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> Timmy B's Mentoring Thread
Timmy b
post Feb 1 2013, 10:47 AM
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Cool Mate! I'll get right on it!
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 2 2013, 09:15 AM
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Alright! biggrin.gif


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Timmy b
post Feb 3 2013, 11:05 PM
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Allright man! Think I got this one!

Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm - Crash Test Dummies

Intro
Uses the chrods Gm7, Dm7, Ab, Bbsus4 I think the Ab may be an Add 9, not quite sure
Theres also a piano bit there, Picked out the G, Bb, F, C, Eb
All Seems to fit into the Eb Major Scale

Verse/Main bit
Chord Prog - Part 1 (I think I hear the sus voicings here and there)
Cm, Bbsus4, Ebx2
Ab, Eb, Bb, Eb
Abx2 Bbsus4, Eb
Bb, Eb, Ab, Eb, Bbx3

This bit is al straight forward for this bit, Vocals use the Ebmajor scale, starting on Eb. Except for a F# Note Which is an accidental.

Chord prog - Part 2This bit is a bit funny
B, Eb, B Bb7/Ab, Ab. the slash chord is the closest thing i could figure out (Bared at 3rd fret)
Vocals are Bb, Gb, F, Eb, Db, G, D.
The Gb and Db notes (which dont fit into the scale) are both used when the B chords is played (also not in the scale)
They run the sequence, Gb, F, Eb, (Db only first time) The only scales these fit to are the Db or Gb Major scales, neither of which have a natural B. So no Idea, whats happening here sad.gif Maybe just some random stuff to mess with everyones head! biggrin.gif

Intro/Chorus
Used again are the same chords, but with the mmmm mmmm part. G, Bb, D, F or a Gm7 Arpeggio

Bridge
Straight forward here too
Fm, Eb, Bb, then finished with an Ab chord. (maybe an add9 again??)
Vocals do Ab, C, Bb, Eb, F, G Around the Eb Major scale here


Outro
This part is just a repeat of the bridge with some other bits and pieces going on over the top. all sounds in key


Thats pretty much it. It all seems to be in Eb major except for that bit with the B chords.

So whats your take on this B chord then?? Im curious!

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 5 2013, 01:25 PM
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Hey man biggrin.gif You got a fine set of ears!!

- I'm not too sure about that Bbsus4 in the intro - but I will give it some fresh go tomorrow FIRST thing in the morning when my ears have had a good rest
- about that B - to me it sounds like B Lydian - which would have Gb major as the parent scale smile.gif Gb and Db are in there tongue.gif Messing with our heads indeed biggrin.gif

How's the hand mate?

Cosmin


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Timmy b
post Feb 5 2013, 04:09 PM
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Damn! B Lydian!
I missed that because my scale "Cheat sheet" Has a Cb instead of B on it! Totally missed it! Makes scene now!!
As for the Bbsus4 I think its a just a regular major, but they hammer onto the 4th which may give it that sound We'll see

The Hand? Haven't been playing much this week so it seems to be better. I'm away from my usual home again, but when i get back im going to try and organize a physio to check it out.

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 6 2013, 09:41 AM
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Oh, ok man - take care of that hand and... why not tell me a little bit more about this 'cheat sheet' of yours biggrin.gif How does it work?

Now, shall we have another challenge here? smile.gif



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Timmy b
post Feb 6 2013, 10:17 AM
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Challenge is the right word! Ill get on it
My cheat sheet is nothing special, just all the major scales written up in order on a little card. Whenever im doing this sort of work and im stuck or cant visualize what scale fits, ect... I pull it out and then its all so obvious. Except for that B lydian dry.gif

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 6 2013, 10:33 AM
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Ohhh, I see smile.gif Well, let's see what you have to say about Prince biggrin.gif


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Timmy b
post Feb 7 2013, 07:22 PM
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Hey mate,
I've got a few things on tonight, So i wont be able to make the vid chat.
Hope to make it next week
Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 7 2013, 08:31 PM
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Ok man, no problemmo - how's the Prince tune going? biggrin.gif


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Timmy b
post Feb 9 2013, 04:54 PM
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Hi Cosmin,
Think I've got this one worked out. It was a little tricky to hear it all as this was out of my comfort zone. But here goes

Prince - Raspberry Beret


Intro
Chords used are A, G, D, G, D, G A. I think they are D chords as the bass Is playing a F# on them, but F# Chord doesnt sound right. So I guess a D/F# Chord could be played too.
Bass A, G, F#, G, F#, G, A
Melody over this part uses C#, B, D, E, A, G
So all this tells me its in D Major.

Verse
The chords remain the same as the intro, With a second guitar working the melody around the chords too.
Bass is also Playing the same stuff.
Vocals are roughly working around the E, C#, B, A. Thats all i could hear. I had trouble getting notes from his vocals for some reason?
But, I think it keeps with the songs key.

Chorus
Chorus is the same as the intro, but with Vocals
Vocals use E, F#, A, C#, B Again, looks like the D Major

Bridge
Changes up a little bit here.
Chords D, A x2 (Fill) D,A x2 (fill) G, E, (fill) G, F#m, E. Again the Bass is doing a similar thing as earlier playing a C# were the A chord is. The C# chord didn't sound right and the A chord seemed to work. So again maybe a A/C# chord here??
The Bass follows the chords except for the extra C# And also plays a B before the C#.
The Vocals I had trouble following this well. Something with his vocal style i guess. But i think i heard all the notes from the D major scale again
So I also think this part is in the key of D major
The Only thing which I wasn't entirely sure about was the little fills in between the chord progressions.
Its D,E,A,G#, F#, E and the last note I think is a D, Which would fit fine with the key. But D# sounds ok too, but wouldn't make any sense scale wise. But im Going to go with the D

Thinks thats about it. So I im saying Key of D major.
What do you think??
Also, Im interested more in working out when modes are used, im not really sure how, as they use the same notes as the parents scales. how would one go about woking this stuff out? Maybe a topic we can touch on in the future.

Allright, Then see you again soon

Tim

This post has been edited by Timmy b: Feb 9 2013, 04:54 PM
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 11 2013, 05:13 PM
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Hey Tim! Total success mate smile.gif I followed everything and you are spot on mate! Prince does have a weirder vocal style indeed - hope my GF doesn't somehow end up reading this, as she is a bigger fan than I am tongue.gif

I uber proud of you biggrin.gif Now modes - well, in the last session I have explained how I built my take for the Prate Collab based on using modes smile.gif I will revise everything this Thursday and we can delve into the subject some more - you're coming right? biggrin.gif

When using modes you are basically using certain notes over certain chords smile.gif Tell me, am I mistaken or have we somehow hit this topic in the past?

In the mean time, you can try your hand on the homework and see what you get without thinking about modes - show me what you have come up with and we'll dissect the phrases and see if you have used modes without actually thinking of it wink.gif The link for the collab backing track is included in the link below!

What say you?

Here's the HW: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=47842


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Timmy b
post Feb 12 2013, 10:05 AM
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Hey Cosmin,
Thanks man, Its definitely getting easier to break songs down. You should def keep these posts hidden from the GF though ohmy.gif

I think we have touched on modes before, and I do understand the concept of them and how they are derived. Its just putting them into practical use is another story.
One thing I did notice about the prince track was that when I tried to improve over some parts, I found that It didnt sound right using the D note as a center as the key would imply. I found I was drawn to the A note More, which sounded a lot better.

Anyhow, Should definitely do more on the topic in the future. For now I'll check out the Homework. Think I should be able to make it this Thursday too.

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 13 2013, 08:49 AM
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That's because the song deals with the A mixolydian mode tongue.gif (5th scale degree of D major)

Now, until Thursday, try and fiddle around with the backing track and invent phrases which follow the chord changes - I have explained the chord progressions and in the first one which is basically a I V IV I progression in C minor, you can play C aeolian while over the rest of the progressions, you can follow the chord changes - for instance, over the G major you can play G phrygian dominant and G phrygian smile.gif Try things and let's see what you get at tomorrow's session. Don't worry, it doesn't have to be complicated wink.gif


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Timmy b
post Feb 13 2013, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 13 2013, 08:49 AM) *
That's because the song deals with the A mixolydian mode tongue.gif (5th scale degree of D major)

Now, until Thursday, try and fiddle around with the backing track and invent phrases which follow the chord changes - I have explained the chord progressions and in the first one which is basically a I V IV I progression in C minor, you can play C aeolian while over the rest of the progressions, you can follow the chord changes - for instance, over the G major you can play G phrygian dominant and G phrygian smile.gif Try things and let's see what you get at tomorrow's session. Don't worry, it doesn't have to be complicated wink.gif


Hey Cosmin,

I had a funny feeling that the Mixolydian had something to do with it!

I had a little mess around with the H/work. Its not fully done, But I played around with the modal bit. I've never really used this kind of approach on playing before, so it sounds very forced and planned. (Which it was!) Im not really too happy with it.

Maybe I'm approching it the wrong way, I find it hard to fit in notes which distinguish the mode well, (Which im not entirely sure of those notes either). Or is it more of the case of hitting the root (Mode Root) notes on the chord changes
Lots to learn I guess.

So, What are your thoughts?

Im going to do more work on it later and play what feels right on the other parts.

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 13 2013, 11:18 PM
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Hey Tim!

I think it's a good start man smile.gif You are right, as it sounds indeed way too rigid, but as I said, you have to start somewhere smile.gif

How I do it - I sing the line in my head and make it fit the chord progression and after laying it on the guitar I see what notes I will mod in order to make the lines fit some chord changes in such a way that they may emphasize on a particular mode biggrin.gif At some point you will be able to do it straight away, but till then, this is the best way to start - in my opinion!


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Timmy b
post Feb 14 2013, 07:08 PM
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Ok,
Had another try at this, Unfortunately I just didn't have the time i expected to have today to work on this. some stuff came up out of the blue.
So I did the modal part again, came up with something a bit better than last time. still not 100% but like you said this is all a matter of practice i guess. The other part I didnt get to yet. Next week ill have my regular practice space back, so I can get more work done.
Maybe next we can talk about which notes emphasize the modes so I have a better understanding of how to fit it all in better??
Catch you at the vid chat

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 15 2013, 09:35 AM
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Hey Tim! As we spoke last evening in the v-chat, time invested in exploring and practice, will solve a lot of problems wink.gif

About the modes and the notes you can use to emphasize them:

Ionian - 7, 4, 3
Dorian - 6, b3, 2
Phrygian - b2
Lydian - #4
Mixolydian - b7, 3
Aeolian - b6, b3
Locrian - b5
Harmonic Minor - b3, 7

Why not try and play these against the particular chord that they are associated with and see what things sound like? You know, harmonize a major scale using 7th chords and then over each chord play the afferent mode smile.gif Harmonic minor can be played over a mM7 chord (1 b3 5 7)


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Timmy b
post Feb 15 2013, 10:50 AM
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Cool! Thanks for that!
Those are the notes i wasn't too sure about, I will definitely study them.
Ive put together some baking tracks this morning to practice over, Ill see what I come up with and Ill post some stuff now and then.

This is one of those areas in my playing which is really missing, maybe even a bit scary to me, just because I have no experience in coming up with melodies and lead lines ect.. so i will spend lots of time on this in the next few weeks I think.

Tim
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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 16 2013, 04:23 PM
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Hey Tim! I'd be glad to help out with the subject, so let me know when you have finished exploring those tracks and if you have any questions at the moment. I'd also like to hear if you felt inspired to come up with any ideas using the characteristic scale degrees of each mode, or the collab track biggrin.gif


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