conservatives wanted to maintain it, Progressives did away with it.

3) Social Security and Medicare: Conceived and implemented by Progressives, opposed by conservatives. You think those programs are bad? Go tell your grandmother you want to take away her Social Security and Medicare, I hope you can run faster than the boot she'll throw at you.

4) Civil Rights: Progressives gave black people the right to ride the bus, to drink at "white" water fountains, and the right to marry white people. Conservatives opposed it.

The United States has always been about moving forward, not the status quo. I can say with full confidence that the United States has been the most progressive nation in human history, and until recently, has never been about conservatism or the status quo.

My posts aren't meant to persuade any tea baggers. This is an international forum, and I would like to educate fellow members from around the world on issues in this country. The previous administration has destroyed our image and standing in the world, and I fully intend on promoting a positive image. We Americans share this world with other people, we don't own it.

This video below is a parody done by Saturday Night Live of a Sarah Palin interview. The cast of SNL didn't have to modify Sarah Palin words, this is almost EXACTLY what she said. Tell me, do you want this woman to be the most powerful person in the world?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE2gE-VVjBI


Your entire post is just silly and full of your own views and not based on any facts at all. I am not going to go through your post of rewritten history and argue it line by line because it is a waste of time like I said before. You have strong feelings albeit wrong, and you will never ever be convinced otherwise so why bother.

Your use of the word teabagger or tea bagger is disgusting and is not educating anyone about anything except that you like to call people names. I know liberals like to say we chose the name but that is not true. It's T.E.A. (Taxed Enough Already) Party. The Teabagger name was given to us be the liberal media which can't stand us so they had to do something to belittle us with a sexually derogatory name but of course you already knew that but used it anyway.

I will make an exception and address your progressives stopped slavery which is BS. A simple youtube vid is all it takes to show you how it really went down so it takes away very little of my guitar time.






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kaznie_NL
post Nov 6 2010, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 4 2010, 10:09 AM) *
To a person with a polarized mind, it may seem like I'm a Democrat, which couldn't be further from the truth. I can't stand them either, but the Republicans have become so lunatic the Democrats seem pretty moderate. In just about every election I have voted for myself or Homer Simpson.


Mudbone, first of all (disclaimer poo....) I haven't researched American politics and I will not, so I'm not in any way talking about your political views in this post. Second of all, I think you have the right to discuss politics and I think you do it prety well. Please try to use the arguments raised by the oposing 750 GMCers, and not just crush in against 'em, that might be exactly what the politicians do in your country, the reasen for you to have no faith in politics.

Now my question tongue.gif : Why don't you vote? I personally can't stand people who do not vote and then blame politicians. Not voting for me is giving up, it's running away from the problem. Could you explain me?

For us Dutch peoples, Americans are hard to understand. Hope you can respect that.

again, I believe this discussion should be here just fine and please mudbone, keep discussing, but be progressive in your discussion and don't insult. Just say T.E.A instead of teabag, it's still the same! same goes for 'retard'.... You're a fair discussor.

Mods: please, please, please, don't ban, kick or in any way block the thread, just PM the people who might be insulting. These are grown-ups.


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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (kahall @ Nov 6 2010, 03:07 PM) *
Your entire post is just silly and full of your own views and not based on any facts at all. I am not going to go through your post of rewritten history and argue it line by line because it is a waste of time like I said before. You have strong feelings albeit wrong, and you will never ever be convinced otherwise so why bother.

Your use of the word teabagger or tea bagger is disgusting and is not educating anyone about anything except that you like to call people names. I know liberals like to say we chose the name but that is not true. It's T.E.A. (Taxed Enough Already) Party. The Teabagger name was given to us be the liberal media which can't stand us so they had to do something to belittle us with a sexually derogatory name but of course you already knew that but used it anyway.

I will make an exception and address your progressives stopped slavery which is BS. A simple youtube vid is all it takes to show you how it really went down so it takes away very little of my guitar time.



I think you're confusing progressives with Democrats, and vice versa. You're absolutely right the Democrats were pro slavery, thats a correct statement. But they were conservative Democrats, not progressives. Actually, the Republicans at that time were the progressives. In fact the Republicans have a long streak of progressivism. Eisenhower, who built the largest highway system in the world, was a Republican. Can you imagine a conservative today proposing the same thing?

Up until 1964 the majority of the South was conservative Democrat, then blacks got their rights, and thats when the big shift to the Republican party happened. Back in the 19th century conservatives controlled the Democratic party, and now they have hijacked the Republican party.

As I have said earlier, tea party members embraced the term tea bagger, so its fair game.

Again you have said my statements were incorrect, but refuse to say why.


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Praetorian
post Nov 6 2010, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 6 2010, 03:06 PM) *
Are you gonna tell me you have never used any of those words?


When I was young and immature, yes. Now that I am an adult, I carry myself with more dignity and class.


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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Nov 6 2010, 03:30 PM) *
Mudbone, first of all (disclaimer poo....) I haven't researched American politics and I will not, so I'm not in any way talking about your political views in this post. Second of all, I think you have the right to discuss politics and I think you do it prety well. Please try to use the arguments raised by the oposing 750 GMCers, and not just crush in against 'em, that might be exactly what the politicians do in your country, the reasen for you to have no faith in politics.

Now my question tongue.gif : Why don't you vote? I personally can't stand people who do not vote and then blame politicians. Not voting for me is giving up, it's running away from the problem. Could you explain me?

For us Dutch peoples, Americans are hard to understand. Hope you can respect that.

again, I believe this discussion should be here just fine and please mudbone, keep discussing, but be progressive in your discussion and don't insult. Just say T.E.A instead of teabag, it's still the same! same goes for 'retard'.... You're a fair discussor.

Mods: please, please, please, don't ban, kick or in any way block the thread, just PM the people who might be insulting. These are grown-ups.


I know I come off as blunt and cocky, but there is a reason for that. Moderates in this country have become so timid in the face of the conservative movement that they have no chance of getting anything they want. Not me. I fully intend on standing up to conservative bullies, wherever, whenever. Well, except when its cuts into my guitar time, which this is kinda doing right now tongue.gif

As far as the name calling, nothing I have said is outrageously over the top insulting. I have not directed any names to any particular member. But the Tea Party movement as a whole? Absolutely. Extremism in any shape or form is not entitled to the respect that is given to reasonable causes.

As far as voting, I do vote. I have voted in just about every election, most of the time for myself. When I go to the polls and I don't find any politician I think would serve my interests, I vote for myself. I do this as a sign of no confidence in the government.

So far no one, other than Gary, has raised any opposing arguments. All I have gotten so far was, "Ya... you suck... because you do." smile.gif

I didn't know their were 750 members opposing this biggrin.gif





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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


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Marek Rojewski
post Nov 6 2010, 09:37 PM
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If there are no good candidates than it is very bad idea to vote for any of them.

The reason why I say so is this - if You give someone Your vote, it doesn't matter what were Your feelings about it. The person now represents You. If 50% of people with right to vote do vote, those politics/<insert something bad> can say that they rule by the mandate of half of the nation. It doesn't matter that not a single party had for example more than 30% of the votes, so in fact they know for sure that only 15% of population supports them, they still can lie that they rule because people want it. I don't want any half brained thief rule in my name. If only 10% of the population would vote, than such stupid talk about the will of the people would not be valid.

Of course the ideal democracy is a one where everyone vote, and what is even more important everybody know why he votes for certain party/person. But this is more utopia-like than a linage of only-wise-kings. Democracy is a system where sheep decide which wolf will eat them. A typical voter has no other idea about the candidates than their look, sexual life, religion or who their chaps vote for (they vote based on their favorite TV channel, with provide info about the look, sex... etc.). Thats why I support the idea of limited citizenship, searching a way how to prevent people without political knowledge from deciding about anything. In fact simple things like putting a question like "what VAT stands for" would most probably exclude votes of quite a big part of "citizens".


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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Nov 6 2010, 04:37 PM) *
If there are no good candidates than it is very bad idea to vote for any of them.

The reason why I say so is this - if You give someone Your vote, it doesn't matter what were Your feelings about it. The person now represents You. If 50% of people with right to vote do vote, those politics/<insert something bad> can say that they rule by the mandate of half of the nation. It doesn't matter that not a single party had for example more than 30% of the votes, so in fact they know for sure that only 15% of population supports them, they still can lie that they rule because people want it. I don't want any half brained thief rule in my name. If only 10% of the population would vote, than such stupid talk about the will of the people would not be valid.

Of course the ideal democracy is a one where everyone vote, and what is even more important everybody know why he votes for certain party/person. But this is more utopia-like than a linage of only-wise-kings. Democracy is a system where sheep decide which wolf will eat them. A typical voter has no other idea about the candidates than their look, sexual life, religion or who their chaps vote for (they vote based on their favorite TV channel, with provide info about the look, sex... etc.). Thats why I support the idea of limited citizenship, searching a way how to prevent people without political knowledge from deciding about anything. In fact simple things like putting a question like "what VAT stands for" would most probably exclude votes of quite a big part of "citizens".


I believe the best society in the world is the one the indigenous tribes of the Amazon have. Just lie around all day, licking poisonous bull frogs and making love smile.gif But there'll be no guitar so I guess that won't work tongue.gif

Edit: You're idea of limited citizenship is actually quite brilliant smile.gif

This post has been edited by Mudbone: Nov 6 2010, 09:45 PM


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thefireball
post Nov 6 2010, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Nov 6 2010, 03:37 PM) *
If there are no good candidates than it is very bad idea to vote for any of them.


That's a great point. smile.gif When I don't see any people worth voting for, I just don't vote. I only vote for those who I believe will help further my country for the good. wink.gif


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Mudbone
post Nov 6 2010, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Nov 6 2010, 05:34 PM) *
That's a great point. smile.gif When I don't see any people worth voting for, I just don't vote. I only vote for those who I believe will help further my country for the good. wink.gif


Vote for yourself, you seem like a cool dude with some good riffs smile.gif Imagine, fireball rocking the Senate with some drop C riffage tongue.gif


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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


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Gary
post Nov 7 2010, 07:20 AM
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[quote name='Mudbone' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:09 AM' post='504164']
Sorry dude, if someone supports Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell or Sharon Angel, they are retarded. Only a fool follows a fool. None of them have ever said anything of substance. Are you seriously going to tell me the three of them are intelligent and are capable of leading this country?..........


Mudbone,

I debated as to whether I should even respond, I have been too busy with work and I will admit I was put off by the name calling etc. Unfortunately (for me) when I hit the part about healthcare I could not help but to take the bait…so here goes.

For starters, the international viewers of this post should note the term “tea bagger” is a lewd reference that progressive liberals have assigned to tea party members. It refers to a sexual practice that is too graphic to describe here but Google it if you like. MB, I guess you will have to trust me when I say I am far from a being a prude and I am not a tea party member; however I do find this term offensive and seriously immature. I guess it’s my hope that you are a bigger man than this so let’s please keep this clean.

Upon reading your post I noticed you have an inclination for speaking in terms of absolutes, some examples:

• Neither Sarah Palin, Christine O’Donnell, or Sharon Angle have ever said anything of substance
• Tea party members are a bunch of racist rednecks
• Tea party members are pissed because a black man is president
• In America it’s okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent
• The tea party wants to rip insurance benefits out from underneath dying children

Maybe I am reading you wrong, however I am concerned that you believe anyone who differs from your opinion is either;
• Retarded
• Racist against black people
• An islamaphobe
• A mean spirited wretch who somehow derives pleasure from children suffering
That’s one hell of an interesting outlook! blink.gif

By the way, it wasn’t long ago in the US when throwing the race card at white folks who disagreed with your viewpoint was effective, but thankfully that day has passed. I think the vast majority of Americans have reached the point where they feel free to be critical of a public person, such as President Obama, and not buckle when someone screams racism. Interestingly, the tea party meeting I attended had a black couple there, and if I remember correctly one of the controlling members of the tea party is a black man. Perhaps these folks missed the memo smile.gif

You wanted to know if I would vote for one of the candidates you listed, I guess it’s possible that I would support Palin in a general election. I do believe she is shy in the intelligence area however her experience actually running something is meaningful to me (she ran the state of Alaska well, check the numbers). I’ll further admit that her willingness to smack down cronyism within her own party while serving as governor impressed me. I will tip my hat to any politician that acts in this manner as it’s a rarity these days.

You wrote “Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican”

This is a carefully crafted statement that conveniently leaves out where we are now and where we are headed. I will let the chart below speak for itself. Republicans had control over congress until 2006 and Bush held office until 2008. Look at what happens to the deficit after 2006 and looks where it’s headed. Obama created the massive debt, not Bush.

Attached Image


Your information regarding the US health care is actually what drew me in. I take issue with your statement that “Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world”" as it’s no where close to accurate. Can I ask you to provide me a source for this information? If it was from the WHO report then my recollection is that the US ranked around 40 out of about 200 countries (that is far from the "worst"). If WHO was the source then that report is widely recognized as a divisively skewed measurement of our system because the rankings were based upon offerings of socialized medicine, of which I am thankful we (wait for it….big surprise coming) do not have. I could on for days here as I have a fair amount of knowledge about our health care system. If you want to provide data and debate this further perhaps we can learn something from each other.

You asked Where were the tea party members when Bush created the DHS? I read a lot of economic papers and there were actually tons of fiscally conservative people against this. It’s easy to criticize the creation of this dept however its undeniable that it has served a purpose. Since its inception we have not suffered another internal terrorist strike from the Islamic radicals that continually threaten us. I am a seriously fiscal conservative individual, am I happy we are blowing tons of dough on this?...no. However I also am not happy that it’s probably a necessary evil in this day and age.

As for the ground zero mosque, I think any educated person in the US acknowledges the legal right to build the mosque. Perhaps more importantly, we also recognize they have the right NOT to build the mosque at that specific location. The vast majority of families of the people murdered in those towers do not want a mosque there, knowing that I question Rauf’s motives for wanting to put it there. Do you do something just because you can? I can do a lot of things that I choose not to, based on my own moral principals or concern of infringing on others feelings. My personal feeling is that Rauf is putting being a Muslim ahead of being an American, and to me that just dosen't fly.

Thanks for the offer for me to try Somalia. I live a fortunate life and done pretty well for myself in the US. I have traveled the world and seen a lot (ever been to a hospital in socialist or communist country?) and for my money nothing beats the good ole USA. And the thing is I love America pretty much the way she is. So instead of fighting the Somali pirates I will remain here and fight the “change”.

Peace,
Gary













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N4085B
post Nov 7 2010, 08:16 AM
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Here's a clip, where Yngwie sums it up pretty well. And this from a guy that immigrated to the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZiWIdgLS-Y

I was born in Germany but grew up in the states. My job takes me all over the world, and I see it first hand what its like in other countries. Great people and cultures for sure...but one common denominator is that more and bigger govt is NOT the answer....it just creates more bureaucracy/bureacrats who produce nothing...except more drag on the respective economy/society in the form of more regulation and taxation. I'm more of a Libertarian in my personal leanings ( I don't agree with everything they espouse however). I actually blame both the dems AND reps for not doing anything to try and reel in an ever expanding govt for the past 40-50 yrs. It seems that they just take turns screwing the american public and nothing really gets accomplished except the wishes of the lobbyists and attorneys. I think the Tea Party is just a reflection of that frustration....after all, the folks in Washington are supposed to work for us (we the people) not the other way around.
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kahall
post Nov 7 2010, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 6 2010, 01:33 PM) *
[..]
Actually, the Republicans at that time were the progressives. In fact the Republicans have a long streak of progressivism. Eisenhower, who built the largest highway system in the world, was a Republican. Can you imagine a conservative today proposing the same thing?

Up until 1964 the majority of the South was conservative Democrat, then blacks got their rights, and thats when the big shift to the Republican party happened.[..]


Not true. Meaning you do not know what you are talking about. Again, nice try at rewriting history, but I know you didn't actually do it yourself but read and learned that falsehood on some lefty website.


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Mudbone
post Nov 7 2010, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE (kahall @ Nov 7 2010, 08:47 AM) *
Not true. Meaning you do not know what you are talking about. Again, nice try at rewriting history, but I know you didn't actually do it yourself but read and learned that falsehood on some lefty website.


Kahall, you can't just say something is not true and not say why. It has become quite apparent your knowledge of terminology is quite limited, as you clearly do not know what the word progressive means.

So if Eisenhower wasn't a Republican, what was he? If he didn't initiate the construction of the highway system, who did?

QUOTE (N4085B @ Nov 7 2010, 03:16 AM) *
Here's a clip, where Yngwie sums it up pretty well. And this from a guy that immigrated to the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZiWIdgLS-Y

I was born in Germany but grew up in the states. My job takes me all over the world, and I see it first hand what its like in other countries. Great people and cultures for sure...but one common denominator is that more and bigger govt is NOT the answer....it just creates more bureaucracy/bureacrats who produce nothing...except more drag on the respective economy/society in the form of more regulation and taxation. I'm more of a Libertarian in my personal leanings ( I don't agree with everything they espouse however). I actually blame both the dems AND reps for not doing anything to try and reel in an ever expanding govt for the past 40-50 yrs. It seems that they just take turns screwing the american public and nothing really gets accomplished except the wishes of the lobbyists and attorneys. I think the Tea Party is just a reflection of that frustration....after all, the folks in Washington are supposed to work for us (we the people) not the other way around.


+1 I agree with just about everything you said.


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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


Gear:

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Mojo: Hammer of Odin and a pair of Ox gonads
Inspiration: Samuel Adams Boston Lager

Zero to Hero: 1,387/10,000

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