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> The Higgs Boson Possibly Discovered!
Opetholic
post Jul 5 2012, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 5 2012, 10:25 AM) *
This is true, but wouldn't the full revelation of a Higg's Boson Particle add an extra measure of plausibility to the existence of other Boson models?

I don't quite understand what you mean but we know already that there must be a bosonic particle that couples to standard model particles. It may be a fundamental particle or a composite particle, that's another story..And what is observed at the LHC is with a very very high statistical significance a Higgs like particle because they are looking at very specific Higgs signals. So if they see it and differentiate it from the background with that kind of a high statistical significance (usually more than 5 sigma is required) then it is a Higgs boson. So the question: "Did they really observe a Higgs like particle or some completely different boson?" has now a quite definite answer.

The real question is, what kind of a Higgs boson did they observe? That will take some time to answer but if it is just the standard model Higgs particle that we speculated for all this time, it will be extremely boring and bad also for several reasons.. To find that kind of a particle we didn't really need a machine as powerful as the LHC. LHC was designed with something else in mind wink.gif We will see smile.gif


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Nihilist1
post Jul 5 2012, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Opetholic @ Jul 5 2012, 11:02 AM) *
I don't quite understand what you mean but we know already that there must be a bosonic particle that couples to standard model particles. It may be a fundamental particle or a composite particle, that's another story..And what is observed at the LHC is with a very very high statistical significance a Higgs like particle because they are looking at very specific Higgs signals. So if they see it and differentiate it from the background with that kind of a high statistical significance (usually more than 5 sigma is required) then it is a Higgs boson. So the question: "Did they really observe a Higgs like particle or some completely different boson?" has now a quite definite answer.

The real question is, what kind of a Higgs boson did they observe? That will take some time to answer but if it is just the standard model Higgs particle that we speculated for all this time, it will be extremely boring and bad also for several reasons.. To find that kind of a particle we didn't really need a machine as powerful as the LHC. LHC was designed with something else in mind wink.gif We will see smile.gif


I have a few questions for you, that I hope you can answer since you have a PHD in Particle Physics. laugh.gif

What do scientists have to do to get the statistical significance to 5 Sigma? I know it is currently at 4.9.

This brings me to my next question. Why 5 Sigma? Why does the Sigma level have to be so high? Or more importantly, what does the Sigma level really mean.

Why would it be a bad thing if it was only a standard Boson model? That would still be a discovery -- which is what the LHC was primarily built for. To discover new things.

I tend to study biology more than any other area of science and since I don't understand the level of Mathematics behind physics(I have never been taught, but I doubt that it would make much sense to me since I suck at math), so I am sorry if a lot of these questions seem basic.

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer this, I love learning. biggrin.gif

P.S. I can PM you if you'd rather.


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Opetholic
post Jul 5 2012, 01:20 PM
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I will gladly try to answer your questions in a way that is as non-technical as possible smile.gif

QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 5 2012, 11:52 AM) *
What do scientists have to do to get the statistical significance to 5 Sigma? I know it is currently at 4.9.

In order to increase statistical significance you need more statistics. That means more experimental data. The more data the experimentalists have the more "significant" (or reliable) the results are in some sense. So basically we just have to wait for more data smile.gif

QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 5 2012, 11:52 AM) *
This brings me to my next question. Why 5 Sigma? Why does the Sigma level have to be so high? Or more importantly, what does the Sigma level really mean.

Sigma is really the the same sigma in statistics, it is the standard deviation. 5 sigma level is a generally agreed upon benchmark. It has to do with the probability that you are wrong (or right, whichever way you look at it). So when I say, with 5 sigma significance I have observed a Higgs signal, I mean that with a probability of less than 1 in a million I am wrong! So then with a very high probability I am right smile.gif
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 5 2012, 11:52 AM) *
Why would it be a bad thing if it was only a standard Boson model? That would still be a discovery -- which is what the LHC was primarily built for. To discover new things.

There has always been 2 primary objectives of the LHC which have always been as important as one another. The first one is to find the Higgs. The second one is to find some beyond the standard model signal because we know from theory that there has to be something beyond the standard model within the reach of LHC. Otherwise, even if the standard model Higgs is there, the quantum field theory that describes the standard model still has some pretty important problems.. That's why the scenario that LHC in the end only finds a standard model Higgs and nothing else is pretty bad from the theory perspective.. It will of course be good that we found Higgs but then we are lost again because there are some as important questions left unanswered. It will also be bad because if we only find a standard model Higgs, it will be very difficult say in the next 50 years to plan and commission and get finances for another bigger accelerator.. So yea, there better be something more than just the Higgs smile.gif

I hope the fast explanations are ok. If you want to further discuss I would be happy to smile.gif


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Nihilist1
post Jul 5 2012, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Opetholic @ Jul 5 2012, 12:20 PM) *
I will gladly try to answer your questions in a way that is as non-technical as possible smile.gif


In order to increase statistical significance you need more statistics. That means more experimental data. The more data the experimentalists have the more "significant" (or reliable) the results are in some sense. So basically we just have to wait for more data smile.gif


Sigma is really the the same sigma in statistics, it is the standard deviation. 5 sigma level is a generally agreed upon benchmark. It has to do with the probability that you are wrong (or right, whichever way you look at it). So when I say, with 5 sigma significance I have observed a Higgs signal, I mean that with a probability of less than 1 in a million I am wrong! So then with a very high probability I am right smile.gif

There has always been 2 primary objectives of the LHC which have always been as important as one another. The first one is to find the Higgs. The second one is to find some beyond the standard model signal because we know from theory that there has to be something beyond the standard model within the reach of LHC. Otherwise, even if the standard model Higgs is there, the quantum field theory that describes the standard model still has some pretty important problems.. That's why the scenario that LHC in the end only finds a standard model Higgs and nothing else is pretty bad from the theory perspective.. It will of course be good that we found Higgs but then we are lost again because there are some as important questions left unanswered. It will also be bad because if we only find a standard model Higgs, it will be very difficult say in the next 50 years to plan and commission and get finances for another bigger accelerator.. So yea, there better be something more than just the Higgs smile.gif

I hope the fast explanations are ok. If you want to further discuss I would be happy to smile.gif


Those were easily understandable. Thanks!!! biggrin.gif


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The Uncreator
post Jul 5 2012, 10:25 PM
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Look, I know this is a guitar site, but Opetholic should do particle physics lessons. Seriously, that would be awesome laugh.gif
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SirJamsalot
post Jul 5 2012, 10:41 PM
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what I wanna know is: When do we get to start using worm-hole technology.
I'm a huge Farscape fan and want to meet Rigel!



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Nihilist1
post Jul 5 2012, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Jul 5 2012, 09:41 PM) *
what I wanna know is: When do we get to start using worm-hole technology.
I'm a huge Farscape fan and want to meet Rigel!



Speaking of Helium... Does anybody else know that the Earth is almost out?


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 6 2012, 02:35 AM
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Stephen Hawking already paid the hundred bux he bet that they'd never find it. And while true it's a Boson "like" particle. This alone is a watershed event in science. It's honestly like Newton and the Apple in terms of particle physics.

Todd

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 4 2012, 08:25 AM) *
http://www.livescience.com/21380-higgs-bos...c-findings.html

This is some big news, this would be like living when Galileo proposed that the universe was not geocentric but heliocentric. I am overly excited that the "God Particle" could well be on its way to confirmed.

To most people this may not be exciting, but this is REALLY big news. This is the kind of stuff that paves the way for major scientific discoveries.



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The Uncreator
post Jul 6 2012, 11:21 AM
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"Imagination is powerful part of science"

-Michio Kaku


Heavily paraphrased, but don't forget that making these kinds of discoveries could be breaking point, or the lain groundwork for something much bigger. Don't be too quick to downplay because its not world shattering, imagine smile.gif
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Sensible Jones
post Jul 7 2012, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 4 2012, 06:19 PM) *
Well, I'm sure I don't need to point out the similarity in the name of the 'God Particle'

Higgs.... Higgins..

Just sayin' wink.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif

There was a young particle named Higgs,
Whose name should have really been Higgins,
It was ever so small,
Hardly there even at all,
Just like that fella Balbo Biggins!!!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


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