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The Professor
post Jan 8 2013, 09:17 PM
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Hey Everyone

Just starting a thread to talk about guitar and music theory.

If you have a question about scales, modes, chord building, intervals, reading music, what's a cadence, sharps and flats, or anything you can think of related to music or guitar theory, go ahead and post it here and we can come up with fun and easy to understand answers to those questions.

So go ahead and fire away with your guitar and music theory related questions!


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 8 2013, 09:55 PM
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Great idea Matt! smile.gif


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PosterBoy
post Jan 9 2013, 07:57 AM
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Hi Matt nice to see you here

I'm currently studying triads, taking Tomo Fujita's advice and learning them on string sets, and then superimposing them to get extended chords.

I'm hoping it helps me around the fretboard a little more, get me out of positional playing and will be a good foundation to tackle Ted Greene style chord melody

It might help me make all the samey music at church a little more interesting too!


One thing I'm interested in learning well is functional harmony and chord substitutions (I know a few basic things). Even though I don't play jazz, I'd love to look at it and see how I could incorporate it into the styles and music I do play.

This post has been edited by PosterBoy: Jan 9 2013, 08:02 AM


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The Professor
post Jan 9 2013, 10:04 AM
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Very cool man. There are a ton of ways to dig into triads, and Ted's superimposition material is great for building big chords by working triads and avoiding large-scale fingerings.

A few things to look at, which you might have already, are inner triads.

So, if you have Cmaj7, you can play an Em triad to bring out that sound. Cmaj7 is C E G B, and so there is a C triad, CEG, and an Em triad, EGB, found within that chord.

If you want to play C6, you can try an Am triad instead. C6 is spelled C E G A, so there is a C triad, CEG and an Am triad, ACE, found within that chord.

One thing I like that Ted does with triads, and this expands out to the rock and fusion worlds as well, is the use of spread triads.

Try checking out fingerings for triads like these for C, great sound and fun way to expand on triads without going beyond 3 notes.

x35x5x = Root position

x710x8x = 1st inversion

x1014x13x = 2nd inversion

So you take the second note of each inversion and pop it up an octave to get a spread-voicing triad. Fun stuff!


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PosterBoy
post Jan 9 2013, 11:16 AM
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Those Spread triads are like the ones Eric Johnson and Neil Zaza use aren't they


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The Professor
post Jan 9 2013, 11:20 AM
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yeah, a lot of people love those shapes. They are a great way to play a triad, but make it sound a little hipper than just a normal triad grip.

And with the exception of a few stretches they aren't that tough to grab on the guitar, very cool sounds.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 9 2013, 12:07 PM
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Great initiative Matt smile.gif It's always nice to explore triads in as many unconventional positions as possible, using voicings. I for one, found a lot of interesting chord shapes that way, in order to make my sound as personal as possible. Guess there's a lot to work on there, but this adds to it smile.gif


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The Professor
post Jan 9 2013, 05:06 PM
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For sure, I find that if I can just take something as simple looking as a triad and come up with different fingerings for it, it not only pushes me in new directions harmonically, but the fretboard opens up to new shapes and sounds I had never thought about before.

there's a great quote by jazz guitarist Jim Hall that goes something like, "I'd rather know one shape and apply it to 100 situations, then know 100 ways to outline one shape."


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PosterBoy
post Jan 9 2013, 10:11 PM
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I'll share the my triad fretboard diagrams as I make them.


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The Professor
post Jan 9 2013, 10:36 PM
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cool thanks!


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The Professor
post Jan 10 2013, 09:52 AM
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For those looking to check out those spread voicing triads mentioned earlier, here's a link to some fingerings and exercises on those shapes.


http://fretterverse.com/2012/04/10/expand-...voicing-triads/


Check them out. Not too hard to grab on the fretboard, but a fun way to expand your triad knowledge and application while sounding hip at the same time.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 10 2013, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (Matt Warnock Guitar @ Jan 9 2013, 04:06 PM) *
For sure, I find that if I can just take something as simple looking as a triad and come up with different fingerings for it, it not only pushes me in new directions harmonically, but the fretboard opens up to new shapes and sounds I had never thought about before.

there's a great quote by jazz guitarist Jim Hall that goes something like, "I'd rather know one shape and apply it to 100 situations, then know 100 ways to outline one shape."


Well said! smile.gif


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klasaine
post Jan 10 2013, 06:22 PM
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When I was teenager I had no idea about diads or playing the cool 'spread' voicings Matt has mentioned. But I played in bands relatively early and the piano players and lead guitarists and even bass players would tell me, "what your playing is correct but do less of it - hit fewer notes in those chords". So my 'personal' solution was just to mute a few of the strings/notes in the chord shapes I knew. To this day I still do that even though I now consciously know what group of 3 notes I want/need to play.

I studied with Ted Greene a bit. Here's some very cool pages of 'Ted' chords http://tedgreene.com/teaching/chords.asp The smaller voicings are usually labeled Two Note Comping or Chord Hearts. These are all small download PDFs.

You can also learn a lot about effective guitar comping by studying just one hand of a piano player (usually the right hand).
For example a very common C13 voicing for a piano player (as well as a horn section) is Bb E A D G C low to high.
677788 on guitar, low string to high string. Just take a piece of that - the top 3 or 4 strings maybe or the middle strings. When you play with a piano player and/or another guitarist you don't need roots, 5ths or even thirds sometimes. 50% of the time I'll even leave out the b7 in a real 13th chord - because I know someone else is gonna get it (usually).

Great topic!

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 10 2013, 06:32 PM


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PosterBoy
post Jan 10 2013, 06:27 PM
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Klasaine, you studied with Ted, I'm so jealous of you. I love watching what we have of his teachings and seminars on you tube, a lot goes over my head, but some of it goes in. You can watch them over and over again and take something different away.

The man was a true genius


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klasaine
post Jan 10 2013, 06:39 PM
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Yeah, Ted was something else let me tell you.
Anyone who's sat in front of TG when he was playing comes away with the same impression ... this is the best guitar player in the world and one of the finest musicians ever.
Unfortunately he recorded only two records of which only one was released officially and though the video stuff is cool from a pedagogical perspective it really doesn't showcase him in the best light - the sound is bad, the light is bad, since most of it is seminars he stops in the middle of tunes, focuses on addressing a question, etc. But it's all we have left and it's great that we have that website to take advantage of.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 10 2013, 06:40 PM


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The Professor
post Jan 10 2013, 06:46 PM
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Very cool stuff, Ted's site is a goldmine of information! Lucky guy to have studied with him. He left us way too early.

It's cool to watch Ted play in his YouTube videos. Sometimes you see him playing crazy stretched voicings, but then he'll play something that sounds totally hip and you realize it's just diads with a color note added on top. But he makes it sounds so full and sweet!


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The Professor
post Jan 10 2013, 07:23 PM
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To keep things going on triads, there are some great 3-note chords you can build by just altering one note of the three in any triad.

Normally a triad is 1-3-5, so C E G for example is a C major triad.

But, you can spice things up by moving any note in that group up to the next chord tone.

So you could get chords like

D E G - 2 3 5 Like a Sus2 or add9 sound

C F G - 1 45 Like a Sus4 or m11 sound

C E A - 1 3 6 like a maj6 chord


Or even move two around

D F G - 2 4 5

C F A - 1 4 6

Or other combos.

Anyone checked these kinds of triad based chords out yet? What do you think?


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klasaine
post Jan 11 2013, 02:39 AM
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It's interesting that when you start to limit your note count you actually increase their usefulness and application possibilities. That sort of references Matt's Jim Hall quote.

Here's a cool 'modern' ii - V - I in C major utilizing three notes per chord.
Dm11: GCF xx556x
G7b9b5: Ab Db F xx666x
Cmaj13: ADG xx778x

Now lets extrapolate that to a nice, mod iii VI ii V I
*I'm not writing all the extensions on the changes, just the basic functional name of the chord.

Em - xx778x
A7 - xx888x
Dm - xx556x
A7 - xx666x
C - xx955x (or, xx778x ... you notice the C and Em are the same collection of notes)

Extra Credit: Here's something that's REALLY important to understand.
This collection of notes: x x 12 12 12 x - DGB can function as several different chords depending on the context.
It can be a type of : Cmajor, Dsus, Em7, Falt, G, A maj or min11, Bm(#5). The following are pretty esoteric - C#alt/dom, Ebmaj7#5 ... then, just altering note of the three can completely change everything. It's endless once you start factoring in various bass notes, what a keyboard player might play and then the melody note(s) on top. Try not to think of this as confusing or complicated - it's 'liberating' ... 3 notes and I can do all that. Again, the Jim Hall quote comes to mind.

Are any of you guys here hip to Mick Goodrick's book 'The Advancing Guitarist'?
Without a doubt one of the most important books ever written for guitarists.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 11 2013, 04:48 AM


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The Professor
post Jan 11 2013, 08:27 AM
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I love those three-note chords that you showed.

One version that Joe Diorio showed me way back when I was in school was to plane them across the neck, get's a very cool "slippery" sound, and only uses one shape for the ii V I progression

Dm7 xx556x - Dm11 sound
G7 xx889x - G7alt sound
Cmaj7 xx778x - C6 sound


Fun way of taking one shape and moving it around the neck to get 3 different chord sounds.


I also like moving one note at a time from a 3 note chord to walk through a progression, like:

Dm7 xx756x
G7 xx746x
Cmaj7 xx745x

So Dm7 is A C F, G7 is A B F and Cmaj7 is A B E, one note changes per chord, easy to play and outlines the harmony. Fun stuff!

BTW Mick's book is a must have for any serious guitarist, great volume of material.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 11 2013, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE (Matt Warnock Guitar @ Jan 10 2013, 06:23 PM) *
To keep things going on triads, there are some great 3-note chords you can build by just altering one note of the three in any triad.

Normally a triad is 1-3-5, so C E G for example is a C major triad.

But, you can spice things up by moving any note in that group up to the next chord tone.

So you could get chords like

D E G - 2 3 5 Like a Sus2 or add9 sound

C F G - 1 45 Like a Sus4 or m11 sound

C E A - 1 3 6 like a maj6 chord


Or even move two around

D F G - 2 4 5

C F A - 1 4 6

Or other combos.

Anyone checked these kinds of triad based chords out yet? What do you think?


I use them all the time and I always like to make people aware of the fact that you should be able to have a good grasp on the orientation of intervals on the neck so that you may build up chords such as these without thinking too much.


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