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> Some Guy Goes Postal In Colorado, Always in CO it seems.
jstcrsn
post Jul 22 2012, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 22 2012, 12:25 PM) *
There is the argument too that if someone had a gun in theater it wouldnt have gone on as it did. If someone had a concealed weapons permit and was able to take the gunman down.

I will probably have a concealed permit at some time or another, it's almost completely logical to me. My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.

I have mine, but I don't carry yet, I just wanted it in case i ever feel the need , I can just carry immediately
It took 4 moths to go thru the paperwork and register with the local law enforcment
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VilleFIN
post Jul 22 2012, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 22 2012, 02:25 PM) *
There is the argument too that if someone had a gun in theater it wouldnt have gone on as it did. If someone had a concealed weapons permit and was able to take the gunman down.

I will probably have a concealed permit at some time or another, it's almost completely logical to me. My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.

You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif

This post has been edited by WeePee: Jul 22 2012, 03:23 PM


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Ben Higgins
post Jul 22 2012, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (WeePee @ Jul 22 2012, 03:21 PM) *
You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif


This is very true... the statistics for how much law enforcement officers actually miss, even at close range, is astounding. I can't remember the actual details but there was an incident I read about where the police surrounded a house where a guy was armed and causing some sort of trouble. He went outside and refused to drop his weapon, intending to opt for 'suicide by cop' - getting shot by the police. The police opened fire on the guy.

They didn't allow the news to be published that every single officer missed because it would have undermined the public's confidence.


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Mudbone
post Jul 22 2012, 07:14 PM
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Some people say more guns are the answer, others say less guns is the solution. They're both wrong. Everyone in that theater had the opportunity to be carrying a firearm, there was nothing legally stopping them from doing so. But here's the thing, most people, and many gun owners, myself included, don't want to be walking around all the time packing heat. If I'm out with a girlfriend to have a good time, I feel just having on my person kinda ruins the vibe, you know?

Plus its not comfortable, especially if its a service size pistol. I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif

Making guns illegal also won't work, especially in the US. There are MILLIONS of guns out there now. Making them illegal will only create a black market for them. That just means more noneffective government control, just like with drugs. Also, whats the government going to do, take every one's guns away? You know, these aren't incandescent light bulbs they would be confiscating, they're guns, and I can assure you many people will use them before they give them up blink.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jul 22 2012, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 07:14 PM) *
I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif


I love your stories. I swear they couldn't happen to anyone else !! And prune juice as well... good job you weren't passing by the ladies sanitary aisle !! laugh.gif


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Mudbone
post Jul 22 2012, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 22 2012, 11:12 AM) *
This is very true... the statistics for how much law enforcement officers actually miss, even at close range, is astounding. I can't remember the actual details but there was an incident I read about where the police surrounded a house where a guy was armed and causing some sort of trouble. He went outside and refused to drop his weapon, intending to opt for 'suicide by cop' - getting shot by the police. The police opened fire on the guy.

They didn't allow the news to be published that every single officer missed because it would have undermined the public's confidence.


As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards laugh.gif Of course this is with a full size pistol, he wouldn't be able to hit squat with a mouse gun at that range, which is what most people carry. If there was anybody in that theater was carrying, especially a mouse gun, it would have been ineffective. So in this particular case I think an armed citizen probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 22 2012, 02:16 PM) *
I love your stories. I swear they couldn't happen to anyone else !! And prune juice as well... good job you weren't passing by the ladies sanitary aisle !! laugh.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif Yeah reading a box of tampons would've been really awkward, and would've made the situation even worse ohmy.gif This happened in an organic food store, so all the peace loving hippies would've completely lost their mind if they knew what was going on laugh.gif

QUOTE (WeePee @ Jul 22 2012, 10:21 AM) *
You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif


Bullet proof vests don't work like they do in the movies. Getting shot while wearing a vest is like getting hit by a baseball bat in the chest. It can break ribs and knock you on your bum bum.

Guns have lasers on them, so shooting in the dark with smoke might have made it easier to acquire a target. Who knows?

This is all speculation of course, but you're right, in this type of situation, nobody knows how things will turn out. More guns probably wouldn't have helped much.


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Nihilist1
post Jul 22 2012, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 06:14 PM) *
Some people say more guns are the answer, others say less guns is the solution. They're both wrong. Everyone in that theater had the opportunity to be carrying a firearm, there was nothing legally stopping them from doing so. But here's the thing, most people, and many gun owners, myself included, don't want to be walking around all the time packing heat. If I'm out with a girlfriend to have a good time, I feel just having on my person kinda ruins the vibe, you know?

Plus its not comfortable, especially if its a service size pistol. I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif

Making guns illegal also won't work, especially in the US. There are MILLIONS of guns out there now. Making them illegal will only create a black market for them. That just means more noneffective government control, just like with drugs. Also, whats the government going to do, take every one's guns away? You know, these aren't incandescent light bulbs they would be confiscating, they're guns, and I can assure you many people will use them before they give them up blink.gif



Arabia is right. Even though I don't always feel comfortable in public, I really wouldn't want to carry a gun all the time. I carry a knife and a high grade multi - tool, but I have them for utility more than anything. However, I was in fencing for a long time, so I can use that knife if it is ever necessary.

Here in the states, people would go ape$#!+ if our second amendment was revoked, and I have to admit, I might be one of them. I see my gun as a device that I can use to protect my family if someone manages to break into my house. The cops do the best they can, but their average response time is 15 minutes. A lot can happen in that time.

QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 06:36 PM) *
As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards
Bullet proof vests don't work like they do in the movies. Getting shot while wearing a vest is like getting hit by a baseball bat in the chest. It can break ribs and knock you on your bum bum.

Guns have lasers on them, so shooting in the dark with smoke might have made it easier to acquire a target. Who knows?

This is all speculation of course, but you're right, in this type of situation, nobody knows how things will turn out. More guns probably wouldn't have helped much.


Most cops are out of shape and very terrible with their firearms. The standards here in the States are slipping.

If their was smoke in the room, I don't think a laser would have done well. You would have seen it reflected back at you more than anything. Right?

More guns wouldn't have helped. I don't think so, anyway.


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Alex Feather
post Jul 22 2012, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 20 2012, 03:05 PM) *
From the state that brought us the Columbine Tragedy, another nut job has lost it and shot folks in a movie theatre.

This happens here from time to time and it makes us all sad and sick. Some jerk gets all his guns together, loses his mind and kills everyone he can aim at. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families.


It's crazy! Some people are insane! Freaking idiot! People just came to see a movie it's just so sad! You never know what to expect... Such a huge tragedy....


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XJapan
post Jul 23 2012, 04:57 AM
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The word Tragedy doesn't even properly describe this sought of incident,

I agree with Ben, when people are gonna go nuts and kill, they are going to do it,
Here in Australia we outlawed all automatic weapons after a similar incident, and we have very low gun related deaths.

I don't come from a big gun culture or the U.S so maybe I can't formulate a valid opinion on the matter, but i believe that everyone has the right to defend themselves, but you don't automatic weapons for self/home defense.
But in an alternate universe where the gun laws are stricter...this guy could of decided to BLOW up the movie theater as well, possibly killing the same amount of people or more, So i don't know.

I suppose the best you can do is pray that one day in the future people can learn to be at peace with each other, and the thought of even harming another human being or living thing would bring us all to tears.
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Nihilist1
post Jul 23 2012, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 03:57 AM) *
But in an alternate universe where the gun laws are stricter...this guy could of decided to BLOW up the movie theater as well, possibly killing the same amount of people or more, So i don't know.


Yeah. After watching the news, we can all agree that he knew how to build explosives, so that is definitely plausible.


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XJapan
post Jul 23 2012, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 23 2012, 04:16 AM) *
Yeah. After watching the news, we can all agree that he knew how to build explosives, so that is definitely plausible.


Its so crazy there are people in society like this! Didn't he come from an educated background as well? His father was a software engineer, his mother a nurse, and he had a PHD in neuroscience or something? (because you'd think someone with a highly educated background and a "good life" wouldn't even dream of doing something like this and throw it all away, killing others in the process)

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Nihilist1
post Jul 23 2012, 08:27 AM
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QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 06:42 AM) *
Its so crazy there are people in society like this! Didn't he come from an educated background as well? His father was a software engineer, his mother a nurse, and he had a PHD in neuroscience or something? (because you'd think someone with a highly educated background and a "good life" wouldn't even dream of doing something like this and throw it all away, killing others in the process)


Not necessarily. How do you think Black Metal was started? Not to mention the killings in Norway that take place a bit more than a year ago. Although every country has its problems, Norway is a really lovely place so to speak. I have never been, but data and statistics indicate that the majority is incredibly happy and the schooling there is amazing. Not to mention the extremely low crime rates and all that jazz.

His upbringing had nothing to do with it. Once you become an adult and have the ability to make decisions for yourself, the only thing that should be studied is the individual. Not the media they digested or the way they were raised. Although some of that has bearing in a criminally insane individual, there are quite a few exceptions to the rule. That is why even in the black metal community, you get people who kill each other and maim children with an axe, but there are those of us who think that type of thing is incredibly distasteful.


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XJapan
post Jul 23 2012, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 23 2012, 07:27 AM) *
Not necessarily. How do you think Black Metal was started? Not to mention the killings in Norway that take place a bit more than a year ago. Although every country has its problems, Norway is a really lovely place so to speak. I have never been, but data and statistics indicate that the majority is incredibly happy and the schooling there is amazing. Not to mention the extremely low crime rates and all that jazz.

His upbringing had nothing to do with it. Once you become an adult and have the ability to make decisions for yourself, the only thing that should be studied is the individual. Not the media they digested or the way they were raised. Although some of that has bearing in a criminally insane individual, there are quite a few exceptions to the rule. That is why even in the black metal community, you get people who kill each other and maim children with an axe, but there are those of us who think that type of thing is incredibly distasteful.


That is very true, I do think the majority of people in this crazy world we live in are good people with just values, ya know, just the other day i was buying a sandwich and wasn't quite sure what I wanted so i was asking prices on things, and this lady comes up and goes "Don't take this as an offense, but here" took my hands and gave me 10 dollars!, and i said "no no take it back i can pay" and she goes "Its ok, have whatever you want, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter", she walked off carrying some flowers leaving me with a wide open face and 10 dollars, and its not like I go out dressed like a bum or "look poor" or anything like that either!

Whatever reasons led this man to kill innocent people is beyond my train of thought, but i hope he enjoys the rest of his life and the next in prison, if he doesn't get the death penalty (Does Colorado have the death penalty?)

I couldn't even think of a plausible excuse for what he has done
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Nihilist1
post Jul 23 2012, 08:56 AM
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QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 07:47 AM) *
That is very true, I do think the majority of people in this crazy world we live in are good people with just values, ya know, just the other day i was buying a sandwich and wasn't quite sure what I wanted so i was asking prices on things, and this lady comes up and goes "Don't take this as an offense, but here" took my hands and gave me 10 dollars!, and i said "no no take it back i can pay" and she goes "Its ok, have whatever you want, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter", she walked off carrying some flowers leaving me with a wide open face and 10 dollars, and its not like I go out dressed like a bum or "look poor" or anything like that either!

Whatever reasons led this man to kill innocent people is beyond my train of thought, but i hope he enjoys the rest of his life and the next in prison, if he doesn't get the death penalty (Does Colorado have the death penalty?)

I couldn't even think of a plausible excuse for what he has done


Colorado is a hippie state, so I doubt they have the death penalty wink.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jul 23 2012, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 07:36 PM) *
As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards laugh.gif Of course this is with a full size pistol, he wouldn't be able to hit squat with a mouse gun at that range, which is what most people carry. If there was anybody in that theater was carrying, especially a mouse gun, it would have been ineffective. So in this particular case I think an armed citizen probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.


It's quite surprising when you discover that a lot of the 'enforcement' side of things of being a cop aren't actually compulsory training, like unarmed combat or anything. A cop has to take it unto himself to get any extra training he might need. So I can believe that what you mentioned.

However, what I'm getting at is regardless of an individuals skill level, that all goes out of the window in the field where the sudden adrenaline dump renders fine motor reactions useless and the time to calmly set up a shot with no immediate threat just isn't there. Even snipers who are the top of their game have to deal with a completely different scenario in situations where there's chaos, civilians, smoke etc.. I'm not saying people can't perform under pressure.. but the amount that can is very, very small.


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 24 2012, 02:13 AM
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Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 24 2012, 09:54 PM


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Nihilist1
post Jul 24 2012, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 24 2012, 01:13 AM) *
Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.

Speaking of the tether being cut, I saw a picture from Ola Englund on facebook where he had a new Tatoo. It also seemed clear that he had "track marks" and several posts were telling him "get clean"(he pulled the pic later). When folks go on the road, and leave their normal support system, sometimes bad things can happen. Not to say, if you go on the road, you'll become a junkie, anymore than if you buy a gun, you'll go nuts and shoot people. Just saying it's important to stay grounded and connected and sane.


Damn. It sucks that he has become a junkie.


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Ben Higgins
post Jul 24 2012, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 24 2012, 02:13 AM) *
Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.

Speaking of the tether being cut, I saw a picture from Ola Englund on facebook where he had a new Tatoo. It also seemed clear that he had "track marks" and several posts were telling him "get clean"(he pulled the pic later). When folks go on the road, and leave their normal support system, sometimes bad things can happen. Not to say, if you go on the road, you'll become a junkie, anymore than if you buy a gun, you'll go nuts and shoot people. Just saying it's important to stay grounded and connected and sane.


Very sensible observations here, Todd. I also believe that a lot of psychological problems arise because of the pressure of modern day living. There's so many more social pressures and external stimuli that can drive us nuts. We are simple beings at our core.. hunt, gather, sleep, procreate etc..

I also believe that people are not born good or bad or whatever. There's always contributing factors. Of course, mental disabilities or illnesses are a factor but let's take them out of the equation for a minute. Environment whilst we're growing up is a massive influence on our psyche and behavioural patterns. We've always gotta start there. Whatever people become is a direct result of what gets put in. It also depends on how the individual deals with the experiences and info that they amass during their life and how they channel it. If people's minds are fed with s*** and garbage then how can we expect them to have a healthy mind ? Unless they have the tools to purge themselves of all negative influence.. but how many of us were taught these things ? Do they teach this in school ? Of course not. We've gotta find it out as we go along. If we're lucky enough to have a fairly good environment around us with access to good information that can educate ourselves then we can often deal with the negative bombardment that imprisons so many people. Without a good support system around you though, and with nothing better to feed on than the negative environment you're in, how do you stand a chance ?

Does anybody kind of know what I mean or am I going a bit avant garde ? tongue.gif


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Nihilist1
post Jul 24 2012, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 24 2012, 07:51 AM) *
Very sensible observations here, Todd. I also believe that a lot of psychological problems arise because of the pressure of modern day living. There's so many more social pressures and external stimuli that can drive us nuts. We are simple beings at our core.. hunt, gather, sleep, procreate etc..

I also believe that people are not born good or bad or whatever. There's always contributing factors. Of course, mental disabilities or illnesses are a factor but let's take them out of the equation for a minute. Environment whilst we're growing up is a massive influence on our psyche and behavioural patterns. We've always gotta start there. Whatever people become is a direct result of what gets put in. It also depends on how the individual deals with the experiences and info that they amass during their life and how they channel it. If people's minds are fed with s*** and garbage then how can we expect them to have a healthy mind ? Unless they have the tools to purge themselves of all negative influence.. but how many of us were taught these things ? Do they teach this in school ? Of course not. We've gotta find it out as we go along. If we're lucky enough to have a fairly good environment around us with access to good information that can educate ourselves then we can often deal with the negative bombardment that imprisons so many people. Without a good support system around you though, and with nothing better to feed on than the negative environment you're in, how do you stand a chance ?

Does anybody kind of know what I mean or am I going a bit avant garde ? tongue.gif


I know exactly what you mean. I agree wholeheartedly. That was part of why I shifted toward become a bit more environmentally friendly. Whenever I am back in nature I feel whole.

Who knows, I might buy myself a farmhouse out near a forest and stream someday and survive off the land. That is kind of a dream of mine. I could even be self - sustaining and get some solar panels in order to sell energy back to the electric company.


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All the elders have fallen down...

Heal her now...

All the elders have fallen down...

Heal her now...

Grandfather elk
Turned to me
And spoke:

Light the fire deep inside.
Light the fires!

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Ben Higgins
post Jul 24 2012, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 24 2012, 09:07 AM) *
Who knows, I might buy myself a farmhouse out near a forest and stream someday and survive off the land.


I just know that would feel so good.. no modern crap and unimportant stress to worry about ! smile.gif


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