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Marcus Desaiha
post Dec 10 2011, 11:49 AM
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Hi!
I'm a huge noob when it comes to guitar equipment, I've been that kind of player who've been sitting in his room practicing with an amp simulating software or at best a 50W combo amp. I've got very little knowledge about amp heads and how they work, but I am in need of one now since me and my band are moving in to our own rehearsal premesis. During my years playing in various bands it has always been a stack that I could borrow, and I never really cared about getting one for myself. Thought times are a changing!

I'm of course planning on going to the nearest music store and try out some amps, but first I would like for you guys to share some of your knowledge in this matter.


This is good sample of the distortion I usually play with while messing around with guitar rig.
http://www.speedyshare.com/file/pU2T8/Shade-distortion.wma
I like the heavy and slightly muddy/dirty sound of it.

I've been looking around the web, listening to playthrough's with various amps and reading alot of reviews.

Theese are the ones that have caught my attention

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_powerball_ii_e6452_bstock.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_blackmore_si...650_topteil.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_savage_120_e610.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/peavey_6505_plus_...rrentopteil.htm

And the peavey 5150 which I could not find at Thomann.

Which one of theese would you recommend? If you wish to hear what kind of style I play you can check out my band at, only got a couple of samples up but you should be able to get the idea.
http://www.facebook.com/desaihamusic


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Nihilist1
post Dec 10 2011, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Desaiha @ Dec 10 2011, 10:49 AM) *
Hi!
I'm a huge noob when it comes to guitar equipment, I've been that kind of player who've been sitting in his room practicing with an amp simulating software or at best a 50W combo amp. I've got very little knowledge about amp heads and how they work, but I am in need of one now since me and my band are moving in to our own rehearsal premesis. During my years playing in various bands it has always been a stack that I could borrow, and I never really cared about getting one for myself. Thought times are a changing!

I'm of course planning on going to the nearest music store and try out some amps, but first I would like for you guys to share some of your knowledge in this matter.


This is good sample of the distortion I usually play with while messing around with guitar rig.
http://www.speedyshare.com/file/pU2T8/Shade-distortion.wma
I like the heavy and slightly muddy/dirty sound of it.

I've been looking around the web, listening to playthrough's with various amps and reading alot of reviews.

Theese are the ones that have caught my attention

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_powerball_ii_e6452_bstock.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_blackmore_si...650_topteil.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/engl_savage_120_e610.htm

http://www.thomann.de/se/peavey_6505_plus_...rrentopteil.htm

And the peavey 5150 which I could not find at Thomann.

Which one of theese would you recommend? If you wish to hear what kind of style I play you can check out my band at, only got a couple of samples up but you should be able to get the idea.
http://www.facebook.com/desaihamusic



My personal favourite is Orange, so it would be ridiculous if I didn't recommend it! Plus, you can get pretty much any tone you want out of an Orange Amp. It doesn't have much for EQ settings, but I am sure you would be able to get your tone out of it regardless. Those things are versatile! I am hoping to eventually secure an Orange Rocker 30(They stopped making them) and either a 2x12 or a 4x12. The thing about the Rocker 30, is that rather than a clean channel, it has a "natural" channel. Where it utilises the natural tone of your pickups. If you have a terrible guitar, it won't sound good.

However, I digress. Almost any Orange amp is good, and the tone is amazing. I can go from playing doom, to black metal, to Jazz, and everywhere in between. It is all around versatile, and sounds gorgeous. For some reason, I just can't get into American Amp companies like Mesa Boogie. I have had the option of playing so many( I grew up in Los Angeles close to the Mesa boogie store), but alas, to each their own.

Sorry for the Lengthy post! I just love being a tone whore!


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Sensible Jones
post Dec 10 2011, 01:53 PM
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I'd say that it all comes down to your budget.
Any of those amps you mention are capable of producing that kind of tone. Personally I like Peavey products, I've used many of their Amps over the last 25 years or so. But as pointed out above, it's a personal preference thing. Best option is to get to a Store where you can try some out and actually hear them and make comparisons there.
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jstcrsn
post Dec 10 2011, 07:20 PM
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I would add , Do you have the equipment( noise gate) or the ability( Rolling your volume down) to hush these bad boys at stage volumes
, Tube amp's are great for recording, but for playing live ,Noisy
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Dec 10 2011, 08:39 PM
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The only one that I tried of those amps is the Peavey 6505 and I think that it's a very good amp for modern rock and metal. It sounds big and uncompressed.


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AK Rich
post Dec 10 2011, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Dec 10 2011, 02:01 AM) *
My personal favourite is Orange, so it would be ridiculous if I didn't recommend it! Plus, you can get pretty much any tone you want out of an Orange Amp. It doesn't have much for EQ settings, but I am sure you would be able to get your tone out of it regardless. Those things are versatile! I am hoping to eventually secure an Orange Rocker 30(They stopped making them) and either a 2x12 or a 4x12. The thing about the Rocker 30, is that rather than a clean channel, it has a "natural" channel. Where it utilises the natural tone of your pickups. If you have a terrible guitar, it won't sound good.

However, I digress. Almost any Orange amp is good, and the tone is amazing. I can go from playing doom, to black metal, to Jazz, and everywhere in between. It is all around versatile, and sounds gorgeous. For some reason, I just can't get into American Amp companies like Mesa Boogie. I have had the option of playing so many( I grew up in Los Angeles close to the Mesa boogie store), but alas, to each their own.

Sorry for the Lengthy post! I just love being a tone whore!

Wish I could afford an Orange rolleyes.gif heavy sigh.
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 10 2011, 09:03 PM
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Well, not sure, these amps are all very loud, and all have preamp-based distortion. I've tried in the store first 3 amps, and friend of mine has 6505+, I played that one frequently, and heard it in live and studio. If you want heavy metal sound, 6505+ might be the beast you're looking for. It doesn't have that strong mids, but it's great machine. You will need noise gate with these amps, that's for sure.

The other amps are not that great to my preferences tho, ENGLs having a bit too sterile tone for my taste, and lack character (while still having great features good clean and good overdrive), Blackmoore is good I like it, it resembles to Marshall, so it's more of a rocking midrange sounding amp then metal amp, while 6505+ is metal-only mid-scooped sounding amp. Depending what you like in the store, you'll see... It's best to listen to your own ears. Piece of advice: Don't buy just because you should, buy if you are "amazed" with the sound.

From all these amps, I can say only for 6505+ that is has character that is recognizable.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Dec 10 2011, 09:07 PM


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Michael AC
post Dec 10 2011, 09:32 PM
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I use a combo amp so probably not much help.

The song Cherry sounded pretty awesome...good tones!
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MickeM
post Dec 11 2011, 01:54 PM
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From the ones you mentioned I'd say Blackmore, almost got one myself when I was browsing for a new head. Still want one.
I think it'd suit your sound.
The 5150 you asked about went out of production. You've linked to 6505 which came after.


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ZakkWylde
post Dec 11 2011, 02:15 PM
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Peavey 5150 = 6505
They dont own the name rights for 5150 anymore but the amp stays the same.

Looks like you are going for a modern (insert genre)-core sound so the first choice would be a peavey 6505+ (the plus version has independent knobs for both channels so you can dial in diffrent sounds). Make sure to test the clean channel of the 6505 before you buy it as it is not the best clean channel out there...

I would personally stay away from ENGL, great quality amps but they sound sterile like Ivan said AND they are really bad when it comes to cutting through the mix live or in the rehearsal room. Even with boostet mids the ENGL amps seem to drown out in the mix.

An Orange Amp like the Rockerverb 50 is also very good for this kind of music. The clean channel is amazing and the Od channel combined with a boosting tubescreamer gives you a killer modern metal tone with a small vintage feel to it. Sounds amazing!

You might also want to consider a Marshall JVM 410. This amp can deliver almost any sound you can imagine from cleanest clean to extreme high gain (the amp has 12 channels!). I had one and loved it - only problem was that it is quite noisy and was not the most reliable amp -.-

Last but not least: A Mesa dual rectifier or even a Mark V. Extremely expensive in Europe but great sounding amps with iconic tones.

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For modern heavier music with downtuned guitars there is one rule:
USE A TUBESCREAMER AS BOOST IN FRONT OF YOUR TUBE AMP!

Take a tubescreamer or any other kind of overdrive and set it to low gain and high level (tone at 12 o' clock). This tightens up your sound as the OD cuts your lower frequencies making you sound less muddy. It also boosts your mids which makes you more audible. The most important thing it does is giving your amp a small push, driving it into sweet saturation without adding much gain to it.

For example the orange rockerverb and the mesa rectifier sound really dry on high gain but with the added tubescreamer the sound becomes much jucier and refined - it also makes your amp more responsive for harmonics!

This is a glolden rule, I can't name a single modern band that does not boost their amps like this. It might be that the OD + highgain amp results in a lot of feedback, which is why you should also use a noisegate pedal to keep these noises down!


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SpaseMoonkey
post Dec 11 2011, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Dec 11 2011, 09:15 AM) *
For modern heavier music with downtuned guitars there is one rule:
USE A TUBESCREAMER AS BOOST IN FRONT OF YOUR TUBE AMP!


I must +1 this. When I finally got to see a Mesa Dual Rectifier in person I was extremely disappointed in the performance and the store was like no its fine they all sound like that, they sound so clean and tight.. It was super muddy. I guess this is why the place may have gone out of business. laugh.gif Few weeks later the guitar store I always go to got a used Mesa Triple in. I had to drive out to see it more power so I figured more headroom maybe it was tighter in sound as well. Nope, not really. But they know me quite well there and the manager owns the same head. Dials it in a bit sounds way better than the Dual did. He goes you want it tighter throw a Screamer up front. So I bought a TS9 and that drastically changed the sound to exactly what I wanted.

If you have a few good places to go or even maybe some friends, take the guitar, and a pedal you use for your tone. Everyones ears are different and this would give you a feel for what you want overall. But I would have to say you want examples of great metal tones from youtube. https://www.youtube.com/user/fearedse he would be the best place to check and he probably has played all of them amps mic'd to a daw and also a play-through.

Sorry to jack this thread but Nihilist1, you speak highly of Orange. I have a Marshall 4x12 1960a cab with GT-75s in it. Do you think that an Orange 2x12 closed back would be a big improvement on sound?



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 11 2011, 08:44 PM
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If I can answer to this from my experience: Depending on the speakers it can be significant improvement. I had 75s, and hated them, they are one of the worst celestion speakers out there. Combine 2 x vintage 30 and 2 x greenbacks in one box, that box will work excellent with any amp out there. Well defined bass and rich smooth mids with controlled top end, that's the great speaker for any head.


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Marcus Desaiha
post Dec 12 2011, 02:15 AM
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Thanks for all of your great answers!
Very well written!

I've never been interested in hardware (other than the guitar itself) until now, I've always played around (Caveman style) with whatever gear I could get my hands on, turning the knobs, pushing the buttons, until I felt it was good enough basicly. laugh.gif

But now I really want to create a distinct and original sound, as I do infront of the computer with software. Which leads me to the follow up question.

Can an amplifier itself produce a tone that will sound completely original and diffrent from the "other guy" using the same amp?
Or is it a good idea to use a distortion pedal or as Zakk mentioned tube screamer/OD?

I've seen people using distortion pedals with amps, for example the RAT pedal which seems to be pretty popular, and also the Ibanez TS9.
But at the same time you can read that it is "BLASPHEMY!" to use a distortion/OD or any pedal other than a noise reduction or good delay with a high end amp.

What are you're thoughts on this?

This post has been edited by Marcus Desaiha: Dec 12 2011, 02:17 AM


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SpaseMoonkey
post Dec 12 2011, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE (Marcus Desaiha @ Dec 11 2011, 09:15 PM) *
Can an amplifier itself produce a tone that will sound completely original and diffrent from the "other guy" using the same amp?
Or is it a good idea to use a distortion pedal or as Zakk mentioned tube screamer/OD?

I've seen people using distortion pedals with amps, for example the RAT pedal which seems to be pretty popular, and also the Ibanez TS9.
But at the same time you can read that it is "BLASPHEMY!" to use a distortion/OD or any pedal other than a noise reduction or good delay with a high end amp.

What are you're thoughts on this?


Amp tone, yes/no. Pat O'Brien of Cannibal Corpse uses a Mesa Triple Rectifier head and I can't get that tone for the life of me. I'm thinking maybe he is lower than C standard tuning. He also picks really heavy which gives him his sound. I have heard this more than I can count. Gear is only like 10% of the sound, the other 90% is in the fingers. Best example I can give is Jeff Loomis, he uses Engl amps, I've seen a line 6 video of a 75-Spider III combo amp (not 100% on the model) and it still sounds pretty much the same.

As for pedals its preference, I use to be all about using a clean channel and throwing pedals in front of the chain to give distortion and such. Well now I use a TS9 which just tightens up my tone so it doesn't sound as muddy. I also put a Boss ML-2 in front to see what it would do, it has a mid scoop to it and it colored the tone to give that feel behind it. So it was like an added EQ. I only picked up the TS9 because I was cheap and didn't want to spend $200+ on the Maxon OD808 , but one day that may change. If you do an OD I suggest a noise gate of some sort, because when I get some decent volume it give off some pretty nasty feedback.


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Nihilist1
post Dec 12 2011, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (SpaseMoonkey @ Dec 11 2011, 02:39 PM) *
Sorry to jack this thread but Nihilist1, you speak highly of Orange. I have a Marshall 4x12 1960a cab with GT-75s in it. Do you think that an Orange 2x12 closed back would be a big improvement on sound?


Yes, it would. Celestion 30's sound far better than GT-75's. GT 75's are actually used more in combo amps from what I understand.

As far as the debate on whether closed or open back speakers sounds better, it depends on your preference. If you are playing mostly classic rock, get the open back because it sounds more "open" and disperses sound a little more which sounds looser on the bottom end, whereas the closed back is better for higher levels of gain. Personally, I prefer the upper mids of the closed back and I think it sounds tighter and more even.

If you tell me what style of music you play, I can further recommend one, and with different reasons if necessary.

Myself, I play classic rock, jazz, blues, funk, Doom Metal( a la My Dying Bride, Tryptikon, and Celtic Frost's "Monotheist Album"), Folk Metal( Agalloch), Pagan Metal( Tyr, Arkona, Eluveitie, Ensiferum, Storm), Black Metal( Burzum, Krohm, Wyrd, etc), as well as a few other metal genres. It can handle it all. Most importantly, I can emulate Opeth's tones pretty damn well with one. Hell, I can even play Maggot Brain by Funkadelic and still get a great saturated blues tone from it!

PM if if you need more information.



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Todd Simpson
post Dec 14 2011, 06:19 PM
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As you have found out, you can create several thousand dollars worth of tone with a couple hundred bux worth of software plugins, but trying to re-create your personalized tone in hardware is gonna get pricey quick. Some players (and this is still the bleeding edge and by no means a majority) have ditched hardware for either rack mounted emulators (Axe FX) or even gone to using software emulators on stage such as Vernon Reid from Living Color (Guitar Rig). As these get better and better, we are going to see more and more of it. Don't get me wrong, I still love a great amp and being in the room with one is awesome.

For recording, I"ve ditched physical amps almost entirely and have been using OVERLOUD TH2 and GUITAR RIG for some months now. Getting "Amp Tone" recorded in a home setup is a real challenge. So simulating it has become my method of choice for home recording. Here is a recent example. Using TH2 for Daniels OZZY Collab.



As for building your custom tone in hardware, start by trying out as much hardware as you can so you can get a better idea of what bits sound good to you and how different bits sound in combination.

Todd


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