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Praetorian
post Nov 7 2010, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Gary @ Nov 7 2010, 02:20 AM) *
Mudbone,

I debated as to whether I should even respond, I have been too busy with work and I will admit I was put off by the name calling etc. Unfortunately (for me) when I hit the part about healthcare I could not help but to take the bait…so here goes.

For starters, the international viewers of this post should note the term “tea bagger” is a lewd reference that progressive liberals have assigned to tea party members. It refers to a sexual practice that is too graphic to describe here but Google it if you like. MB, I guess you will have to trust me when I say I am far from a being a prude and I am not a tea party member; however I do find this term offensive and seriously immature. I guess it’s my hope that you are a bigger man than this so let’s please keep this clean.

Upon reading your post I noticed you have an inclination for speaking in terms of absolutes, some examples:

• Neither Sarah Palin, Christine O’Donnell, or Sharon Angle have ever said anything of substance
• Tea party members are a bunch of racist rednecks
• Tea party members are pissed because a black man is president
• In America it’s okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent
• The tea party wants to rip insurance benefits out from underneath dying children

Maybe I am reading you wrong, however I am concerned that you believe anyone who differs from your opinion is either;
• Retarded
• Racist against black people
• An islamaphobe
• A mean spirited wretch who somehow derives pleasure from children suffering
That’s one hell of an interesting outlook! blink.gif

By the way, it wasn’t long ago in the US when throwing the race card at white folks who disagreed with your viewpoint was effective, but thankfully that day has passed. I think the vast majority of Americans have reached the point where they feel free to be critical of a public person, such as President Obama, and not buckle when someone screams racism. Interestingly, the tea party meeting I attended had a black couple there, and if I remember correctly one of the controlling members of the tea party is a black man. Perhaps these folks missed the memo smile.gif

You wanted to know if I would vote for one of the candidates you listed, I guess it’s possible that I would support Palin in a general election. I do believe she is shy in the intelligence area however her experience actually running something is meaningful to me (she ran the state of Alaska well, check the numbers). I’ll further admit that her willingness to smack down cronyism within her own party while serving as governor impressed me. I will tip my hat to any politician that acts in this manner as it’s a rarity these days.

You wrote “Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican”

This is a carefully crafted statement that conveniently leaves out where we are now and where we are headed. I will let the chart below speak for itself. Republicans had control over congress until 2006 and Bush held office until 2008. Look at what happens to the deficit after 2006 and looks where it’s headed. Obama created the massive debt, not Bush.

[attachment=22219:obama_bu..._deficit.jpg]


Your information regarding the US health care is actually what drew me in. I take issue with your statement that “Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world”" as it’s no where close to accurate. Can I ask you to provide me a source for this information? If it was from the WHO report then my recollection is that the US ranked around 40 out of about 200 countries (that is far from the "worst"). If WHO was the source then that report is widely recognized as a divisively skewed measurement of our system because the rankings were based upon offerings of socialized medicine, of which I am thankful we (wait for it….big surprise coming) do not have. I could on for days here as I have a fair amount of knowledge about our health care system. If you want to provide data and debate this further perhaps we can learn something from each other.

You asked Where were the tea party members when Bush created the DHS? I read a lot of economic papers and there were actually tons of fiscally conservative people against this. It’s easy to criticize the creation of this dept however its undeniable that it has served a purpose. Since its inception we have not suffered another internal terrorist strike from the Islamic radicals that continually threaten us. I am a seriously fiscal conservative individual, am I happy we are blowing tons of dough on this?...no. However I also am not happy that it’s probably a necessary evil in this day and age.

As for the ground zero mosque, I think any educated person in the US acknowledges the legal right to build the mosque. Perhaps more importantly, we also recognize they have the right NOT to build the mosque at that specific location. The vast majority of families of the people murdered in those towers do not want a mosque there, knowing that I question Rauf’s motives for wanting to put it there. Do you do something just because you can? I can do a lot of things that I choose not to, based on my own moral principals or concern of infringing on others feelings. My personal feeling is that Rauf is putting being a Muslim ahead of being an American, and to me that just dosen't fly.

Thanks for the offer for me to try Somalia. I live a fortunate life and done pretty well for myself in the US. I have traveled the world and seen a lot (ever been to a hospital in socialist or communist country?) and for my money nothing beats the good ole USA. And the thing is I love America pretty much the way she is. So instead of fighting the Somali pirates I will remain here and fight the “change”.

Peace,
Gary



Best post in this entire thread, hands down.


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jstcrsn
post Nov 7 2010, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 02:50 PM) *
Kahall, you can't just say something is not true and not say why. It has become quite apparent your knowledge of terminology is quite limited, as you clearly do not know what the word progressive means.

you can't either
you can find an opinion on both sides from something that happened that long ago,but fastforward,was it not the republicans that marched with Martin Luther King Jr.against the democrates,lead by strom thurman--who was a recruter for the kkk in the sixties
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Mudbone
post Nov 7 2010, 07:23 PM
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*Just a quick disclaimer, this will be my last post for a while, as I do not have the time to debate multiple people at once.

Gary,

Many Tea Party members called themselves tea baggers before it became widely apparent that it also has a negative connotation, and many embrace the term by affixing tea bags to their hats, so that term is fair game.

When I said Palin, O'Donnell and Angle never said anything of substance, is because they never get into specifics. They say they want to cut spending, but never say how. They espouse ideology, but never specify the implementation of such ideology.

- Not all tea party members are racists rednecks, but the majority of the ones I have come across in the South are. You live in California, not exactly a bastion of hillbillies. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is right on the border of South Carolina - This is the deep south. The demographics here are a little different than in California. California is multicultural, so people are less likely to be racist. Other than in the heart of Charlotte, there isn't much diversity here. Many southerners have a low opinion of EVERYBODY, included northerners and people from the west coast. Come live here for a few months and I dare you to tell me otherwise.

- Tea Party members are pissed that a black man is president, just look at the signs they carry at their rallies, "Down with the Kenyan" "Obama is a foreigner" "No to Kenyan Economics" and so on and so forth.

- In America it is totally acceptable to be racist towards Middle Eastern decent. People always joke to Arabs, "You're not gonna blow us up are you?" Or they mock the Arabic language by making guttural sounds. Can you imagine if you walked up to one of your black friends and said, "You're not going to rob me are you?" Or starting to talk in Ebonics?

At one of John McCain's rallies someone shouted, "He's a Muslim!" referring to Obama of course. To which McCain replied, "No he isn't, he's a good person." Can't a Muslim be a good person? Just imagine if that guy screamed "Obama's a Jew" You would never hear the end of McCain's apologies. If you decide to answer anything from this post, answer this: Do you think its okay for a Muslim to be president?

Then of course, there are the movies and tv shows. For decades Arabs have been vilified and demonized. Check out this video by Jack Shaheen called "Real Bad Arabs"

- The Tea Party opposed the whole healthcare bill, which included the parts that were intended to protect children. NOT ONE Tea Party candidate ever argued in favor of fixing things in our healthcare system that were harmful towards children. So, they were against all of it, and were for absolutely none of it.

Your use of ad hominem is quite astounding. Just because I have a low opinion of the Tea Party doesn't mean I have a low opinion of everybody. If you want diminish to my arguments you're going to have to find a better of doing it other than just writing me off as person that just hates everybody and everything. Just because I said Tea Party candidates are against laws protecting children doesn't mean I think they're bloodthirsty witches. Again, another overzealous use of ad hominem on your part.

I never used the race card with people I disagree with, I called a particular movement racist. This also another use of ad hominem on your part. There may be a few black people in the Tea Party, but I think we can both agree that the vast majority of the Tea Party is white. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is hardly representative of the country as a whole.

Well I'm glad we can agree that Palin is lacking intelligence smile.gif But she wasn't exactly the greatest governor. She cut and run just after two years in office. When things started to get tough on her she resigned, not something a good leader would do. Plus Alaska is a pretty easy state to run. Only 500,000 people live there and revenue from oil pays for everything. People in Alaska actually get paid by the government to live there. The only thing she had to do was not mess things up, and she couldn't even handle that. She also resigned because the millions shes making now would have conflicted with her role as governor. I'm not knocking her for going for the money, in fact I would probably do the same thing. But is a clear sign she is just after the money and is in no way shape or form fit to be the leader of the free world. The president of the United States MUST know geography, as we have bases and interests all over the world. Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite before the Iraq war, and look how catastrophic that lack of knowledge turned out to be.

As far as the deficit, you and I may not be on the same yard line, but we're in the same field, so I don't feel the need to address this.

Its funny how your disagreement with me about healthcare actually agrees with what I said. I said our healthcare system ranks lowest in the industrialized world, and you said it ranks 40 out of the total 200 countries in the world, which still makes both of our statements factually correct. This is because not all countries in the world are industrialized. Compared to other advanced countries, we rank close to the bottom. I'm not saying the actual care that administered is bad, I'm talking about the whole system and how effective it is at keep all Americans healthy. Also, you can't dismiss socialized healthcare if its effective. There are many Germans on this website and I'm sure they can tell you that while their healthcare system may not be perfect, it works a lot better than what we got here. I'm quite sure their system is a hybrid of private and social healthcare, if any Germans are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Just because something is socialized doesn't make it bad per se. One more thing, Sharon Angle, the anti-government-healthcare candidate, gets her health care from... are you ready for this... the Federal Employee Health Program, provided courtesy of the Federal Government. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

There were fiscal conservatives that were against the DHS, that is true, but they weren't the Tea Party. (Just to clear something up real quick, my beef isn't with fiscal conservatism, in fact I hold moderate fiscal conservative views.) You know what would save an enormous amount of money by cutting spending? Ending wars, and ending support for Middle Eastern dictators and Israel. This is where I agree with Ron Paul 100%. We will spend less and give no reason for terrorist to come over here and blow things up. But this is something you never hear from conservatives.

The ground zero mosque isn't even going to be a mosque, its a cultural center that will have a prayer room. But even if it was a mosque, there is nothing objectionable to having one there. Not all Muslims are terrorists, in fact the vast majority are peaceful people like you or me. Muslim Americans also died in the 9/11 attacks as well, are they less human than everyone else? By telling specific Muslims they can't build a mosque there is accusing them of having ties to terrorists, that is unfair.

Anyways Gary, I can tell you spent time doing research into these things, instead of just following what you are told. You and I may have fundamental differences, But I hope you don't take my scorn for the Tea Party as a whole too personally. You seem like a respectable gentleman, hopefully you and will get along in something else we're both passionate about: Guitars smile.gif



QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 7 2010, 11:20 AM) *
you can't either
you can find an opinion on both sides from something that happened that long ago,but fastforward,was it not the republicans that marched with Martin Luther King Jr.against the democrates,lead by strom thurman--who was a recruter for the kkk in the sixties


I didn't say something was false but not say why, i don't know where you're getting that from.

What I said isn't opinion, its fact. I said which people belonged to what party, there is nothing opinionated about that. If you read my post closely you would have seen that I mentioned that the Democrats were conservative up until 1964, and those conservatives did include the likes of Strom Thurman. Up until the last two decades, the Republicans were a respectable party, but not anymore.


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Gitarrero
post Nov 7 2010, 07:39 PM
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Just wanted to tell you that you were right about the german healthcare system smile.gif
It is not perfect, then again, which system is?
I already said it, but it is incredibly interesting to read all you guys' comments and opinions. I just wanna remind you that you shouldn't take political views too seriously on this website, let's all try to get along as that what we are here: guitar enthusiasts.

Christian

This post has been edited by Gitarrero: Nov 7 2010, 07:40 PM


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Mudbone
post Nov 7 2010, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Nov 7 2010, 02:39 PM) *
Just wanted to tell you that you were right about the german healthcare system smile.gif
It is not perfect, then again, which system is?
I already said it, but it is incredibly interesting to read all you guys' comments and opinions. I just wanna remind you that you shouldn't take political views too seriously on this website, let's all try to get along as that what we are here: guitar enthusiasts.

Christian


Thanks Christian smile.gif You're right, this is a guitar website, we come on here to get away from life for a moment.


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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


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jstcrsn
post Nov 7 2010, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 08:06 PM) *
Thanks Christian smile.gif You're right, this is a guitar website, we come on here to get away from life for a moment.

if we are ranked forty in the world in health care, why then do people travel to the us for health care .
the studies you cite are tainted
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kahall
post Nov 7 2010, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 07:50 AM) *
Kahall, you can't just say something is not true and not say why. It has become quite apparent your knowledge of terminology is quite limited, as you clearly do not know what the word progressive means.

So if Eisenhower wasn't a Republican, what was he? If he didn't initiate the construction of the highway system, who did?

First. I can do whatever I like.

I absolutely know what the word progressive means. I have been following politics since my forebears evolved from Precambrian slime mold in a Gondwana tide pool.

I was not denying Eisenhower being a republican.
but this:
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 07:50 AM) *
Up until 1964 the majority of the South was conservative Democrat, then blacks got their rights, and thats when the big shift to the Republican party happened.[..]


That is nothing but revisionist history from unicorn land.

I went back and re-read some of your posts. They are straight out of Daily KOS, Democraticunderground and other bottom feeder sewer type sites. You can't post that hatred on site like this with intelligent people observing and not get called out on it by more than one person.






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Mudbone
post Nov 7 2010, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (kahall @ Nov 7 2010, 04:46 PM) *
First. I can do whatever I like.

I absolutely know what the word progressive means. I have been following politics since my forebears evolved from Precambrian slime mold in a Gondwana tide pool.

I was not denying Eisenhower being a republican.
but this:


That is nothing but revisionist history from unicorn land.

I went back and re-read some of your posts. They are straight out of Daily KOS, Democraticunderground and other bottom feeder sewer type sites. You can't post that hatred on site like this with intelligent people observing and not get called out on it by more than one person.


You have yet to say how I am wrong about anything, you just say I'm wrong I'm and then dismiss me a damn liberal. If thats what you like to then do it to your hearts content, just nobody is going to take you seriously.

And by the way, I have never been to any of those sites. I am fully capable of forming my own opinions on things.


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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


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jstcrsn
post Nov 7 2010, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 10:33 PM) *
You have yet to say how I am wrong about anything, you just say I'm wrong I'm and then dismiss me a damn liberal. If thats what you like to then do it to your hearts content, just nobody is going to take you seriously.

And by the way, I have never been to any of those sites. I am fully capable of forming my own opinions on things.

then were did you get your facts,,if it is reputible ,i can read with an open mind

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 7 2010, 11:28 PM) *
then were did you get your facts,,if it is reputible ,i can read with an open mind



what doyou guys think about these items
1 significantly cut government spending
2 stop all tax increases
3 defend our nation's security and stop bowing to foreign dictators
4 put in elected officials that will reign in government abuses in all branches of government
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Mudbone
post Nov 7 2010, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 7 2010, 05:28 PM) *
then were did you get your facts,,if it is reputible ,i can read with an open mind


I don't read too many US based news sites, because I feel they all have a horse in this race, be it liberal or conservative. The few that I do read are pretty much middle of the road, like Newsweek and McClatchy.

The international sites I frequent are the British newspapers The Guardian and The Telegraph and also the BBC. Every now and then I read news on the Canadian CBC.


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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


Gear:

Guitars: Uncle Rufus' Twanger Classic
Amps: Mississippi Boom Box
Mojo: Hammer of Odin and a pair of Ox gonads
Inspiration: Samuel Adams Boston Lager

Zero to Hero: 1,387/10,000

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jstcrsn
post Nov 8 2010, 02:15 AM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 11:56 PM) *
I don't read too many US based news sites, because I feel they all have a horse in this race, be it liberal or conservative. The few that I do read are pretty much middle of the road, like Newsweek and McClatchy.

The international sites I frequent are the British newspapers The Guardian and The Telegraph and also the BBC. Every now and then I read news on the Canadian CBC.

Mudbone---please feel free to p.m. any links where you get your info
I will read with an open mind , but realize that i have been a registered independant for ten years and lean a lot towards liberterian moto "When in doubt-side towards freedom".I am not interested in someones opinion,i like just the fax maam ,such as ,a reason Obama concerns me is that he said that if we don't pass his stimulus that unemployement will rise above 9 and if we do pass it it will stay under 8.
remember the facts ,so why has he not been made to answer this question as unemployement has been around 10 percent .also there is still , 400 billion in the stimulus not spent , seeing how every dollar the government spends 40 percent is borrowed -from my kids and yours
and still from the white house----nothing and i think this is what the elections were about i did not vote republican for there past plans i voted for new republicans with the message to bring this government spending to a halt, and if they don't , i will vote them out . my plan is to keep changing government till they get the idea
In a earlier thread you said that there will never be a perfect health care system and you are right , but that does not make it right to take costitutional freedoms away from people to do it
i encourage you -if you do have an open mind to visit http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=New...news_iv_ctrl=-1 as this is the only way to get the power away from washington and deliver it back to the people where it belongs
peace
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Karl-ss
post Nov 8 2010, 05:00 AM
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All I have to say is Socialism and it's cousins. It works, look at Norway.. Nuff said. Also don't worry I wont use nazi germany even if they had a excel- *rest of comment removed due to PC liberals controlling the interwebs*.. But ya, Liberals, republicans.. They are both utterly backwards and awkward as *Insert rude word*. But again, these americans are so whiny about their taxes.. No taxes eh? Well that just means a few people will live filthy rich and the rest on the streets. But thats aaawright! Because thats the way of nature.. Evolution eh? Also inb4 the whole "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND" It is 5 at night here and I am feeling silly.. Oh and I like high taxes. :3

QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 7 2010, 08:23 PM) *
*Just a quick disclaimer, this will be my last post for a while, as I do not have the time to debate multiple people at once.

Gary,

Many Tea Party members called themselves tea baggers before it became widely apparent that it also has a negative connotation, and many embrace the term by affixing tea bags to their hats, so that term is fair game.

When I said Palin, O'Donnell and Angle never said anything of substance, is because they never get into specifics. They say they want to cut spending, but never say how. They espouse ideology, but never specify the implementation of such ideology.

- Not all tea party members are racists rednecks, but the majority of the ones I have come across in the South are. You live in California, not exactly a bastion of hillbillies. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is right on the border of South Carolina - This is the deep south. The demographics here are a little different than in California. California is multicultural, so people are less likely to be racist. Other than in the heart of Charlotte, there isn't much diversity here. Many southerners have a low opinion of EVERYBODY, included northerners and people from the west coast. Come live here for a few months and I dare you to tell me otherwise.

- Tea Party members are pissed that a black man is president, just look at the signs they carry at their rallies, "Down with the Kenyan" "Obama is a foreigner" "No to Kenyan Economics" and so on and so forth.

- In America it is totally acceptable to be racist towards Middle Eastern decent. People always joke to Arabs, "You're not gonna blow us up are you?" Or they mock the Arabic language by making guttural sounds. Can you imagine if you walked up to one of your black friends and said, "You're not going to rob me are you?" Or starting to talk in Ebonics?

At one of John McCain's rallies someone shouted, "He's a Muslim!" referring to Obama of course. To which McCain replied, "No he isn't, he's a good person." Can't a Muslim be a good person? Just imagine if that guy screamed "Obama's a Jew" You would never hear the end of McCain's apologies. If you decide to answer anything from this post, answer this: Do you think its okay for a Muslim to be president?

Then of course, there are the movies and tv shows. For decades Arabs have been vilified and demonized. Check out this video by Jack Shaheen called "Real Bad Arabs"

- The Tea Party opposed the whole healthcare bill, which included the parts that were intended to protect children. NOT ONE Tea Party candidate ever argued in favor of fixing things in our healthcare system that were harmful towards children. So, they were against all of it, and were for absolutely none of it.

Your use of ad hominem is quite astounding. Just because I have a low opinion of the Tea Party doesn't mean I have a low opinion of everybody. If you want diminish to my arguments you're going to have to find a better of doing it other than just writing me off as person that just hates everybody and everything. Just because I said Tea Party candidates are against laws protecting children doesn't mean I think they're bloodthirsty witches. Again, another overzealous use of ad hominem on your part.

I never used the race card with people I disagree with, I called a particular movement racist. This also another use of ad hominem on your part. There may be a few black people in the Tea Party, but I think we can both agree that the vast majority of the Tea Party is white. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is hardly representative of the country as a whole.

Well I'm glad we can agree that Palin is lacking intelligence smile.gif But she wasn't exactly the greatest governor. She cut and run just after two years in office. When things started to get tough on her she resigned, not something a good leader would do. Plus Alaska is a pretty easy state to run. Only 500,000 people live there and revenue from oil pays for everything. People in Alaska actually get paid by the government to live there. The only thing she had to do was not mess things up, and she couldn't even handle that. She also resigned because the millions shes making now would have conflicted with her role as governor. I'm not knocking her for going for the money, in fact I would probably do the same thing. But is a clear sign she is just after the money and is in no way shape or form fit to be the leader of the free world. The president of the United States MUST know geography, as we have bases and interests all over the world. Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite before the Iraq war, and look how catastrophic that lack of knowledge turned out to be.

As far as the deficit, you and I may not be on the same yard line, but we're in the same field, so I don't feel the need to address this.

Its funny how your disagreement with me about healthcare actually agrees with what I said. I said our healthcare system ranks lowest in the industrialized world, and you said it ranks 40 out of the total 200 countries in the world, which still makes both of our statements factually correct. This is because not all countries in the world are industrialized. Compared to other advanced countries, we rank close to the bottom. I'm not saying the actual care that administered is bad, I'm talking about the whole system and how effective it is at keep all Americans healthy. Also, you can't dismiss socialized healthcare if its effective. There are many Germans on this website and I'm sure they can tell you that while their healthcare system may not be perfect, it works a lot better than what we got here. I'm quite sure their system is a hybrid of private and social healthcare, if any Germans are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Just because something is socialized doesn't make it bad per se. One more thing, Sharon Angle, the anti-government-healthcare candidate, gets her health care from... are you ready for this... the Federal Employee Health Program, provided courtesy of the Federal Government. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

There were fiscal conservatives that were against the DHS, that is true, but they weren't the Tea Party. (Just to clear something up real quick, my beef isn't with fiscal conservatism, in fact I hold moderate fiscal conservative views.) You know what would save an enormous amount of money by cutting spending? Ending wars, and ending support for Middle Eastern dictators and Israel. This is where I agree with Ron Paul 100%. We will spend less and give no reason for terrorist to come over here and blow things up. But this is something you never hear from conservatives.

The ground zero mosque isn't even going to be a mosque, its a cultural center that will have a prayer room. But even if it was a mosque, there is nothing objectionable to having one there. Not all Muslims are terrorists, in fact the vast majority are peaceful people like you or me. Muslim Americans also died in the 9/11 attacks as well, are they less human than everyone else? By telling specific Muslims they can't build a mosque there is accusing them of having ties to terrorists, that is unfair.

Anyways Gary, I can tell you spent time doing research into these things, instead of just following what you are told. You and I may have fundamental differences, But I hope you don't take my scorn for the Tea Party as a whole too personally. You seem like a respectable gentleman, hopefully you and will get along in something else we're both passionate about: Guitars smile.gif





I didn't say something was false but not say why, i don't know where you're getting that from.

What I said isn't opinion, its fact. I said which people belonged to what party, there is nothing opinionated about that. If you read my post closely you would have seen that I mentioned that the Democrats were conservative up until 1964, and those conservatives did include the likes of Strom Thurman. Up until the last two decades, the Republicans were a respectable party, but not anymore.


I'm not German, but Norway is a Socio-Liberal heaven when it comes to healthcare :3. Why socialized healthcare isn't a must have for any industrialized country by now is beyond me.

This post has been edited by Karl-ss: Nov 8 2010, 04:56 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 8 2010, 06:46 AM
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Wow. What a thread eh? I must say that for me the whole thing boils down to the fact that we have 10 percent long term unemployment and 2 percent forward looking growth and a massive debt load that we can't sustain. Being a libertarian I've got issues with just about every "party" but that's neither here nor there. Bottom line, we have got to do things that are not pretty

1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)

All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.

Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small. smile.gif

Todd


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Mudbone
post Nov 8 2010, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 8 2010, 12:46 AM) *
Wow. What a thread eh? I must say that for me the whole thing boils down to the fact that we have 10 percent long term unemployment and 2 percent forward looking growth and a massive debt load that we can't sustain. Being a libertarian I've got issues with just about every "party" but that's neither here nor there. Bottom line, we have got to do things that are not pretty

1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)

All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.

Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small. smile.gif

Todd


Finally, a voice of reason smile.gif Todd, you're awesome dude, you nailed it. Sometimes reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody wants to pay more taxes - I certainly don't - but these two wars that have cost more than a trillion dollars have to be paid for.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 7 2010, 08:15 PM) *
Mudbone---please feel free to p.m. any links where you get your info
I will read with an open mind , but realize that i have been a registered independant for ten years and lean a lot towards liberterian moto "When in doubt-side towards freedom".I am not interested in someones opinion,i like just the fax maam ,such as ,a reason Obama concerns me is that he said that if we don't pass his stimulus that unemployement will rise above 9 and if we do pass it it will stay under 8.
remember the facts ,so why has he not been made to answer this question as unemployement has been around 10 percent .also there is still , 400 billion in the stimulus not spent , seeing how every dollar the government spends 40 percent is borrowed -from my kids and yours
and still from the white house----nothing and i think this is what the elections were about i did not vote republican for there past plans i voted for new republicans with the message to bring this government spending to a halt, and if they don't , i will vote them out . my plan is to keep changing government till they get the idea
In a earlier thread you said that there will never be a perfect health care system and you are right , but that does not make it right to take costitutional freedoms away from people to do it
i encourage you -if you do have an open mind to visit http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=New...news_iv_ctrl=-1 as this is the only way to get the power away from washington and deliver it back to the people where it belongs
peace


Is there anything specific you would like to me to send you?

I'm glad you're an independent and not aligned to any particular party or ideology, that leaves you free to choose your own ideology, instead of being coerced into believing a certain ideology. No ideology is one hundred percent correct, and being independent allows you to pick and choose what you think is right.


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Marek Rojewski
post Nov 8 2010, 08:22 AM
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Karl-ss - ask Your grandparents how havenly was Norway 80 year ago. Without a free market working there for few very important years, specific time in history when countries got money for "rebuilding after the war and because USRR was near" and most importantly without oil deposits, socialism in Norway would never work. Of course it is a big thing on it's own to be a socialistic country and still make profit out of anything, but thankfully Scandinavians are the most responsible spenders there are. In fact there is no other place in the world where this system works. But from what I read and what I heard from Danes and Swedes I know (unfortunately no Norwegians) both countries leans a little to the right side and has more and more problems because of the huge public sector.


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brandon
post Nov 8 2010, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (Gary @ Nov 3 2010, 12:30 AM) *
Well Joe is far from an academic scholar.. graduated 65th in a class of 86. He is also a career politician, basically spent his entire working life on the public payroll. I don't particularly dislike Biden however I think he represents exactly what this country has had enough of.


So you're against career politicians? So that would mean you're against all the Bush's, McCain, Biden, and Gore , and that you're for Obama, Palin, and John Edwards, correct?
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Gary
post Nov 9 2010, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (brandon @ Nov 8 2010, 11:29 PM) *
So you're against career politicians? So that would mean you're against all the Bush's, McCain, Biden, and Gore , and that you're for Obama, Palin, and John Edwards, correct?



Ooops.. my bad. I forgot to add in the narcissistic trial lawyer disclaimer biggrin.gif
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kaznie_NL
post Nov 9 2010, 06:34 PM
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I recently watched Michael Moore's documentary for anyone willing to be informed about the American and European Socal Securty systems. It's a great watch, very funny, but also very informative. Fun to watch for Europeans (or Cubans tongue.gif), but I guess IMPORTANT to watch for Americans!


sorry if this is to far off topic, but it kidna gets back to my earlier statement of us Dutch people (European overall) have a hard time understanding Americans.


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Gary
post Nov 9 2010, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Nov 9 2010, 06:34 PM) *
I recently watched Michael Moore's documentary for anyone willing to be informed about the American and European Socal Securty systems. It's a great watch, very funny, but also very informative. Fun to watch for Europeans (or Cubans tongue.gif), but I guess IMPORTANT to watch for Americans!


sorry if this is to far off topic, but it kidna gets back to my earlier statement of us Dutch people (European overall) have a hard time understanding Americans.



Kaznie,

You will have a terrible time understanding America if you are putting stock in information disseminated from a Michael Moore documentary. Mr. Moore is widely known for being extremely gifted at twisting facts and bending truths to meet his own agenda. Note my feelings on him are not polictically based, just google him and you will see much of the information he presents is inaccurate. You would do much better to take your information from a middle of the road, fact based source as opposed to someone like Michael Moore.
Gary

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 8 2010, 06:46 AM) *
Wow. What a thread eh? I must say that for me the whole thing boils down to the fact that we have 10 percent long term unemployment and 2 percent forward looking growth and a massive debt load that we can't sustain. Being a libertarian I've got issues with just about every "party" but that's neither here nor there. Bottom line, we have got to do things that are not pretty

1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)

All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.

Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small. smile.gif

Todd


Hi Todd,

Note the current administration is taking a completely different approach, they are attempting to inflate our way out of this mess. The printing press is in full power mode creating tons of fiat money out of thin air and flooding it into our economy. This is hardly a creative solution to our economic problems and it has the potential to impart some very dark consequences. QE2 is a very dangerous attempt at a solution for numerous bad decisions that were made over many years. It it causes me to believe that we must be in worse economic shape than is being lead on. America needs to be put on a spending diet, plain and simple.

Gary

This post has been edited by Gary: Nov 9 2010, 10:06 PM
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kaznie_NL
post Nov 9 2010, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Gary @ Nov 9 2010, 10:05 PM) *
Kaznie,

You will have a terrible time understanding America if you are putting stock in information disseminated from a Michael Moore documentary. Mr. Moore is widely known for being extremely gifted at twisting facts and bending truths to meet his own agenda. Note my feelings on him are not polictically based, just google him and you will see much of the information he presents is inaccurate. You would do much better to take your information from a middle of the road, fact based source as opposed to someone like Michael Moore.
Gary

One of IMO the best skills of Dutch people is our never ending 'own' look on things. If Michael Moore screams things out on the screen, we still go thinking, hmmm what of that would be true, what won't. I guess he does quite some twisting facts and figures to make more money in his documentaries, but there are some facts that can't be twisted. Like the fact that hospitals and medicins in America cost poor people lots of money!

I didn't intend going into a political discussion, as I said, I haven't got enough information about how things go in the US, so I can't judge them properly. Since my only 'input' on the subject were some vague memories and a Michael Moore documentary, you're right: I shouldn't make any hard conclusions. But I do believe it's possible to filther some truths out of the little input.

I still ask you to watch it, and tell me what you think of it. Try to watch unbiased, although it's very hard. Then tell me, are the US having a good social system? Better then Europe at least?

It was actually only intended to show how different our mentality is/was, but this might result in some interesting debate wink.gif

thanks for answering smile.gif


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