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> Trying To Create Meshuggah Tone, POD Farm GX
thefireball
post Sep 25 2011, 06:50 PM
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Yeah, title says it all. Kinda hard when you only have a 6 string. I tune way down to Gb with a 68. How do they do it with F? I think they use about this same gauge, don't they? It's just really floppy. Here's what I have so far.


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This post has been edited by thefireball: Sep 25 2011, 07:49 PM
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Sep 25 2011, 07:08 PM
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Don't need to do it like that mate smile.gif Just keep the drop tuning on the deepest note that you can, and do this:

use EQ to adjust your tone:

lower down around 200Hz to remove bass boom, lower down slightly 550Hz for scooped mids, and increase 1.4KHz a bit for increased presence.


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Daniel Realpe
post Sep 25 2011, 07:53 PM
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yeah, that's good advice from Ivan. And also keep the drive very little so that it is very clear. The sweet spot between clean and dirty.


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thefireball
post Sep 25 2011, 07:59 PM
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I lowered the distortion a little. Yeah, it does sound clearer. smile.gif

So is it typically lower tunings need lower distortion for clarity - in general? Kinda sorta? biggrin.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Sep 25 2011, 08:06 PM
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In general, less drive - more clarity smile.gif


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thefireball
post Sep 25 2011, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Sep 25 2011, 02:06 PM) *
In general, less drive - more clarity smile.gif


Nice. smile.gif


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thefireball
post Sep 26 2011, 03:16 PM
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I changed my tone a bit and tried it out by starting to write a song in Drop F. happy.gif Mostly experimenting.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Sep 26 2011, 05:26 PM
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This sounds very good. You're on half of the way, now try this:

- Double the guitar tracks by recording one more exactly the same take as this one (play it as tight as possible).
- Pan these two tracks left and right each.
- Make slightly different EQ settings on one track, possibly different amp that is hi-gain, and same EQ settings I described
- don't use more drive, use this amount on both tracks.


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thefireball
post Sep 26 2011, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Sep 26 2011, 11:26 AM) *
This sounds very good. You're on half of the way, now try this:

- Double the guitar tracks by recording one more exactly the same take as this one (play it as tight as possible).
- Pan these two tracks left and right each.
- Make slightly different EQ settings on one track, possibly different amp that is hi-gain, and same EQ settings I described
- don't use more drive, use this amount on both tracks.


Cool! I can do that. And one quick question. First, these tracks are recorded in Mono, separately in Left and Right channels. This Mono setting - is it already panned hard left or right (depending on the selection), or do I have to actually pan it hard left or right?

(Using Reaper)
For example: Select recording input Mono > Left. *Pans hard left* Or is that not even necessary?


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 27 2011, 03:17 AM
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Spiff tone! wink.gif I'm diggin it! Try the Ivan tips too. Considering what they use on a given album vs what you are using I'm really impressed it's as close as it is. The wonders of emulation! smile.gif


QUOTE (thefireball @ Sep 25 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Yeah, title says it all. Kinda hard when you only have a 6 string. I tune way down to Gb with a 68. How do they do it with F? I think they use about this same gauge, don't they? It's just really floppy. Here's what I have so far.


Like this?



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thefireball
post Sep 27 2011, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 26 2011, 09:17 PM) *
Spiff tone! wink.gif I'm diggin it! Try the Ivan tips too. Considering what they use on a given album vs what you are using I'm really impressed it's as close as it is. The wonders of emulation! smile.gif


Yes, after trying what Ivan said, I agree it sounds louder and meaner than before. It was really hard to keep things tight. biggrin.gif

Of course, I did update what I was doing for anyone else who didn't hear it. It's after I tried what Ivan said.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 27 2011, 10:43 AM
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Also consider how you use compression and in particular the attack and release as part of the tone here is related to how the guitar helps 'drive' the rythym. And there's also an issue with how compression, particularly at low frequency, affects the perceived stereo width of the recording which is important when you multi-track the guitar.


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MickeM
post Sep 27 2011, 11:12 AM
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another thing you can do is to record a third track, as tight as possible, with a perfectly clean tone that you don't pan. Keep in the middle. That can do wonders.


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TesttubeMammoth
post Sep 27 2011, 01:46 PM
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I have found the best single thing I have done to get a Djent style tone ( apart from downloading the Bulb Distortion patch from the Line 6 custom tone website cool.gif ) is replacing my pickups with some high output passive humbuckers.
These have a much tighter sound in the mids and a more aggressive low end than actives IMO. The actives I have used tend to sound a bit oversaturated.

That being said, tone is only half the battle. Havnig a good understanding of rhythm is also pretty crucial for this style.

I find having a tone I am happy with motivates me to practice more so it is important to get this sorted, it sounds like you're pretty close. smile.gif



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Sep 27 2011, 02:33 PM
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Hmm, this doesn't sound panned hard left and right. Are you sure you took both channels of guitars and panned them left and right in your DAW software?

Try to insert little compression on a master bus as Tony suggested, this type of production needs this a lot.


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thefireball
post Sep 27 2011, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Sep 27 2011, 04:43 AM) *
Also consider how you use compression and in particular the attack and release as part of the tone here is related to how the guitar helps 'drive' the rythym. And there's also an issue with how compression, particularly at low frequency, affects the perceived stereo width of the recording which is important when you multi-track the guitar.

I wonder if you or someone can expand on this a little. I inserted a compression FX on the master bus (I assume this is the master slider thing - where all sounds end up) and I'm playing with the pre-comp, attack, and release, but I'm not hearing any noticeable difference. What am I doing? tongue.gif Can you guide me a little bit? Or maybe I need to re-record it? I have not updated the track in Sound Cloud, by the way.

QUOTE (MickeM @ Sep 27 2011, 05:12 AM) *
another thing you can do is to record a third track, as tight as possible, with a perfectly clean tone that you don't pan. Keep in the middle. That can do wonders.

I'll have to try that. smile.gif

QUOTE (TesttubeMammoth @ Sep 27 2011, 07:46 AM) *
I have found the best single thing I have done to get a Djent style tone ( apart from downloading the Bulb Distortion patch from the Line 6 custom tone website cool.gif ) is replacing my pickups with some high output passive humbuckers.
These have a much tighter sound in the mids and a more aggressive low end than actives IMO. The actives I have used tend to sound a bit oversaturated.

That being said, tone is only half the battle. Having a good understanding of rhythm is also pretty crucial for this style.

I find having a tone I am happy with motivates me to practice more so it is important to get this sorted, it sounds like you're pretty close. smile.gif

Yeah, I'm pretty satisified with my tone, I can tell it's not exactly what my mind is looking for. Or maybe I don't really know what I want. tongue.gif Thanks, though.

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Sep 27 2011, 08:33 AM) *
Hmm, this doesn't sound panned hard left and right. Are you sure you took both channels of guitars and panned them left and right in your DAW software?

Try to insert little compression on a master bus as Tony suggested, this type of production needs this a lot.

Oops. Checked and there are tracks not panned all the way. They are centered in the Left and Right channels. I see it does make a difference after all. smile.gif Once again, anybody that can help me learn about this compression - even if it's pointing me to an article - I would be thankful and it would be much appreciated. smile.gif I have compression in my tone in POD Farm, but I don't know what it should be on.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 27 2011, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Sep 27 2011, 03:15 PM) *
I wonder if you or someone can expand on this a little. I inserted a compression FX on the master bus (I assume this is the master slider thing - where all sounds end up) and I'm playing with the pre-comp, attack, and release, but I'm not hearing any noticeable difference. What am I doing? tongue.gif Can you guide me a little bit? Or maybe I need to re-record it? I have not updated the track in Sound Cloud, by the way.


...


It takes some practice to get to know what to listen for. Doesn't help eother that different vsts, and some hardware comps, label the controls differently rolleyes.gif

Assuming that you're not listening to only the dry signal wink.gif ... Take the ratio up to @ 4:1 or even higher and drop the threshold so that the meter is just registering a change with a fast release time dialled in. Then adjust the attack, release and ratio until you get what you want leaving the threshold alone.

If you can't hear any thing when you're trying to set the threshold take the ratio to 8:1, fast release and drop the threshold a lot so that it affects a lot/all of the signal and the meter should be really moving. This is just to give you an idea of what you're trying to hear- the compression should be very audible. If you can't hear it now then change the compressor type: try for something that will to what you're currently using, something like a valve based ELOP emulation that can get very rhythmic and saturate musically but is limited on attack and release times (I'm guessing that what ever you're using is emulating a VCA).

What you are listening for is how the compressor places an emphasis/stresses part of the waveform. As an example - if you recorded the word 'compressor', adjusting the attack and release approprpaitely can change it to COMPressor, compRESSor, compressOR, COMPressOR. Once you have that down then reduce the ratio to a more moderate value between 2 to 4:1, adjust the threshold and fine tune the attack and release. You want the guitar to really drive/accent the rhythym, you may even need to push it hard in to pumping.

BTW most of the time you'd used a comp on the main/2 bus mainly to help glue the track together For a single instrument/bus group during mixing you'd normally put the comp on the appropriate aux S and R since putting stuff on the 2 bus taht is inappropriate and/or poorly implemented is often a quick way to trash your mix. It's good on the 2 bus here as you're really using it as a rhythmic device to drive the entire track, hence why me and Ivan are suggesting it. As it's on the 2 bus and if you have a comp that can do this then sidechaining the comp with an EQ HPF, possibly at 80-100Hz, can also help a lot.


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Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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thefireball
post Sep 28 2011, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Sep 27 2011, 10:20 AM) *
It takes some practice to get to know what to listen for. Doesn't help eother that different vsts, and some hardware comps, label the controls differently rolleyes.gif

Assuming that you're not listening to only the dry signal wink.gif ... Take the ratio up to @ 4:1 or even higher and drop the threshold so that the meter is just registering a change with a fast release time dialled in. Then adjust the attack, release and ratio until you get what you want leaving the threshold alone.

If you can't hear any thing when you're trying to set the threshold take the ratio to 8:1, fast release and drop the threshold a lot so that it affects a lot/all of the signal and the meter should be really moving. This is just to give you an idea of what you're trying to hear- the compression should be very audible. If you can't hear it now then change the compressor type: try for something that will to what you're currently using, something like a valve based ELOP emulation that can get very rhythmic and saturate musically but is limited on attack and release times (I'm guessing that what ever you're using is emulating a VCA).

What you are listening for is how the compressor places an emphasis/stresses part of the waveform. As an example - if you recorded the word 'compressor', adjusting the attack and release approprpaitely can change it to COMPressor, compRESSor, compressOR, COMPressOR. Once you have that down then reduce the ratio to a more moderate value between 2 to 4:1, adjust the threshold and fine tune the attack and release. You want the guitar to really drive/accent the rhythym, you may even need to push it hard in to pumping.

BTW most of the time you'd used a comp on the main/2 bus mainly to help glue the track together For a single instrument/bus group during mixing you'd normally put the comp on the appropriate aux S and R since putting stuff on the 2 bus taht is inappropriate and/or poorly implemented is often a quick way to trash your mix. It's good on the 2 bus here as you're really using it as a rhythmic device to drive the entire track, hence why me and Ivan are suggesting it. As it's on the 2 bus and if you have a comp that can do this then sidechaining the comp with an EQ HPF, possibly at 80-100Hz, can also help a lot.


I think I'm starting to grasp this. So, I'm trying to get a really loud mix if possible, and already am. But how do I get rid of all those ridges and make it a flat mix almost. I want to squeeze everything out. Then I can use these presets to continue with this song. I hear the compression now. Unfortunately, I don't have a dry signal to listen to. I record USB with my POD. And am right to increase the 2 bus master to get a louder sound? See how high it is in the corner? Kinda freakish.

This post has been edited by thefireball: Sep 28 2011, 03:42 PM
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 28 2011, 05:05 PM
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Getting your mix 'loud' ultimately depends on lots of things, it's not just a case of pushing levels. It depends on the composition, performance, how good the recording is, how good the mix is, etc., and how the mastering engineer can work with the former to get appropriate loudness. You really shouldn't be trying to get it as 'loud as possible' at mixing. Loudness is set at mastering.

To be brutally honest - not just you Fireball but everyone - unless you have quite a lot of experience at tracking and mixing individual instruments/buses then you really should avoid putting processors - particulaly compressors and limiters on the 2 bus. Just getting the basics of mixing right can be difficult enough and take time. If you then try and do final 2 bus and also mastering without having learnt the basics it is almost certainly a 'bridge too far'. There is already plenty of available recorded music - both 'pro' and amateur - that has been ruined by people thinking that they can put stuff on the 2 bus/main and geting it wrong.

TBH it is unlikely that anything you do will achieve the same sort of loudness as a commercial recording simply because you don't have mastering quality equipment: so I'm not going to advise you to clip your convertors and gainstage up in to the sweetspot on analogue hardware, etc as I don't think you have the hardware to do it. Nonetheless - assuming that you still want to try and do this then maybe take a look at the various threads I've written concerned with mastering (and mixing).

Some of the things you may need to do - assuming that your composition through to mixing are fine - is to look at the frequency spectrum for the tune and identify if there are ways for you to reduce certain frequency ranges and increase others to increase perceived loudness without unduly messing up the mix. This often means reducing the bass and sub bass, and possibly high frequency range over 12kHz and increasing the high mid in the 1-5k end. Whether you can, how and by much depends on the mix.

You can also use a comp on the main/2 bus as a means to increase apparent loudness albeit that you may find that you have to trade increased apparent loudness for level issues like pumping, etc. You can use different comp techniques, particulaly side chaining and parallel to increase apparent density. Side chainging cn allow you to use broadv=band compression so that it isn't affected by, say, the low bass frequencies. You can use parallel comp to appear to affect warmth, bass and particularly the mids to appear again to increase perceived loudness. You can gate to open up some room around the kick, which again can add apparent punch. Same for the snap on a snare. If you are careful, or if you don't mind probably ruining your mix, you can use a multiband compressor on the 2 bus.

You can level rise faders to emphasise the internal dynamics of the song. Pulling down slowly at the end of a verse and pushing up immediately at the start of the chorus can appear to make the chorus louder and jump out. You can also do more or less the same with appropriate X-fades.

You can look at decoding mid/side and so be able to eq/compress main vocal and lead guitar separate to say, backing vocals. You can also decode to M/S and just bring the level of the centre up relative to the L/R. You can add reverb - particularly with an M/S decoder, to add apparent density or space and level.

You can try using a processor to clip transients and then you can deliberate increase the rms. Or you can manually edit transient peaks to 'cut' off their tops and again subsequently push the rms.

You can also try placing a limiter at the end of the processing chain and use that to drive for apparent loudness. You can chain limiters in series to push it all a bit more with less distortion setting in. If you use a brickwall limiter you can quite easily push your mix to look like a flat, lifeless brick.

If you squeeze all the dynamics out of your music it will sound lifeless, flat and probably really uninteresting musically. You may end up with a heavily distorted and clipped product that will sound horrible, be difficult to listen to over an extended time and may not even playback on some systems. It will be just the same as lots of other crushed recordings that are commercially available from a lot of famous, big name, musicians and recording stars.

Or you can leave loudness to the mastering engineer and just turn up you monitors if you want to hear your mix a bit louder.

Welcome to the volume wars wink.gif .



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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

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Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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thefireball
post Sep 28 2011, 05:32 PM
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Wow. happy.gif Much of this is Hebrew to me. biggrin.gif I do hope I can learn this stuff one day when I get the proper equipment or something. I updated my track again. It seems to pop better, but then again, maybe not. Does it sound better? If it doesn't sound destroyed, then that's cool. However, if you think it sounded better before, I'll just take off the stuff from the master bus as you suggested. Mainly I'm just wanting to know what to listen for if this made it worse.

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Sep 28 2011, 11:05 AM) *
Getting your mix 'loud' ultimately depends on lots of things, it's not just a case of pushing levels. It depends on the composition, performance, how good the recording is, how good the mix is, etc., and how the mastering engineer can work with the former to get appropriate loudness. You really shouldn't be trying to get it as 'loud as possible' at mixing. Loudness is set at mastering.

To be brutally honest - not just you Fireball but everyone - unless you have quite a lot of experience at tracking and mixing individual instruments/buses then you really should avoid putting processors - particulaly compressors and limiters on the 2 bus. Just getting the basics of mixing right can be difficult enough and take time. If you then try and do final 2 bus and also mastering without having learnt the basics it is almost certainly a 'bridge too far'. There is already plenty of available recorded music - both 'pro' and amateur - that has been ruined by people thinking that they can put stuff on the 2 bus/main and geting it wrong.

TBH it is unlikely that anything you do will achieve the same sort of loudness as a commercial recording simply because you don't have mastering quality equipment: so I'm not going to advise you to clip your convertors and gainstage up in to the sweetspot on analogue hardware, etc as I don't think you have the hardware to do it. Nonetheless - assuming that you still want to try and do this then maybe take a look at the various threads I've written concerned with mastering (and mixing).

Some of the things you may need to do - assuming that your composition through to mixing are fine - is to look at the frequency spectrum for the tune and identify if there are ways for you to reduce certain frequency ranges and increase others to increase perceived loudness without unduly messing up the mix. This often means reducing the bass and sub bass, and possibly high frequency range over 12kHz and increasing the high mid in the 1-5k end. Whether you can, how and by much depends on the mix.

You can also use a comp on the main/2 bus as a means to increase apparent loudness albeit that you may find that you have to trade increased apparent loudness for level issues like pumping, etc. You can use different comp techniques, particulaly side chaining and parallel to increase apparent density. Side chainging cn allow you to use broadv=band compression so that it isn't affected by, say, the low bass frequencies. You can use parallel comp to appear to affect warmth, bass and particularly the mids to appear again to increase perceived loudness. You can gate to open up some room around the kick, which again can add apparent punch. Same for the snap on a snare. If you are careful, or if you don't mind probably ruining your mix, you can use a multiband compressor on the 2 bus.

You can level rise faders to emphasise the internal dynamics of the song. Pulling down slowly at the end of a verse and pushing up immediately at the start of the chorus can appear to make the chorus louder and jump out. You can also do more or less the same with appropriate X-fades.

You can look at decoding mid/side and so be able to eq/compress main vocal and lead guitar separate to say, backing vocals. You can also decode to M/S and just bring the level of the centre up relative to the L/R. You can add reverb - particularly with an M/S decoder, to add apparent density or space and level.

You can try using a processor to clip transients and then you can deliberate increase the rms. Or you can manually edit transient peaks to 'cut' off their tops and again subsequently push the rms.

You can also try placing a limiter at the end of the processing chain and use that to drive for apparent loudness. You can chain limiters in series to push it all a bit more with less distortion setting in. If you use a brickwall limiter you can quite easily push your mix to look like a flat, lifeless brick.

If you squeeze all the dynamics out of your music it will sound lifeless, flat and probably really uninteresting musically. You may end up with a heavily distorted and clipped product that will sound horrible, be difficult to listen to over an extended time and may not even playback on some systems. It will be just the same as lots of other crushed recordings that are commercially available from a lot of famous, big name, musicians and recording stars.

Or you can leave loudness to the mastering engineer and just turn up you monitors if you want to hear your mix a bit louder.

Welcome to the volume wars wink.gif .


This post has been edited by thefireball: Sep 28 2011, 05:35 PM


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