Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Lydian And Mixolydian Shapes (position 4 And 5)
nawak
post Jan 22 2011, 07:41 PM
Post #1


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 24-June 09
From: Paris
Member No.: 7.323



Just looking at 2 different guitar methods, I am a bit intrigued because it looks like the Lydian and Mixolydian shapes can have their notes played exactly in the same order in position 4 and position 5 so those 2 shapes can actually be "combined" to become one, depending on whether you play those shapes in the "3 notes per string" fashion or not ...

Here is what I mean, let's take the key of C major for example:

- 3 notes per string shape for F Lydian fingering (position 4):

---------3--------5--------7---------
---------3--------5----6---------
----2--------4---5---------
----2---3--------5--------
----2---3--------5---------
1-------3--------5-----------

- 3 notes per string shape for G Mixolydian fingering (position 5):

---------5---------7---8---
---------5----6--------8---
----4----5--------7-------
3--------5--------7-------
3--------5--------7-------
3--------5--------7-------

Now here is another fingering from another guitar method that combines position 4 and position 5 (thus giving us only one shape for both, instead of 2):

------3---------5--------
------3---------5----6---
2---------4-----5-------
2----3----------5-------
2----3----------5-------
-----3----------5-------

How is that possible?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sollesnes
post Feb 11 2011, 02:05 PM
Post #2


Learning Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.940
Joined: 18-January 09
Member No.: 6.623



Shapes are no fixed thing. The modes only means putting different notes as the rootnotes. You should never play only one mode in each position. The positions are different anywhere you look, because it is all based on personal preference. The point of practicing positions are simply to know where various notes are according to the root notes you designate to your scale. That is why you can have any mode in every position. You just put a different note as the root.
The worst thing you can do when you are learning positions, are to let them limit you. I recommend you to make the positions yourself. If you are in C major, start on C and move up the scale the way you find comfortable. Then start in D, etc. smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ben Higgins
post Feb 11 2011, 07:51 PM
Post #3


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 13.788
Joined: 11-March 10
From: England
Member No.: 9.820



Yes, Sollesnes is right. Some modes share the same notes but their names change according to where the root note starts. The 3rd tab example would normally be referred to as G Mixolydian because it starts on the G.. but yes it does have the same notes as F Lydian and C Major.

It's just like the relative Major and relative Minor situation. The D Major scale shares notes with B minor for example. Weird isn't it ? But you always name according to where the root note is. smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nawak
post Feb 11 2011, 09:42 PM
Post #4


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 24-June 09
From: Paris
Member No.: 7.323



QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Feb 11 2011, 06:51 PM) *
Yes, Sollesnes is right. Some modes share the same notes but their names change according to where the root note starts. The 3rd tab example would normally be referred to as G Mixolydian because it starts on the G.. but yes it does have the same notes as F Lydian and C Major.

It's just like the relative Major and relative Minor situation. The D Major scale shares notes with B minor for example. Weird isn't it ? But you always name according to where the root note is. smile.gif



Thanks a lot guys, this is all a lot clearer to me now! smile.gif

Talking about modes, I still have a few questions:

1 - Just to make sure my understanding is correct: if I hear a chord progression in the key of C major and I want to sound "Lydian", what I would have to do is play the F Lydian scale, and that would be the only way to sound "Lydian", correct?

2 - I find it extremely difficult not to think of the low E string to find out where the root notes are, and also not to think in terms of "positions" to find myself on the fretboard. For example if I wanted to play the F Lydian scale somewhere around the middle of the neck (around frets 5, 6 , 7, 8, 9...), I always need to look at the root note F on the first fret of the low E string and then calculate the intervals in my head from there, otherwise I d be lost smile.gif) As a result, once I found out what notes to play in the middle of the neck, the chord progression is already long gone lol
(the only solution I found for this problem is to simply start all my F Lydian solos somewhere near the nut where the root note (F) on the low E string is smile.gif

3 - Now thinking the other way around, when I play the notes of a major scale, let's say F Lydian, how can I find out what chords to play over that scale in order to sound Lydian? (even if I play the exact same notes, the name of the scale I m playing will change depending on the chords I play over it, right? But then how do I know which chords to use?)

Thanks a lot for your help!
:-)

This post has been edited by nawak: Feb 11 2011, 09:49 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rated Htr
post Feb 11 2011, 10:04 PM
Post #5


Experienced Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.111
Joined: 15-October 07
From: Leiria, Portugal
Member No.: 3.056



1 - Just to make sure my understanding is correct: if I hear a chord progression in the key of C major and I want to sound "Lydian", what I would have to do is play the F Lydian scale, and that would be the only way to sound "Lydian", correct?

No. It always depends on the chords and the notes you attack. I can be playing F Lydian shape and it would still be in C major. You have to understand the difference between the modes, not shapes. Lydian has a #4 compared to Ionian aka Major Scale, so the point is to attack that note to get the Lydian vibe. The more "limited" you make the chords, the better you can hear the sound, by that I mean, if you just play C F G triads, it's hard to hear the sound, since you can play any major scale on top of it and it would sound like something. Remember, they are the same notes, but the order of them changes, thus their sound.

2 - I find it extremely difficult not to think of the low E string to find out where the root notes are, and also not to think in terms of "positions" to find myself on the fretboard. For example if I wanted to play the F Lydian scale somewhere around the middle of the neck (around frets 5, 6 , 7, 8, 9...), I always need to look at the root note F on the first fret of the low E string and then calculate the intervals in my head from there, otherwise I d be lost smile.gif) As a result, once I found out what notes to play in the middle of the neck, the chord progression is already long gone lol
(the only solution I found for this problem is to simply start all my F Lydian solos somewhere near the nut where the root note (F) on the low E string is smile.gif


That means you either don't know all the major mode shapes or that you are boxed in. For example, If I know F Lydian is the IV degree of the C Major, than I can play the Lydian pattern in F, and the C Major pattern in C, and it will all be in the same key. That's more in less what you were thinking on the previous question, but the thing is, the shapes remain the same for every mode, so if you know all the shapes, you can play C D E F G A B C shapes all over the neck, but don't see them as modes, see them as shapes of the same mode, which is C Major in this example.

3 - Now thinking the other way around, when I play the notes of a major scale, let's say F Lydian, how can I find out what chords to play over that scale in order to sound Lydian? (even if I play the exact same notes, the name of the scale I m playing will change depending on the chords I play over it, right? But then how do I know which chords to use?)


Ok, what you need to go study is the formulas for the scales and the intervals.

You need to learn how to harmonize the major scale, for example, if you have

C Major:

You get C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C

The intervals in the scale are 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, No sharps, no flats.

If we go to D Dorian:

The intervals will stay the same if we start from C, if we start from D it becomes

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dm Em F G Am Bdim C Dm

So, you see, if you wanted to play the typical I IV V progression, if you played C F G, and play the first shape, you can call it C Major, but if you play Dm G Am, you can call it D Dorian, but it would be a different shape.

Get it?

This is for triads, let me know if you understood everything and that I didn't confuse, and I'll explain 7th chords, unless you think that's already to much information smile.gif

This post has been edited by Rated Htr: Feb 11 2011, 10:06 PM


--------------------
Currently Practicing

Rhythm: Finnish Power Metal III: Nightwish
Legato: Ben's Land Of Legato
Alternate Picking: Alternate Picking Workout #5
Chords: Chord Melody Technique

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sollesnes
post Feb 12 2011, 01:09 AM
Post #6


Learning Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.940
Joined: 18-January 09
Member No.: 6.623



Rated explained it pretty well smile.gif
You really need to consider each mode as an individual scale.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post Feb 12 2011, 02:41 AM
Post #7


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.760
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



Yes. Think of Each mode as it's own Scale. All the notes in the modes connect from open string to highest fret. By learning to see these patterns in your head, you can create amazing scale runs both ascending and descending. Also, if you can get the overall map in your head, you can know where you should or shouldn't land your fingers in any given key. This way, you are not locked in to one scale shape and thus stuck at a given fret position when you are soloing.

Here is an example from the GMC scale generator. This is A Minor.
Attached Image



Todd


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nawak
post Feb 12 2011, 02:58 PM
Post #8


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 24-June 09
From: Paris
Member No.: 7.323



QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 12 2011, 01:41 AM) *
Yes. Think of Each mode as it's own Scale. All the notes in the modes connect from open string to highest fret. By learning to see these patterns in your head, you can create amazing scale runs both ascending and descending. Also, if you can get the overall map in your head, you can know where you should or shouldn't land your fingers in any given key. This way, you are not locked in to one scale shape and thus stuck at a given fret position when you are soloing.

Here is an example from the GMC scale generator. This is A Minor.
Attached Image



Todd


1) Ok, so would it be a good idea to go on the GMC scale generator and start memorizing each scale one by one? (A aeolian, then B aeolian, then C aeolian, etc..., then A Locrian, B Locrian, and so on) for each modes/scales? (btw, that's quite a lot of scales to memorize on the whole fretboard...)

2) concretely, what Aeolian scale(s) could I play over a Dm chord?

3 ) I'm especially confused with the new song I am learning (Guthrie Govan - Wonderful slippery things), where Guthrie recommends improvising using a different scale in each bar:

bar1 => Bm7 (B aeolian)
bar2 => D9 (D mixolydian)
bar3 => Gmaj7 (G lydian)
bar4 => F#7b9 (F# phrygian dominant)

That's a lot of different scales to use over just 4 bars... How is that possible? What would be the best way to tackle this: playing just a few notes of one scale and then moving on to the next one?

thanks guys for your help smile.gif

This post has been edited by nawak: Feb 12 2011, 03:14 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rated Htr
post Feb 12 2011, 06:19 PM
Post #9


Experienced Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.111
Joined: 15-October 07
From: Leiria, Portugal
Member No.: 3.056




1) Ok, so would it be a good idea to go on the GMC scale generator and start memorizing each scale one by one? (A aeolian, then B aeolian, then C aeolian, etc..., then A Locrian, B Locrian, and so on) for each modes/scales? (btw, that's quite a lot of scales to memorize on the whole fretboard...)


No, it's simpler than that.



In here, you already have 3 shapes atleast ( non 3 notes per string ). If you look at the beginning of it, you'll see the pattern that's commonly reffer to as the Phrygian/Lydian pattern. That is, if you start it on E, if you look carefully, after that you can see the Mixolydian pattern, if you start it on G, than you have the Aeolian pattern, which starts on A. So you see, if you learn that, you already know 3 shapes to use.

2) concretely, what Aeolian scale(s) could I play over a Dm chord?

That's just one chord, you can play any Minor progression over it, depending on what root note you consider, it can be any mode. I can say to you I'm playing D Aeolian, but I could be playing D Dorian, and it would still be valid cause they are Minor Modes and work well over a minor chord.

3 ) I'm especially confused with the new song I am learning (Guthrie Govan - Wonderful slippery things), where Guthrie recommends improvising using a different scale in each bar:

bar1 => Bm7 (B aeolian)
bar2 => D9 (D mixolydian)
bar3 => Gmaj7 (G lydian)
bar4 => F#7b9 (F# phrygian dominant)

That's a lot of different scales to use over just 4 bars... How is that possible? What would be the best way to tackle this: playing just a few notes of one scale and then moving on to the next one?


That's a lot of theory for you to understand until you get a grasp of the modes, but as we've said before, what Govan is actually saying is for you to use the sonority over each chord. a Bm7 is just a minor chord with a b7, all three minor modes have a b7 so you could even use Dorian or Phrygian, he's just recommending B Aeolian for a matter of proximity in the fretboard. A D9 is a major chord with a b7 and a 9th. The 9th is the same has the second an octave higher, so it means the second is major, not minor. That results in a scale that only has one flat, the 7th, and that's the mixolydian scale. Gmaj7 is again, a major chord but has a major 7th instead of a minor 7th. That means you can use Ionian or Lydian, you can't use Mixolydian because, like I said, it has a b7.
The phyrigian dominant is a mode of the harmonic minor scale, and wouldn't reccomend you understanding it without first knowing the major scale modes first.

Hope that helps. I wouldn't try to understand the theory behind such a complex music like that to begin with atm.


--------------------
Currently Practicing

Rhythm: Finnish Power Metal III: Nightwish
Legato: Ben's Land Of Legato
Alternate Picking: Alternate Picking Workout #5
Chords: Chord Melody Technique

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th July 2017 - 03:45 AM