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> It's Election Day In The Usa
jstcrsn
post Nov 9 2010, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Nov 9 2010, 10:28 PM) *
One of IMO the best skills of Dutch people is our never ending 'own' look on things. If Michael Moore screams things out on the screen, we still go thinking, hmmm what of that would be true, what won't. I guess he does quite some twisting facts and figures to make more money in his documentaries, but there are some facts that can't be twisted. Like the fact that hospitals and medicins in America cost poor people lots of money!

I didn't intend going into a political discussion, as I said, I haven't got enough information about how things go in the US, so I can't judge them properly. Since my only 'input' on the subject were some vague memories and a Michael Moore documentary, you're right: I shouldn't make any hard conclusions. But I do believe it's possible to filther some truths out of the little input.

I still ask you to watch it, and tell me what you think of it. Try to watch unbiased, although it's very hard. Then tell me, are the US having a good social system? Better then Europe at least?

It was actually only intended to show how different our mentality is/was, but this might result in some interesting debate wink.gif

thanks for answering smile.gif


We have very little social system in America , that is the way our founders intended--the government to stay out of the way
as far as the poor not being able to afford health care-there ar e 10 million so called poor that do not enroll for the health care they could get for free
it is illegal for the emergency room to turn away anyone who needs care, even illegals that don't pay taxes to help cover that burden so the middle class get hit
one qeustion that will clear a lot of things up is, do people go to the US to get health care when their coutry takes to long --or do they go to the so called
wonderful sociol programs that is in mr. moore's film
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Todd Simpson
post Nov 10 2010, 01:53 AM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Nov 8 2010, 02:23 AM) *
Finally, a voice of reason smile.gif Todd, you're awesome dude, you nailed it. Sometimes reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody wants to pay more taxes - I certainly don't - but these two wars that have cost more than a trillion dollars have to be paid for.


Thanks Mudbone smile.gif I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's easy to get sucked in to a partisan flame war with issues this close to the bone. It's good to see folks step back a bit and talk in a rational way. We really are up against the wall, so to speak, but we have always managed to work it out in the past. That's no guarantee of course, but innovation and creativity have long been at the core of the economy in the U.S. (as well as a bit of sword rattling depending on who you ask) so I'm hopeful for the future, but I remain concerned. Our current path is simply not one we can sustain. The voting public will have to embrace the pain of loss and "doing with less", and a "lower normal" for perhaps entire generation unless we can pull a miracle out of our pocket. The good news is, Miracles happen. Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. There are great companies here leading the charge on growth, creating wealth and not destroying the earth that sustains us.

We have a long road ahead. But I"m not yet ready to say our best days are behind us.

Todd


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Mudbone
post Nov 10 2010, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 9 2010, 07:53 PM) *
Thanks Mudbone smile.gif I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's easy to get sucked in to a partisan flame war with issues this close to the bone. It's good to see folks step back a bit and talk in a rational way. We really are up against the wall, so to speak, but we have always managed to work it out in the past. That's no guarantee of course, but innovation and creativity have long been at the core of the economy in the U.S. (as well as a bit of sword rattling depending on who you ask) so I'm hopeful for the future, but I remain concerned. Our current path is simply not one we can sustain. The voting public will have to embrace the pain of loss and "doing with less", and a "lower normal" for perhaps entire generation unless we can pull a miracle out of our pocket. The good news is, Miracles happen. Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. There are great companies here leading the charge on growth, creating wealth and not destroying the earth that sustains us.

We have a long road ahead. But I"m not yet ready to say our best days are behind us.

Todd


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kaznie_NL
post Nov 11 2010, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 8 2010, 06:46 AM) *
1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)

Todd, this is reasoning, and this is good tongue.gif IMO this is exactly how politics should be. You can't be happy all the time, there are down and up sides to everything. You show how you don't like spending more, but it's the only way: rational biggrin.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 9 2010, 10:48 PM) *
We have very little social system in America , that is the way our founders intended--the government to stay out of the way
as far as the poor not being able to afford health care-there ar e 10 million so called poor that do not enroll for the health care they could get for free
it is illegal for the emergency room to turn away anyone who needs care, even illegals that don't pay taxes to help cover that burden so the middle class get hit
one qeustion that will clear a lot of things up is, do people go to the US to get health care when their coutry takes to long --or do they go to the so called
wonderful sociol programs that is in mr. moore's film

Sorry, but I don't exactly get your point. You set the question: Do people (US citizens??) go to US health care when their own healthcare takes to long.... Ok, I gues you d'nt mean US citizens. Then you'd mean non-US people? People here in Europe for instance (non-US) never have to wait because their health care takes to long. If they do have money and want an even quicker result, they can go to a private clinic.

I probably didn't answer your question, because I don't understand it fully wink.gif


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Praetorian
post Nov 11 2010, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Nov 11 2010, 10:21 AM) *
Todd, this is reasoning, and this is good tongue.gif IMO this is exactly how politics should be. You can't be happy all the time, there are down and up sides to everything. You show how you don't like spending more, but it's the only way: rational biggrin.gif


Sorry, but I don't exactly get your point. You set the question: Do people (US citizens??) go to US health care when their own healthcare takes to long.... Ok, I gues you d'nt mean US citizens. Then you'd mean non-US people? People here in Europe for instance (non-US) never have to wait because their health care takes to long. If they do have money and want an even quicker result, they can go to a private clinic.

I probably didn't answer your question, because I don't understand it fully wink.gif


I think he meant that Canadians mostly, will come to the US for medical care, because it takes too long in Canada to get treatment. My uncle is an American, who lives in Canada. He comes to the US for ALL his medical needs. He said that he could make an appointment to see a doctor in Canada...and they won't be able to see him for a year sometimes!

I don't know what the ultimate "answer" is to health care...but total socialization of the system does NOT work.


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kaznie_NL
post Nov 11 2010, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Praetorian @ Nov 11 2010, 04:28 PM) *
I think he meant that Canadians mostly, will come to the US for medical care, because it takes too long in Canada to get treatment. My uncle is an American, who lives in Canada. He comes to the US for ALL his medical needs. He said that he could make an appointment to see a doctor in Canada...and they won't be able to see him for a year sometimes!

I don't know what the ultimate "answer" is to health care...but total socialization of the system does NOT work.

Here in NL it DOES work.

Maybe the word 'total' is an exegeration (spelling... tongue.gif ). Here everybody has a basic social securty. It includes all basic care, like dental care, all hospital care etc. Then you can add more, but it'll cost more, like orthodoncy (is that English? tongue.gif I mean the dental specialist in braces. They're seen as 'luxury' items.

this system WORKS and pleae don't say it doesn't wink.gif


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brandon
post Nov 11 2010, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Nov 11 2010, 10:59 AM) *
Here in NL it DOES work.

Maybe the word 'total' is an exegeration (spelling... tongue.gif ). Here everybody has a basic social securty. It includes all basic care, like dental care, all hospital care etc. Then you can add more, but it'll cost more, like orthodoncy (is that English? tongue.gif I mean the dental specialist in braces. They're seen as 'luxury' items.

this system WORKS and pleae don't say it doesn't wink.gif


I'm an American and I wish we could have more of a social healthcare system. I live in the southeasthern US where there isn't a lot of money, so I know a lot of people who actually can't afford healthcare. I've even had to go without it myself for several years when I had to decide between either buying food and paying rent or getting insurance. Sure there are people who choose not to get insurance, but the majority of people without it probably just can't afford it. I think our system is completely flawed. We have some great hospitals and some amazing doctors/specialists, but no one can afford to see them. I have health insurance and honestly I don't feel like I'm covered....at least not if something bad were to happen. Sure I get to go to doctor for minor ailments and I get to go to the dentist every six months for a cleaning, but if I were to get really sick I don't think I would be able to afford it. I've had friends get cancer and their insurance companies immediately raise their rates, refuse to cover procedures the doctors are telling them are necessary, and try their best to drop them.....and guess what, as soon as they get too sick to work anymore the insurance companies drop them...and that's after they've already exhausted all of their savings trying to keep themselves alive. So I know this thread has been going on for a while and it's been argument back and forth about whether the US healthcare system works or not.....and honestly if that question even needs to be asked then obviously IT DOES NOT WORK!! I would love to have socialized medicine, but to be completely honest I don't think it would work in the US. This country is too large and I think a lot of money would disappear in to peoples pockets the further it moves away from DC. I do, however, think a system like was described before would be good for the US. If there was basic healthcare that everyone was entitled to and then if you wanted better healthcare or some of the other bells and whistles you could pay for that. Contrary to popular belief emergency rooms would be less crowded because all of the people who don't have insurance that show up with things like poison ivy would actually be able to see a family doctor instead. Makes sense to me, but I know how Americans tend to be very bull headed and prideful. But by being stubborn we're only hurting ourselves.
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 12 2010, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (brandon @ Nov 11 2010, 09:42 PM) *
...I've had friends get cancer and their insurance companies immediately raise their rates, refuse to cover procedures the doctors are telling them are necessary, and try their best to drop them.....and guess what, as soon as they get too sick to work anymore the insurance companies drop them...and that's after they've already exhausted all of their savings trying to keep themselves alive. ...


I empathise with them Brandon.

I'm lucky enough to live in Europe and so have access to state medical care. I also have a notifiable, regressive terminal illness. No medical insurance company will provide me with policy cover because the cost of treatment for me rapidly increases. I had medical insurance some years ago but it was canceled by the insurance company when I was diagnosed.


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