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> Where's The Guitar Music Heading?
JTaylor
post Jun 7 2012, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jun 7 2012, 03:44 PM) *
And with that move they became the biggest metal band in history wink.gif I think it was brilliant strategy, they milked every last drop from the proverbial metal cow, and realized that if they didn't change course, they would just fade away. At that time, 80's metal bands were on the way out, and the bands that didn't change with the times lost their place in the market.

Any band that wants to stay relevant needs to change with the times, and Metallica have done an excellent job at that. Everybody in the music industry anticipates a new Metallica release, and every new studio album they have released in the past 20 years went straight to number one on the charts. If you want to be a successful band, then you should definitely be inspired by Metallica's formula, because it works.

Of course I can't deny Metallica's X factor, which is their character. To me, character is what really sells, not necessarily the music itself. There are million of great guitarist with millions of great tunes, but not all of them have character. Any song Metallica covers instantly becomes a Metallica song; after listening to it you would never think it was written by someone else. They have that sound, the Metallica sound. And this is what record companies have been selling for years. Franks Sinatra, Elvis Presley, and Johnny Cash didn't write most of their songs, but what sold those songs was there character.

When it comes to selling music, the music itself comes secondary to character.


They have done good at making money, I will give them that. I saw an interview with Jason Newstead where he says they are "sell outs" because they sell out every seat, at every show, in every town they play. I guess you are seeing something I do not, which would probably make it a matter of opinion because I have had to hear a few of their songs in recent years and "that sound" from Kill em All, Master of Puppets. etc. just isn't there for me. As a matter of fact, the guitar at the end of each line in "Until it Sleeps" sounds identical to the song "Push It" by Salt n Pepa.
When "Load" came out, people I knew that into top 40 stuff were immediately running out and buying it. Some of them had no clue who Metallica even was before that album. I wish they had not gone that direction but hey, they don't need my permission to do anything. As a matter of fact, I think I just saw them laughing at me....... as they flew over my house in a 30 million dollar jet. wink.gif


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Yash
post Jun 7 2012, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jun 8 2012, 01:14 AM) *
And with that move they became the biggest metal band in history wink.gif I think it was brilliant strategy, they milked every last drop from the proverbial metal cow, and realized that if they didn't change course, they would just fade away. At that time, 80's metal bands were on the way out, and the bands that didn't change with the times lost their place in the market.

Any band that wants to stay relevant needs to change with the times, and Metallica have done an excellent job at that. Everybody in the music industry anticipates a new Metallica release, and every new studio album they have released in the past 20 years went straight to number one on the charts. If you want to be a successful band, then you should definitely be inspired by Metallica's formula, because it works.

Of course I can't deny Metallica's X factor, which is their character. To me, character is what really sells, not necessarily the music itself. There are million of great guitarist with millions of great tunes, but not all of them have character. Any song Metallica covers instantly becomes a Metallica song; after listening to it you would never think it was written by someone else. They have that sound, the Metallica sound. And this is what record companies have been selling for years. Franks Sinatra, Elvis Presley, and Johnny Cash didn't write most of their songs, but what sold those songs was there character.

When it comes to selling music, the music itself comes secondary to character.



QUOTE (Dinaga @ Jun 8 2012, 01:21 AM) *
Sir, I salute you for that post.

I actually grew up on Load and Reload (as well as on their older stuff) and I love those albums, because it's Metallica. I can even listen to St. Anger because of the authentic Hetfield voice and the riffing (although there are no solos! biggrin.gif ). But I see why fans treat that as a sell-out - because it is!

On the other hand, Iron Maiden more or less went the same way throughout their career, and although it's actually my favorite band, I can't stand the last album because I think Steve Harris' creativity passed away a long time ago and he's just repeating himself for a long time:
Slow intro - build up - epic repetitive chorus - bridge - climax with 3 solos - slow outro same as intro... oh yes and a lot of bass...
(talking about a formula that works?)

This topic brought some really interesting discussions. It's really a joy to read all the opinions on the subject.

However, I'm still convinced the industry's going down and losing the soul...
This song could sum it up:



Great posts. I salute both of you with all respect. And Steve's Formula works big time.


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Alex Feather
post Jun 8 2012, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jun 7 2012, 09:47 AM) *
Should we really think about the possibility of changing 'Guitarmasterclass.net' into 'DJmasterclass.net'? That would be a nightmare of gargantuan proportions, but nowadays, it seems that guitar music is losing ground to electronic/ pop stuff - or is it?

This I read in a very interesting article which I will post as a link below:

Hard times for guitar music?

The conclusion is that the big record labels are only promoting 'safe' rock music, perfectly fitting selling recipes, rather than experimenting and trying to sign bands with an original sound or approach, out of what I synthesized from this article.

On the other hand, there are a lot of good examples of great modern rock bands which have made it by propelling themselves through smaller labels, backed up by a lot of work and touring, thus really making it out there and having a solid organically built fan base.

This is a very interesting matter for all of us having bands in here and I know there's a lot of us and I also know we all are thinking: MAN HOW DO I GET MYSELF AND MY MATES OUT THERE?

What's the best approach I'm wondering? And is it that good to be signed by a big label out of the blue?

Questions, questions...questions? laugh.gif

Cosmin


Very good topic! I don't think that guitar music is going away it's just needs a new guy who will create something fresh! And it will pick up again! smile.gif
Also there is a lot of new players came out not so long ago!
Guthrie Govan, Joe Bonamasa, Andy McKee, Nick Sterling and many others! I think it's important to continue playing and having fun with it! smile.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 8 2012, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Jun 7 2012, 08:51 PM) *
Sir, I salute you for that post.

I actually grew up on Load and Reload (as well as on their older stuff) and I love those albums, because it's Metallica. I can even listen to St. Anger because of the authentic Hetfield voice and the riffing (although there are no solos! biggrin.gif ). But I see why fans treat that as a sell-out - because it is!

On the other hand, Iron Maiden more or less went the same way throughout their career, and although it's actually my favorite band, I can't stand the last album because I think Steve Harris' creativity passed away a long time ago and he's just repeating himself for a long time:
Slow intro - build up - epic repetitive chorus - bridge - climax with 3 solos - slow outro same as intro... oh yes and a lot of bass...
(talking about a formula that works?)

This topic brought some really interesting discussions. It's really a joy to read all the opinions on the subject.

However, I'm still convinced the industry's going down and losing the soul...
This song could sum it up:


I have to agree with you on both these points, D-Man ! Although I think Reload was a poor second to Load and St Anger is almost unlistenable, bands do have to evolve and in doing so, you have to go up to the line, cross it and then you have a knowledge of where the line is so you can either stay over the line or come back with a healthy respect for the line and not cross it again. I think Metallica crossed the line with a few things they did but have come back to the other side again but with the added experience of 'crossing the line' with them that bands like Slayer do not have.

Unfortunately, I also have to agree with you on the Maiden thing. I'll always love them, but that's exactly what kind of sells it for them these days. Their fans will love whatever they put out. Bands should feel as alive, threatened and hungry whenever they write music, no matter how financially comfortable they are and no matter how established their reputation is. You have to keep pushing out and feel the excitement and the danger with the act of creation. You have to keep growing. I think they're a bit happy with their nice, comfortable niche, which is a very English old fashioned way of looking at things, but it is kind of their generation.

I think Dickinson and Smith are the only ones who feel different which is why they left.. but evidently they must have squared it with their consciences somehow to come back and keep doing it.


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Dinaga
post Jun 8 2012, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 8 2012, 07:45 AM) *
I think Dickinson and Smith are the only ones who feel different which is why they left.. but evidently they must have squared it with their consciences somehow to come back and keep doing it.


And when these two teamed up for the Chemical Wedding album, it came up fantastic and very refreshing! It was something new and it worked so well. It's almost a perfect heavy metal album to me.

This post has been edited by Dinaga: Jun 8 2012, 11:41 AM


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 8 2012, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Jun 8 2012, 11:41 AM) *
And when these two teamed up for the Chemical Wedding album, it came up fantastic and very refreshing! It was something new and it worked so well. It's almost a perfect heavy metal album to me.


Yeah, and for Accident of Birth too smile.gif

Yeah, Smith loves that down tuned vibe and Bruce has always been interested in experimenting.


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Gitarrero
post Jun 8 2012, 02:28 PM
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I totally agree on the "sound" thing. Metallica always sounds like Metallica, and Maiden always sounds like Maiden. You hear a few beats and you know who is playing. Even though they both changed their style, the sound stayed mostly the same. The same is true for Rammstein and Die Toten Hosen, to name a few huge german bands. Or Blind Guardian. The majority of the fans wouldn't want them to experiment at all. I guess that's why some musicians have their side projects. If you want to stay successfull as a band, stick to your sound.

For further reference check Ben's GMC funny.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 8 2012, 04:43 PM
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I guess I managed to trigger something with this post biggrin.gif well, for my following 50cents in the machine, I think that Load and Reload are two good albums, honestly speaking smile.gif I really like them and I think they sound fresh even today, after 14 years.

For me, Metallica lost it with St. Anger, a bit though... People keep bashing them, but I will only say that I am saturated (I used to abuse it A LOT from 96' till '01 and that's maybe a good reason for this feeling laugh.gif ) with their music and that's it. I respect them a lot (I grew up with their music) and I also respect that they decided to try other things.

What I don't like, is bands struggling to keep their old sound and not being able to adapt. Adapting is one thing selling out is another. Look at Incubus for instance. They somehow managed to stay fresh and NO ALBUM sounds like the previous, but you can always tell it's them smile.gif That, for me, is creativity.

I think it's more of a principial thing here smile.gif I read in the posts that, Metallica were accusing Anthrax for selling out because of the collaboration with Public Enemy - very bad move. This collaboration sparked the ignition of a very powerful wave of bands which would have probably not become what they were in their times of glory.

I think it's very easy to bash on people and very difficult to say: 'Hey, I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's not good or creative' smile.gif

Now on the other hand, I think all of us here are facing the bumpy road in trying to place our band as high as possible on the exposure screen. It's a difficult battle and I think that we could accomplish some things if we would be able to have a clear mindset and lookout on the tools which are available.

There's a problem here as well - they are JUST TOO MANY. Anxiety is getting a hold on us because there are TOO MANY OPTIONS, far too little time and the time used for being creative is less and less well spent.

A lot of big events here are based on votes in 50% of the cases - who's got the most time for literally bombarding the FB groups and forums with VOTE MY BAND PLEASE, has actually more chances to win than a band who's actually taking time to create and be original about it. The band crew NEEDS an online responsible smile.gif as the technician and sound engineer and manager are important, so is the online responsible. If one of the guys in your band has enough time on his hands, it's good, but if not... you get to loose in front of some people who are not that good on stage, but have taken care of this issue. It is possible here in Romania smile.gif

My conclusion is, the more we let ourselves dragged in the online world without making two steps back to think, the more chances are that we will get a bit lost in there.

It's a great tool - hey, I'm working in this environment 80% of my time, right? laugh.gif - but in the same time, it can be a very tricky thing because it eats up your time in which your music could make a difference. In the end, we are musicians right? smile.gif

Sorry for all the ranting, but I am meeting our online responsible tomorrow and I was curious about your thoughts on this laugh.gif

Cosmin

This post has been edited by Cosmin Lupu: Jun 8 2012, 04:45 PM


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 8 2012, 05:47 PM
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I totally agree that there are so many different things in cyberworld that makes it confusing for bands to know exactly what to do and what to devote their time too.


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Mudbone
post Jun 8 2012, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dinaga @ Jun 7 2012, 03:51 PM) *
Sir, I salute you for that post.

I actually grew up on Load and Reload (as well as on their older stuff) and I love those albums, because it's Metallica. I can even listen to St. Anger because of the authentic Hetfield voice and the riffing (although there are no solos! biggrin.gif ). But I see why fans treat that as a sell-out - because it is!

On the other hand, Iron Maiden more or less went the same way throughout their career, and although it's actually my favorite band, I can't stand the last album because I think Steve Harris' creativity passed away a long time ago and he's just repeating himself for a long time:
Slow intro - build up - epic repetitive chorus - bridge - climax with 3 solos - slow outro same as intro... oh yes and a lot of bass...
(talking about a formula that works?)

This topic brought some really interesting discussions. It's really a joy to read all the opinions on the subject.

However, I'm still convinced the industry's going down and losing the soul...
This song could sum it up:



Like you, I think St.Anger is a good album, if not even a great album. It has some killer Metallica riffs and the arrangements are definitely refreshing. Ben does have a good point though, its kinda hard to listen to, mostly because of the intentionally low production quality and the extraordinarily annoying snare drum.

The very last Maiden album was exactly like you said - rigid conformity to their own formula. They kinda sounded like a parody of themselves laugh.gif The previous album, A Matter of Life and Death, however, was an excellent album, IMHO. They experimented with their sound and produced something a bit more progressive and ethereal. It sounds different than their other albums, but is also classic Maiden. Definitely a successful experimentation.

Back to the original subject, there is still great guitar music being produced. Porcupine Tree is a prime example. Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree should also be an inspiration to everybody: He didn't make it big until he was in his late 30's/early 40's. He worked on his music for almost 20 years before he started producing music that had wide appeal. This just goes to show that it takes time to hone your skills and you're never really past your peak. But this only worked for him because he didn't follow any trends, and created his own style of music. If he followed the rock trends of the early 90's and didn't make it then, he probably wouldn't have made it. Almost all trends are sinking ships, thats why you should always blaze your own path. When that proverbial ship sinks, and every trendy band is drowning, you'll be on an island somewhere drinking Margaritas and watching all the pretty girls run by laugh.gif

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 8 2012, 03:45 AM) *
I have to agree with you on both these points, D-Man ! Although I think Reload was a poor second to Load and St Anger is almost unlistenable, bands do have to evolve and in doing so, you have to go up to the line, cross it and then you have a knowledge of where the line is so you can either stay over the line or come back with a healthy respect for the line and not cross it again. I think Metallica crossed the line with a few things they did but have come back to the other side again but with the added experience of 'crossing the line' with them that bands like Slayer do not have.

Unfortunately, I also have to agree with you on the Maiden thing. I'll always love them, but that's exactly what kind of sells it for them these days. Their fans will love whatever they put out. Bands should feel as alive, threatened and hungry whenever they write music, no matter how financially comfortable they are and no matter how established their reputation is. You have to keep pushing out and feel the excitement and the danger with the act of creation. You have to keep growing. I think they're a bit happy with their nice, comfortable niche, which is a very English old fashioned way of looking at things, but it is kind of their generation.

I think Dickinson and Smith are the only ones who feel different which is why they left.. but evidently they must have squared it with their consciences somehow to come back and keep doing it.


You do make an excellent point Ben. Bands that push their boundaries keep things interesting for the fans, for better or worse. Even if one album turns out to be terrible, the music press will keep the band in the spot light. Every album will be discussed and disputed in magazines and forums; there is no such thing as bad publicity. It is pretty much free advertising. This is why I think Mike Portnoy leaving Dream Theater might be staged. Everything either Portnoy or Dream Theater says is in the press now. Gossip is great publicity wink.gif


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Gitarrero
post Jun 8 2012, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jun 8 2012, 07:38 PM) *
When that proverbial ship sinks, and every trendy band is drowning, you'll be on an island somewhere drinking Margaritas and watching all the pretty girls run by laugh.gif


Sooo...may I ask where exactly this island is? laugh.gif

And you're right about Dream Theater, the whole thing kinda seemed staged and now they've got more publicity than ever.
You just have to be in the media...look at all those bubblegum-popstars like Rihanna, Lady Gaga and the likes.


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Mudbone
post Jun 8 2012, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jun 8 2012, 01:42 PM) *
Sooo...may I ask where exactly this island is? laugh.gif


You have your own island, you just have to find it.... through practice! laugh.gif


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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


Gear:

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Gitarrero
post Jun 8 2012, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jun 8 2012, 07:52 PM) *
You have your own island, you just have to find it.... through practice! laugh.gif


NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Is that you, Todd??? Have you hacked mudbone's account?


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Mudbone
post Jun 8 2012, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jun 8 2012, 02:01 PM) *
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Is that you, Todd??? Have you hacked mudbone's account?


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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He who laughs last thinks slowest.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens


Gear:

Guitars: Uncle Rufus' Twanger Classic
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Mojo: Hammer of Odin and a pair of Ox gonads
Inspiration: Samuel Adams Boston Lager

Zero to Hero: 1,387/10,000

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The Uncreator
post Jun 9 2012, 02:02 AM
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I find it confusing that people believe a band can sell out. Metallica, literally, would have to intentionally try to make an album that would not make them money, or do a tour that would not sell out. Metallica, much like any respectable band, do what they want for themselves. As selfish as that sounds, music is always written for the artists first, the fans, you, me, everyone are going to be secondary to that, its normal.

So Metallica have always done what they wanted, there obviously not afraid to do something like St. Anger, or Lulu - trends do not really mean a whole lot to them, whatever Metallica does is what they feel like doing, there is no selling out, you just don't like the album, there is no need to try and justify your dislike of them by claiming they sold out, its irrational. You can't prove any band is truly a "sell-out", name a band that openly admitted to making a completely different album to make money. You can't.

We as fans, are uncommonly blessed with the plethora of music available to us and how easily it is available to us, I firmly believe that no fan of any music anywhere has any real firm stance for complaining about anything. Theres too much out there to enjoy, to experiment with. (Except of course where music you listen to is almost a crime, or extreme poverty situations, etc. etc.)

That rant being said, all you need to know about music, like with pretty much anything ever, can be summed up with Carl Sagan's words....

"I don't know where I am going, but I am on my way" smile.gif
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Yash
post Jun 9 2012, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jun 8 2012, 09:13 PM) *
I guess I managed to trigger something with this post biggrin.gif well, for my following 50cents in the machine, I think that Load and Reload are two good albums, honestly speaking smile.gif I really like them and I think they sound fresh even today, after 14 years.

For me, Metallica lost it with St. Anger, a bit though... People keep bashing them, but I will only say that I am saturated (I used to abuse it A LOT from 96' till '01 and that's maybe a good reason for this feeling laugh.gif ) with their music and that's it. I respect them a lot (I grew up with their music) and I also respect that they decided to try other things.

What I don't like, is bands struggling to keep their old sound and not being able to adapt. Adapting is one thing selling out is another. Look at Incubus for instance. They somehow managed to stay fresh and NO ALBUM sounds like the previous, but you can always tell it's them smile.gif That, for me, is creativity.

I think it's more of a principial thing here smile.gif I read in the posts that, Metallica were accusing Anthrax for selling out because of the collaboration with Public Enemy - very bad move. This collaboration sparked the ignition of a very powerful wave of bands which would have probably not become what they were in their times of glory.

I think it's very easy to bash on people and very difficult to say: 'Hey, I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's not good or creative' smile.gif

Now on the other hand, I think all of us here are facing the bumpy road in trying to place our band as high as possible on the exposure screen. It's a difficult battle and I think that we could accomplish some things if we would be able to have a clear mindset and lookout on the tools which are available.

There's a problem here as well - they are JUST TOO MANY. Anxiety is getting a hold on us because there are TOO MANY OPTIONS, far too little time and the time used for being creative is less and less well spent.

A lot of big events here are based on votes in 50% of the cases - who's got the most time for literally bombarding the FB groups and forums with VOTE MY BAND PLEASE, has actually more chances to win than a band who's actually taking time to create and be original about it. The band crew NEEDS an online responsible smile.gif as the technician and sound engineer and manager are important, so is the online responsible. If one of the guys in your band has enough time on his hands, it's good, but if not... you get to loose in front of some people who are not that good on stage, but have taken care of this issue. It is possible here in Romania smile.gif

My conclusion is, the more we let ourselves dragged in the online world without making two steps back to think, the more chances are that we will get a bit lost in there.

It's a great tool - hey, I'm working in this environment 80% of my time, right? laugh.gif - but in the same time, it can be a very tricky thing because it eats up your time in which your music could make a difference. In the end, we are musicians right? smile.gif

Sorry for all the ranting, but I am meeting our online responsible tomorrow and I was curious about your thoughts on this laugh.gif

Cosmin


That was not ranting man. smile.gif Every word is true. I bow to you for that post, and starting the topic too. smile.gif *bows*

Information and discussions like these are very important for young musician minds, like me. Probably, all of us would be uber happy (and some, maybe slightly jealous too, but I really doubt that, that's just human nature) if one of us makes it big, very big. Like Bullet For My Valentine. And the one who makes it big won't be so selfish to forget us guys. smile.gif

And I believe, that not just one, but many of us GMCers WILL make it big.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 9 2012, 02:34 PM
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I hope I will be able to keep up with never forgetting the people who were nice to me, if I'll ever make it big smile.gif big words, right? Well, if you don't raise the bar you'll never be able to jump higher.

I met this girl today, which me and the guys in Aria decided to work with as our online responsible and PR. I think I managed to speak about everything there was to say about the band and our goals and expectations. She showed a lot of enthusiasm and she seems to know a lot about the online environment.

Hopefully, this step will take some stuff off our time and allow us to focus on creating material for her to use laugh.gif

How many of you guys having a band, are working with someone who is responsible for your online activities or PR duties? I'm curious to know how it works for you smile.gif

Cosmin


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SCProphet
post Jun 9 2012, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jun 7 2012, 07:32 PM) *
Let us agree to disagree.

Piracy exists. That is a true enough fact. Although physical disk sales dropped 13% in 2011, downloadable disk sales in 2011 increased by a total of 24% -- which is HUGE.

We also have to take into consideration that people are purchasing singles more than full albums because let's face it, the economy sucks. People are only buying songs that they know they like since they don't have to take a chance with a full album of music they might not listen to.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/201...never-kill-you/

http://www.ghacks.net/2012/01/02/did-onlin...-sales-in-2011/

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120217/...ollapsing.shtml


Are those numbers a procentual increase measured in one year? If so then you don't have any ground for your claims. I Think it is safe to assume (I don't have time to look it up) but movie sales, game sales and music sales (digital and physical) are much lower today then they were in the 1980 's (if you keep in mind the population of this planet increased by about 3 bilion in that time) and for sales on games you should compare the numbers against the ps 2 era , so arround 1998-2002 .

The reasons for this decline in sales is piracy and also the economic crisis, or maybe just the thought about this crisis. People save their money because they get told they face an economic crisis => less stuff gets bought = > less revenue is made = > people are fired = > people has less money to buy stuff => etc etc etc


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Gitarrero
post Jun 9 2012, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jun 9 2012, 03:34 PM) *
I hope I will be able to keep up with never forgetting the people who were nice to me, if I'll ever make it big smile.gif


We'll remind you of this post when we ask you for backstage passes one day biggrin.gif


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Yash
post Jun 9 2012, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jun 9 2012, 07:04 PM) *
I hope I will be able to keep up with never forgetting the people who were nice to me, if I'll ever make it big smile.gif big words, right? Well, if you don't raise the bar you'll never be able to jump higher.


I'd love to see you make it big, bro wink.gif We'll all be very happy. And, yes, you do need to have big dreams to make big.

QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jun 9 2012, 07:56 PM) *
We'll remind you of this post when we ask you for backstage passes one day biggrin.gif


And Autographs, spare guitars, amps you received and didn't work for you, and help with getting us endorsements. laugh.gif
Jokin tongue.gif


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Play with emotion. Playing with all technique and no emotion makes you boring. And most importantly, Make faces while bending.


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