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> The Higgs Boson Possibly Discovered!
The Uncreator
post Jul 4 2012, 01:25 PM
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http://www.livescience.com/21380-higgs-bos...c-findings.html

This is some big news, this would be like living when Galileo proposed that the universe was not geocentric but heliocentric. I am overly excited that the "God Particle" could well be on its way to confirmed.

To most people this may not be exciting, but this is REALLY big news. This is the kind of stuff that paves the way for major scientific discoveries.
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Opetholic
post Jul 4 2012, 01:37 PM
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It is not a discovery yet! It is an observation of a Higgs like particle. There is still some excess in certain channels (like the gamma-gamma channel), so it doesn't exactly behave like a Standard Model Higgs particle. We will have to wait and see what it really is.. Also I don't understand why people call it the "God Particle". It just doesn't make sense. It has a name, it is called the Higgs Boson, has nothing to do with "God" tongue.gif just responsible for Electroweak symmetry breaking.


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The Uncreator
post Jul 4 2012, 04:37 PM
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It just a nickname, although it does accentuate its importance, it is still a highly sought after discovery. It what gives other particles mass smile.gif
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Opetholic
post Jul 4 2012, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 4 2012, 03:37 PM) *
It just a nickname, although it does accentuate its importance, it is still a highly sought after discovery. It what gives other particles mass smile.gif

That is not necessarily entirely true although it is the simplest explanation.. The Higgs Boson gives mass to the electroweak force carriers. The rest of the matter mass could in principle be obtained through another particle, not necessarily the same Higgs.. But again, what you said is what we believe to be the simplest explanation that is viable..


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The Uncreator
post Jul 4 2012, 05:06 PM
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Its the easiest way to put forward its importance. If you want technical explanation the matter to mass is secondary really, as it explains breaking of electroweak symmetry in nature. Not sure if Electroweak is the scientific term for it, thats what I learned to call the interaction between the "weak nuclear force" (weak interaction/ weak force) and electromagnetism.
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Opetholic
post Jul 4 2012, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 4 2012, 04:06 PM) *
Its the easiest way to put forward its importance. If you want technical explanation the matter to mass is secondary really, as it explains breaking of electroweak symmetry in nature. Not sure if Electroweak is the scientific term for it, thats what I learned to call the interaction between the "weak nuclear force" (weak interaction/ weak force) and electromagnetism.

biggrin.gif I don't really need technical explanation tongue.gif I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics, this has been my area of expertise for many years now smile.gif yes Electroweak is the correct scientific term. In standard model of particle physics weak nuclear force and the electromagnetic force can be unified, this we call the electroweak force..


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Nihilist1
post Jul 4 2012, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Opetholic @ Jul 4 2012, 12:37 PM) *
. Also I don't understand why people call it the "God Particle". It just doesn't make sense. It has a name, it is called the Higgs Boson, has nothing to do with "God" tongue.gif just responsible for Electroweak symmetry breaking.


Leon Lederman said he gave it the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive,"but jokingly added that a second reason was because "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing."

"The Higg's Boson takes its name after the title of Leon Lederman's popular science book on particle physics, The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question? While use of this term may have contributed to increased media interest, many scientists dislike it, since it overstates the particle's importance, not least since its discovery would still leave unanswered questions about the unification of quantum chromodynamics, the electroweak interaction, and gravity, as well as the ultimate origin of the universe."

- Source, Wikipedia

I do recall Lederman making that comment in an interview. I didn't know about it until I listened to a lecture given by Lawrence Krauss.

All in all, it is good that they found something. If I recall correctly, CERN was going to shut down the Hadron Collider at some point this year if they didn't discover something.



Unrelated: I just found out that Bill Nye was a student of Carl Sagan. Oh man, I am nerding out right now laugh.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jul 4 2012, 06:19 PM
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Well, I'm sure I don't need to point out the similarity in the name of the 'God Particle'

Higgs.... Higgins..

Just sayin' wink.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Opetholic
post Jul 4 2012, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 4 2012, 05:19 PM) *
Well, I'm sure I don't need to point out the similarity in the name of the 'God Particle'

Higgs.... Higgins..

Just sayin' wink.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif

I was wondering when The Higgins would make this comment biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


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The Uncreator
post Jul 4 2012, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Opetholic @ Jul 4 2012, 12:09 PM) *
biggrin.gif I don't really need technical explanation tongue.gif I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics, this has been my area of expertise for many years now smile.gif yes Electroweak is the correct scientific term. In standard model of particle physics weak nuclear force and the electromagnetic force can be unified, this we call the electroweak force..


Ah thats awesome, I hope to pursue a similar career someday! smile.gif
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ringmar
post Jul 4 2012, 08:33 PM
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Well, has this particle ever actually been observed? I believe the answer is no.

So... like a belief in God, one has to accept it's existence without proof. Scientists believe in this particle even though it's never been proven, yet similarly alot of scientists think the belief in God (also without proof) is ridiculous. Odd isn't it?
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The Uncreator
post Jul 4 2012, 08:39 PM
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Its still possible to acknowledge that it is not proven yet still get excited that the possibility is increasing by each day, especially enough for people to start leaking news articles. Also, even if its disproven, we are that much closer, which is still exciting.

And its not odd what your propose, because there are theories which support the existence of the higgs through careful observations of other scientific fields. Whether we discover the higgs, or something else, its still amazing smile.gif


EDIT

Also, lets keep this topic on the discussion of the Higgs and not the comparison between its nickname and its religious counterpart.
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Opetholic
post Jul 4 2012, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (ringmar @ Jul 4 2012, 07:33 PM) *
Well, has this particle ever actually been observed? I believe the answer is no.

So... like a belief in God, one has to accept it's existence without proof. Scientists believe in this particle even though it's never been proven, yet similarly alot of scientists think the belief in God (also without proof) is ridiculous. Odd isn't it?

Let's say there is a lot of theoretical motivation for the existence of such a particle. Be it the Higgs or something else, the field theory needs it.. The reason why for so long we believed Higgs existed is because it is the simplest way theory gets around major problems. But again, it can be something very complicated. I personally don't believe that standard model Higgs exists as a fundamental scalar field. But that is my theoretical prejudice. We will all see in the coming years..

So the answer to you is, no, this kind of belief is fundamentally different from a belief in God. This has some theoretical motivation, in the sense that the theory needs it.


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Sinisa Cekic
post Jul 4 2012, 11:05 PM
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Outstanding news, I read about it yesterday, it seems that humanity is on the threshold of an amazing discovery - how the universe was created !!!


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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2012, 12:21 AM
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The reason it's nicknamed the 'God's Particle' is because the Big Bang Theory is originally based on Christian faith, Athiests just twisted it into their own and then mock the previous faith (when it's pretty much the same logics)...

"The big bang theory was originally modeled by a Christian, before a university created into what we now know it as.

He based his work off Albert Eistein's theory of relative. Who in turned said he added a static variable because he didnt believe it was correct which he later considered the biggest mistake in his life. Eistein later himself even said to his class why it's more logical to believe in a creator of the universe. While he wasn't religious, he considered Atheists as blindsided.

Athiesm is now left with a faith they believing in, created by the very people that they mock and an intelligent person that even said they where possibly wrong and illogical to rule it out. The Big Bang Theory has a logical holes in it, which Atheists fulled up and proved by believing in something also invisible known as Dark Matter.

Dark matter accounts for the missing mass, you have no choice but to introduce another element such as this for it to make logical sense. It can't be described as a particle we understand, but more like a wave-like form or field-like form that fulls the universe and affects pretty much everything.

Basically, dark matter/enery cannot be seen -- scientists can only estimate where it is based on gravitational effects on what they can see. Yet they believe in makes up at least 76% of the universe?

Your brain also has it's own dark matter supply, approx making up 90% of it.
Dark energy hits a human approx every one minute throughout their life.

If you break almost everything down in this universe, you are left with building blocks known as atoms. Dark energy is known to affect gravity and shape/mound these atoms.

Do you believe in something invisible which can not be seen but only the effect of what it leaves behind - that touchs us and is even inside us? Wow, that sounds a lot like a religion I know! It was also nicknamed the 'Gods Particle' and even non-believers now want to play god with it....

If you believe in Dark Matter, then it is bias to rule out a Creator as it's based on the same concept."

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2012, 12:25 AM
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Sollesnes
post Jul 5 2012, 12:34 AM
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Ignoring if it's the standard higgs particle that has been found or not, I've heard scientists saying that finding this has been more difficult to do in 2012, than landing a human being on the moon in 1969. That means a day worth celebrating! smile.gif

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2012, 01:21 AM) *
The reason it's nicknamed the 'God's Particle' is because the Big Bang Theory is originally based on Christian faith, Athiests just twisted it into their own and then mock the previous faith (when it's pretty much the same logics)...

Also, It's nicknamed 'the Gods Particle' because the author who wrote a book about it (Leon Lederman) wanted to call it the "Goddamn particle", as in THE goddamn particle, but the publisher insisted on it being nicknamed to the god particle.
Your insistance to bring in and discuss religious faith on a topic like this is just silly. So despite the lack of reasoning in your post, I'll just stop here.

This post has been edited by Sollesnes: Jul 5 2012, 12:34 AM
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The Uncreator
post Jul 5 2012, 01:23 AM
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I must restate this, no religious discussion and/or debate was intended. Lets keep this on track with the scientific aspect of it.
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Nihilist1
post Jul 5 2012, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 4 2012, 07:39 PM) *
EDIT

Also, lets keep this topic on the discussion of the Higgs and not the comparison between its nickname and its religious counterpart.


I agree. I didn't mean anything inflammatory by my comment. I was just answering Opetholic's question.

Needless to say I would be excited if the particle they discovered was Higg's Boson and not just another Boson particle. I have wondered quite a bit over the last few years as to thy whys and hows of the electroweak force.


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Opetholic
post Jul 5 2012, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 5 2012, 08:48 AM) *
Needless to say I would be excited if the particle they discovered was Higg's Boson and not just another Boson particle. I have wondered quite a bit over the last few years as to thy whys and hows of the electroweak force.

Actually that is the least exciting scenario both from a theoretical and experimental perspective. Higgs search is only one of the objectives of the LHC. It will be more exciting if what is found is a Beyond the Standard Model Higgs, like a supersymmetric Higgs or a composite Higgs, meaning Higgs made out of more fundamental fields. This kind of a discovery will open up so much more avenues..


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Nihilist1
post Jul 5 2012, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (Opetholic @ Jul 5 2012, 09:35 AM) *
Actually that is the least exciting scenario both from a theoretical and experimental perspective. Higgs search is only one of the objectives of the LHC. It will be more exciting if what is found is a Beyond the Standard Model Higgs, like a supersymmetric Higgs or a composite Higgs, meaning Higgs made out of more fundamental fields. This kind of a discovery will open up so much more avenues..


This is true, but wouldn't the full revelation of a Higg's Boson Particle add an extra measure of plausibility to the existence of other Boson models?

I didn't mean that the scenario of discovering the electroweak force to be the most interesting theoretically or experimentally, it is just the scenario that I personally seem to be most fond of for whatever reason. Although, the supersymmetric model seems to be very interesting as well.


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