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> Mr. Spock's Applied Theory Galactic Compendium
Cosmin Lupu
post Dec 31 2012, 10:34 AM
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Hello there mate! biggrin.gif

This here is your place! Since we will tackle theory for the first tasks, I was curious if you could tell me a bit about your theoretical knowledge so far? smile.gif

It means a lot, so that I can understand where we are at the present moment smile.gif

Cosmin


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Spock
post Dec 31 2012, 10:41 AM
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I'm a little embarrassed to say I have no knowledge of theory whatsoever, I have never been trained musically with the exception of a few guitar lessons from the local rock guitarist when I was a kid, and even then, my mother essentially paid him so I could sit in the room and watch him jam.

This may be a daunting task. I guess I would like to learn exercises that would help me become faster as well as how, in my mind, I can string patterns together to improvise. I guess the building block to that is theory?

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Cosmin Lupu
post Dec 31 2012, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Dec 31 2012, 09:41 AM) *
I'm a little embarrassed to say I have no knowledge of theory whatsoever, I have never been trained musically with the exception of a few guitar lessons from the local rock guitarist when I was a kid, and even then, my mother essentially paid him so I could sit in the room and watch him jam.

This may be a daunting task. I guess I would like to learn exercises that would help me become faster as well as how, in my mind, I can string patterns together to improvise. I guess the building block to that is theory?


Always smile.gif Imagine music, as a foreign language. You can't understand what you are saying if you don't know what the words actually mean, even if you can reproduce some with a good accent even biggrin.gif True?

Now, let's begin with the major scale and a nice exercise biggrin.gif

1) We have the major scale built up using this formula: w w h w w w h.

w = whole step
h = half step

2) Any natural major scale is built after this formula. Example:

C D E F G A B C

there's a w between C and D
there's a w between D and E
there's a h between E and F
there's a w between F and G
there's a w between G and A
there's a w between A and B
there's a h between B and C

Now, if you look at your guitar, you will notice that if you play the C note (3rd fret D string) the D note is one whole step up, on the same string. That means that the note right next to the C note is C# and the note next to C # is D. So, 2 frets up means one whole step and one fret up means a half step.

3) Now, we have concluded that E is the major third in the case of C major and if we lower the major 3rd with one half step, we get the minor third and automatically, we can create a minor chord - C minor in our case.

Here are the formulas:

1 3 5 - major chord formula. Example: C E G
1 b3 5 - minor chord formula. Example: C Eb G

4) If you know these now , please tell me how does the D major scale look like - what are the notes making it up. (Use the w w h w w w h formula, starting from D) and tell me the notes making up the D major and D minor chords

What do you think mate?

Cosmin


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Spock
post Dec 31 2012, 01:40 PM
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I don't know this stuff Cosmin, I mean I know where it sounds good to go a full step in some places and a 1/2 step in others depending on what is being played, but I have never seen it written down like this so thank you so much for your time.

Let me marinate my brain on this for a bit and I will attempt to give you an answer.
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Spock
post Jan 1 2013, 11:52 AM
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Good morning Cosmin. I am now pondering this, and I understand for the most part and will answer your question 4-D once I work it out in my head.

But, I do not understand what is meant by "we concluded that E is the major third in the case of C major"?

How did we conclude this? And, what exactly does major third mean? I know that in standard tuning the top open string is "E", is that what you are talking about?
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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 1 2013, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Jan 1 2013, 10:52 AM) *
Good morning Cosmin. I am now pondering this, and I understand for the most part and will answer your question 4-D once I work it out in my head.

But, I do not understand what is meant by "we concluded that E is the major third in the case of C major"?

How did we conclude this? And, what exactly does major third mean? I know that in standard tuning the top open string is "E", is that what you are talking about?


Hey mate! Well, in the C major scale we have C D E F G A B C, right? If we would give numbers to each letter, we would discover that each step of the scale or scale degree - each one of the notes above can have a number assigned. Form 1 to 8

Now in C major - 3 is E, right? And we know that 3 is a third and we also know that since the scale is major, we will have a major third included in its structure smile.gif

If we regard the notes in respect to the C note in the C major scale:

C-D - second
C-E - major third
C-F - perfect fourth
C-G - perfect 5th
C-A - major sixth
C-B - major seventh
C-C - octave

These are the intervals smile.gif Please tell me if it's clear now wink.gif

Cosmin


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Spock
post Jan 2 2013, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Dec 31 2012, 06:16 AM) *
4) If you know these now , please tell me how does the D major scale look like - what are the notes making it up. (Use the w w h w w w h formula, starting from D) and tell me the notes making up the D major and D minor chords



Okay, here goes:

Formula is: w w h w w w h

And if there is no E#/Fb or B#/Cb

Major D Scale: D (w) E (w) F# (h) G (w) A (w) B (w) C# (h) D

I am not sure how to figure the D minor chords though? Would those be the F and C? And if so why? I just picked those because they were the notes skipped in the progression.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 2 2013, 03:41 PM
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Hehe! Yes! We have a winner - it's the correct formula and the right notes! Very good work mate - now for the minor chords smile.gif

As I stated a while ago in the longer post, the minor chord triad formula (triad = 3 sounds biggrin.gif) is 1 b3 5. b3 = Flat 3rd and it's nothing else but the major third in the major chord formula lowered with a half step. What would D minor look like in this case?

You said D (1) F (b3) - the normal 3rd was F# so it means we have lowered it with one half step and we get the F, as you have correctly assumed and there's the 5th left - which is the 5th in the D major scale? smile.gif


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Spock
post Jan 2 2013, 05:26 PM
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A is the 5th in the Major scale.

The Minor D triad would be: D F A

How does this effect the pattern w w h w w w h (?) Because now we are at (up to the A) w h w w

To complete the minor scale by going down a half step on the major 3rd, do we also go down a half step on the major 6th?

Or am I starting to have a mental breakdown?

I'm trying to make sense of this in my head without looking at the scale generator. I believe if I get it to make sense to me I'll be able to grasp it and use it practically. I've looked at scales millions of times and never understood them for anything except as you say, another language.

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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 2 2013, 09:30 PM
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Your assumption is correct again mate wink.gif No sweat - I promise you will master these things in a pretty short while - in your head that is, for the hands, well, it'll take a while longer, but hey - that's the whole fun biggrin.gif

Check it out the minor scale formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8 - that means that if you want to obtain a minor scale out of a major one, you just apply this formula and you have it. In the case of D major to D minor :

D major - D E F# A B C# D (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)

D minor - D E F G A Bb C D (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8)

Now if you tell me what major scale has the exact same notes as the D minor scale BUT re-arranged so that they would fit the w w h w w w h formula, you are onto something big here biggrin.gif

Cosmin


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Spock
post Jan 3 2013, 12:19 AM
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Okay, so I am going to have to work this out like math equation somehow...

So we have:

D E F G A Bb C D
w h w w h w w


Just by looking at the formation of the pattern above, it appears the pattern moves forward, so seeing how the next note in the pattern which would restart it to w w h w w w h would be an "F", right?


F G A Bb C D E F
w w h w w w h
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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 3 2013, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Jan 2 2013, 11:19 PM) *
Okay, so I am going to have to work this out like math equation somehow...

So we have:

D E F G A Bb C D
w h w w h w w


Just by looking at the formation of the pattern above, it appears the pattern moves forward, so seeing how the next note in the pattern which would restart it to w w h w w w h would be an "F", right?


F G A Bb C D E F
w w h w w w h



Absolutely true! biggrin.gif There's a catch here smile.gif D minor is F major's relative minor scale - they share the same notes but they start from a different note. It's actually a mode of the major scale, called the Aeolian mode, but later on about this smile.gif

Anyway - can you discover how you could say which is the relative minor in a major scale, based on the note on which is starts? Let's try and draw this conclusion in the following manner - let's take the G major scale and the E major scale - write them down and then, can you find their relative minor scales? smile.gif

Please let me know if there are any questions biggrin.gif I am really enjoying this biggrin.gif

Cosmin


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Spock
post Jan 3 2013, 10:05 PM
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Okay, following the (w w h w w w h) pattern I have to look at the notes on the fretboard to know what they are:

G Major Scale:

G A B C D E F# G
w w h w w w h


E Major Scale:

E F# G# A B C# D# E
w w h w w w h


Understand that F#=Gb, G#=Ab, C#=Db, D#=Eb

and Relative means "Considered in relation or in proportion to something else"

Both those Scales have the F#/Gb

So G Flat Minor would be the relative minor?

Gb Ab A B Db D E Gb (?)

Are there more? If yes, let me know so I can try to figure them out.



BWT - there is no way in hell my brain will allow me to consider this stuff while playing, I have drank waaaaay too much in my life to fire on all those cylinders.
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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 4 2013, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Jan 3 2013, 09:05 PM) *
Okay, following the (w w h w w w h) pattern I have to look at the notes on the fretboard to know what they are:

G Major Scale:

G A B C D E F# G
w w h w w w h


E Major Scale:

E F# G# A B C# D# E
w w h w w w h

Understand that F#=Gb, G#=Ab, C#=Db, D#=Eb


Up to the point above, your assumptions are very correct wink.gif

Now, the relationship between the # and b are called enharmonic relationships - meaning that one sound shares two names, in respect to a certain context.

The relative minor of any major scale is found on the 6th scale degree - for instance: In F major = F G A Bb C D E F the 6th step is D so the D minor scale is the relative minor scale of the F major scale, as you have deduced in an earlier post wink.gif

Now, which would be G major and E major's relative minor scales? biggrin.gif

Don't worry, they will come natural after exercising biggrin.gif

Cosmin


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Spock
post Jan 4 2013, 09:48 AM
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Oh, well in that case then:

G Major Relative Minor: E

E Major Relative Minor: Db


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 4 2013, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Jan 4 2013, 08:48 AM) *
Oh, well in that case then:

G Major Relative Minor: E

E Major Relative Minor: Db


Correct, with one little observation - you already have D# in E major so you want to call it C# instead of Db wink.gif right? Because you can't have
E F# G# A B Db D# E biggrin.gif focus on this aspect and let's see the formulas for Amajor and B major, their relative minors and the major and minor chords - B major/ minor and A major/ minor!


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Spock
post Jan 4 2013, 10:20 AM
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Okay, I'll get back with you in a bit on this.

That was my next question though, when do we decide whether to call a note sharp or flat? I just put Db because I think we started off calling them flats in the thread. Is it just to stick with how you wrote it first?

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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 4 2013, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Jan 4 2013, 09:20 AM) *
Okay, I'll get back with you in a bit on this.

That was my next question though, when do we decide whether to call a note sharp or flat? I just put Db because I think we started off calling them flats in the thread. Is it just to stick with how you wrote it first?


smile.gif Good question - usually you have to pay attention to respect the formula of a major scale or a minor scale - if you have a note that appears to be doubled - just like in the example above, you can modify the b or # so that you have no doubles - each note appears once smile.gif Later on, some exceptions might appear wink.gif


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Spock
post Jan 4 2013, 04:07 PM
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Okay cool. I just got to work, so I'll get back on the last question in a bit.

I sure do appreciate all your help and input Cosmin!

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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 4 2013, 08:10 PM
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Nothing to it man! It's a pleasure because it's interactive and I'm not the only one doing the talking - it's nice to receive feedback and see progress arising out of it biggrin.gif


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