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> Can Chords Be Replaced By Single Notes?
Fran
post Jan 17 2012, 05:01 PM
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My 2 cents, learn the basic open chords and barre chords. Just with that you can play lots of songs, at least the basic rhythm, and even sing along, etc.

That's what most people learn first, even if they don't know a thing about theory. It's like learning the letters if you intend to write, that's all. No theory there.

After that most people get interested in solo guitar, improvising, playing more complex riffs, and so on.

Then again, to each their own smile.gif


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Dinaga
post Jan 18 2012, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jan 17 2012, 04:40 AM) *
All this explanation is really unnecessary. wink.gif


You wrapped it up the best, mate biggrin.gif I rest my case here.
I think it takes a lot less effort to learn the C major chord than to type all that huh.gif

The funniest thing is, I think this thread actually motivated me to take up more theory biggrin.gif


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richardb
post Jan 18 2012, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Jan 17 2012, 11:00 PM) *
You wrapped it up the best, mate biggrin.gif I rest my case here.
I think it takes a lot less effort to learn the C major chord than to type all that huh.gif

The funniest thing is, I think this thread actually motivated me to take up more theory biggrin.gif


once you are out of the education system then clearly you shall do whatever you
want to as noone can really stop you!


I will work on Bear Rose's course on chords, as soon as I complete the
alternative GMC stuff on chords I am working on at the moment.

Note that when you were talking about chords you did procure specific examples,
probably because you are interested in the chords which is the point I am making,
that you need to point to real examples when talking about theory, examples
are what makes learning interesting.

what I am asking is for such examples for the more basic techniques,
if you were taught by someone who also thought single notes were uninteresting
then its a self fulfilling prophesy.

but is it because the music you like the most involves chords that you became
interested in the chord theory?

if there is no interesting music using just the A minor pentatonic then WHY learn
about the A minor pentatonic?

presumably you didnt buy an electric guitar because you were impressed by
someone playing scales? biggrin.gif

actually when I was practising A minor pentatonic, I thought: this sounds
like "there is a house in new orleans", and after some experimenting
I managed to play most of that with the first box!

if you number the ascending notes of the first box of A minor pentatonic
as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ...
ie 1 is string 6 fret 5, 2 is string 6 fret 8, ...

then I think "there is a house in new orleans" is:

1 2 3 4 6 5 4 4 4 6 6 5 4 4 4 6 6 6 5 4 3 3 2 1 1

I am not sure what note is next, possibly that is outside the box.
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Alexiaden93
post Jan 18 2012, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (richardb @ Jan 18 2012, 12:41 AM) *
once you are out of the education system then clearly you shall do whatever you
want to as noone can really stop you!


I will work on Bear Rose's course on chords, as soon as I complete the
alternative GMC stuff on chords I am working on at the moment.

Note that when you were talking about chords you did procure specific examples,
probably because you are interested in the chords which is the point I am making,
that you need to point to real examples when talking about theory, examples
are what makes learning interesting.

what I am asking is for such examples for the more basic techniques,
if you were taught by someone who also thought single notes were uninteresting
then its a self fulfilling prophesy.

but is it because the music you like the most involves chords that you became
interested in the chord theory?

if there is no interesting music using just the A minor pentatonic then WHY learn
about the A minor pentatonic?

presumably you didnt buy an electric guitar because you were impressed by
someone playing scales? biggrin.gif

actually when I was practising A minor pentatonic, I thought: this sounds
like "there is a house in new orleans", and after some experimenting
I managed to play most of that with the first box!

if you number the ascending notes of the first box of A minor pentatonic
as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ...
ie 1 is string 6 fret 5, 2 is string 6 fret 8, ...

then I think "there is a house in new orleans" is:

1 2 3 4 6 5 4 4 4 6 6 5 4 4 4 6 6 6 5 4 3 3 2 1 1

I am not sure what note is next, possibly that is outside the box.


Even if the A minor pentatonic will be boring in the long run, it is a basis from which you can learn all the modes, and other scales. You're essentially saying you only want to learn things that are pleasing to the ear, which is fine. I'm sure that's what most people do. However, whatever you do learn IS music theory, it just doesn't have the same rigor as studying everything from A to Z.

What is cool about music theory is that it is an independent type of knowledge from which you can create ANY kind of music, not just things that sound like something you have heard before. You become the master of your own music, and not a slave of other people's music.

I'm surprised you haven't commented on any of my posts yet. Your logic is fundamentally flawed, and you are essentially looking for a confirmation of your own theory, which is based on laziness more than anything else. Countless people disagree with your theory, and when you find a single person out of 100 who might agree, you will take that as proof of your theory's validity. This is confirmation bias, and is something EVERYONE is prone to when trying to make a point, looking for acceptance, looking for gear, etc. Now you can be my guest and do the irrational thing, but please stop preaching it as if it is the rational thing to do; it isn't.


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richardb
post Jan 18 2012, 01:43 AM
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I'll keep this brief as its near the edge of relevance!

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jan 17 2012, 03:56 AM) *
Learning grammar before learning to communicate is indeed a bad way to learn language. You must always learn by using the language, or as I said, by application.


children all learn language entirely from usage in context, they cannot use grammar as grammar requires language to describe the grammar, and they dont yet know language as that is what they are trying to learn! self referential problem, catch 22

at the time I was at school, everyone in England did english O level, and there is no grammar whatsoever in that!

english taught in england is about two things: reading comprehension and composition (writing essays).

thats it, no grammar, no spelling, no punctuation. At some primary schools I went to we had spelling tests every day which is why my spelling is good. And I taught myself punctuation from a book, but it was never taught properly.

yet everyone who goes through this system gets the grammar correct

[quote name='Alexiaden93' date='Jan 17 2012, 03:56 AM' post='564168']
You have now heard several professional musicians, and several students, and one person (me) who happens to be fluent in 4 languages, and I can tell you, you will never be respected by the "right" people if you don't know grammar (or in the case of this argument, music theory).
[/qoute]

we learnt german in a grammar based approach at school. The problem is that everyone translates

"I went to town today and bought some food" to the same tense in german, but the germans
use a DIFFERENT tense. you have to translate "I have gone to town today and have bought some food" to german to
get the correct german usage!

ie the grammar based approach leads to INCORRECT usage!

germans who learn english from a grammar centric course have the same problem, they translate the german tense to the same tense in english, but english uses a different tense!

now when I stayed for many months in Germany, I found it took too much time to apply the grammar, so I decided to just say whatever came to mind and disregarded correctness.

the main problem is the many forms of "the" and "a" which german has and the accompanying adjective endings, but I would just use any form at all, disregarding gender and case,

(german has 4 cases, 3 genders + plural ie 16 forms of "the" with 16 accompanying adjective endings, 12 forms of "a" + 12 adjective endings, 16 adjective endings where no article is used, that is 5 tables of article and adjective endings)


I then could speak grammatically incorrect german "fluently", ie correct speed but with lots of errors, comparable to say playing
a guitar at a good speed but with lots of errors!

but I found to my amazement that after some months of doing this that I started to say things correctly without thinking about it, BECAUSE I was continuously hearing german being spoken and my subconscious had learnt from the endless correct usages I was hearing,

You have probably heard of Pavlov's experiment with the dog: he would ring a bell each time he fed the dog, and eventually if he just rang the bell, the dog would salivate.

anyway the explanation of the experiment is that the subconscious mind is trained ENTIRELY by usage and gets trained EFFORTLESSLY, the dog made no effort to associate the bell with the food, that happened automatically. (it also proves that a dog has a subconscious mind and is capable of abstract thought)

the same applies to all activities, continual perception of usage eventually leads to the person AUTOMATICALLY understanding.

grammar and theory are about the conscious mind, for mastery of physical arts such as martial arts, musical instruments, language speaking, acrobatics, gymnastics the conscious mind is too slow.

a martial artist can only deal with an attacker because they have practised this for many hours every week, to the point that it has become a "conditioned reflex", ie bypassed the conscious mind to the subconscious mind, which is NOT theory, it is INTUITION,

which is what you mentioned earlier about being able to play new music effortlessly, you cannot do that if you are visualising chord diagrams!

because of how the subconscious mind works, you can only ever gain mastery of anything from usage, theory doesnt affect the subconscious mind. no amount of theorizing changes the subconscious mind!

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Alexiaden93
post Jan 18 2012, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE (richardb @ Jan 18 2012, 01:43 AM) *
I'll keep this brief as its near the edge of relevance!



children all learn language entirely from usage in context, they cannot use grammar as grammar requires language to describe the grammar, and they dont yet know language as that is what they are trying to learn! self referential problem, catch 22

at the time I was at school, everyone in England did english O level, and there is no grammar whatsoever in that!

english taught in england is about two things: reading comprehension and composition (writing essays).

thats it, no grammar, no spelling, no punctuation. At some primary schools I went to we had spelling tests every day which is why my spelling is good. And I taught myself punctuation from a book, but it was never taught properly.

yet everyone who goes through this system gets the grammar correct

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jan 17 2012, 03:56 AM) *

You have now heard several professional musicians, and several students, and one person (me) who happens to be fluent in 4 languages, and I can tell you, you will never be respected by the "right" people if you don't know grammar (or in the case of this argument, music theory).


we learnt german in a grammar based approach at school. The problem is that everyone translates

"I went to town today and bought some food" to the same tense in german, but the germans
use a DIFFERENT tense. you have to translate "I have gone to town today and have bought some food" to german to
get the correct german usage!

ie the grammar based approach leads to INCORRECT usage!

germans who learn english from a grammar centric course have the same problem, they translate the german tense to the same tense in english, but english uses a different tense!

now when I stayed for many months in Germany, I found it took too much time to apply the grammar, so I decided to just say whatever came to mind and disregarded correctness.

the main problem is the many forms of "the" and "a" which german has and the accompanying adjective endings, but I would just use any form at all, disregarding gender and case,

(german has 4 cases, 3 genders + plural ie 16 forms of "the" with 16 accompanying adjective endings, 12 forms of "a" + 12 adjective endings, 16 adjective endings where no article is used, that is 5 tables of article and adjective endings)


I then could speak grammatically incorrect german "fluently", ie correct speed but with lots of errors, comparable to say playing
a guitar at a good speed but with lots of errors!

but I found to my amazement that after some months of doing this that I started to say things correctly without thinking about it, BECAUSE I was continuously hearing german being spoken and my subconscious had learnt from the endless correct usages I was hearing,

You have probably heard of Pavlov's experiment with the dog: he would ring a bell each time he fed the dog, and eventually if he just rang the bell, the dog would salivate.

anyway the explanation of the experiment is that the subconscious mind is trained ENTIRELY by usage and gets trained EFFORTLESSLY, the dog made no effort to associate the bell with the food, that happened automatically. (it also proves that a dog has a subconscious mind and is capable of abstract thought)

the same applies to all activities, continual perception of usage eventually leads to the person AUTOMATICALLY understanding.

grammar and theory are about the conscious mind, for mastery of physical arts such as martial arts, musical instruments, language speaking, acrobatics, gymnastics the conscious mind is too slow.

a martial artist can only deal with an attacker because they have practised this for many hours every week, to the point that it has become a "conditioned reflex", ie bypassed the conscious mind to the subconscious mind, which is NOT theory, it is INTUITION,

which is what you mentioned earlier about being able to play new music effortlessly, you cannot do that if you are visualising chord diagrams!

because of how the subconscious mind works, you can only ever gain mastery of anything from usage, theory doesnt affect the subconscious mind. no amount of theorizing changes the subconscious mind!


Interesting, although once again your logic is flawed as you conclude that theory is useless because it is a conscious and not subsconscious process. EVERYTHING you learn is at first conscious, and as you consolidate it it becomes more intuitive, and this includes MUSIC THEORY. You are not going to visualise chord diagrams for the rest of your life, because just like using language through application, it will become subconscious.

So what can I say, you clearly have some good points, which I agree with, but they aren't relevant to your argument since your conclusion is ultimately flawed.


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thefireball
post Jan 18 2012, 06:31 AM
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ARGG! wacko.gif Can somebody PLEASE stop?! This is turning into a mountain that was originally a small hill. sad.gif Chords can be replaced by single notes, but it is not going to be interesting...so ..meh...don't do it. Theory = creativity. smile.gif I don't possess much theory knowledge; thus, I am running out of ideas and having trouble composing leads and such. Theory helps you understand music a lot more.

Please, please, stop with the philosophical posts. smile.gif I think what all needs to be said has already been said.

Cheers!


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 18 2012, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jan 18 2012, 05:31 AM) *
ARGG! wacko.gif Can somebody PLEASE stop?! This is turning into a mountain that was originally a small hill. sad.gif Chords can be replaced by single notes, but it is not going to be interesting...so ..meh...don't do it. Theory = creativity. smile.gif I don't possess much theory knowledge; thus, I am running out of ideas and having trouble composing leads and such. Theory helps you understand music a lot more.

Please, please, stop with the philosophical posts. smile.gif I think what all needs to be said has already been said.

Cheers!


+1 Brandon!


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Sollesnes
post Jan 19 2012, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jan 18 2012, 06:31 AM) *
ARGG! wacko.gif Can somebody PLEASE stop?!


Noone is forcing you to read their discussion. Telling someone else to stop having a conversation is weird. huh.gif
By the length of these posts (that is tl;dr for me), they obviously care for their sides. Butting in telling them to stop is just rude.

This post has been edited by Sollesnes: Jan 19 2012, 01:06 AM
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richardb
post Jan 19 2012, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jan 17 2012, 03:56 AM) *
(sure you can play some pentatonics and impress some blonde girls with large breasts)


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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Frederik
post Jan 19 2012, 03:31 PM
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Keep on !!! You can discover new worlds in a grain of sand tongue.gif
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Frederik
post Jan 19 2012, 11:02 PM
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Gotta say i agree with alexiaden. Theory will make you walk different paths that will get intuitive with practice or time.

I guess richard, that if you keep on playing, you'll feel that Alexiaden is right. You gotta have some new input

To me it seems that you are trapped in the "grammar = theory"-metafor which is not entirely true



it was a fun exercise in argumentation though

This post has been edited by Frederik: Jan 19 2012, 11:01 PM
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Alexiaden93
post Jan 20 2012, 06:55 PM
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So... What is your current status, Richard? Do note, nobody here has told you to start by learning theory, nor that you HAVE to learn it in a structured fashion. At some point you will feel compelled to expand your knowledge, and might learn concepts that you want to know about, and in that way eventually cover all the bases. Now you just need to get interested in the "realm" of guitar and music in general. smile.gif


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