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> Question On Alternate Picking - String Changing, Finally put a video about it on YT!
dairwolf
post Jan 12 2013, 04:15 PM
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Hey everyone!

I finally did a video about my picking technique problems. The quality is crappy and at some points there´s a logo right in the middle of the screen, but as long as it serves the purpose, I am fine with that!

I think that a lot of players do have the same problem as I have, so please watch this video and give me some feedback!!





Thanks, Tobi

This post has been edited by dairwolf: Jan 12 2013, 04:17 PM
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PosterBoy
post Jan 12 2013, 05:17 PM
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What you are doing is essentially correct, though over emphasising the motion, also try twisting your wrist a little more after the playing the initial string so the tip of the pick goes away from you to help cross the string it might make it a more efficient movement and therefore quicker, also you have a lot of pick below the string.

I wrote this whilst away from a guitar, so had to imagine myself playing

This post has been edited by PosterBoy: Jan 12 2013, 05:18 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 12 2013, 06:46 PM
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Hi mate! That's a really cool video! And your problem is what makes Alternate Picking difficult... crossing strings. There are two ways to cross strings. One is Outside Picking and the other is Inside Picking.

Here you have an explanation of each way and really cool exercises: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...t=0#entry576899

Some guitar players find Outsides easier and some other Insides. I personally can play much faster and more comfortable if I use Inside picking.

Based on your video, you are not doing something wrong, the movement should come from your wrist and when you change string you have to high the less possible and keep on practising a lot!



Off course there are some exceptions. Michael Angel Batio also moves his finger and has a very unique way of playing alternate picking:



and then you have guys like Frank Gambale that use Economy Picking, that means that he always cross strings with Sweep Picking.



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dairwolf
post Jan 13 2013, 01:03 AM
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Thank you very much for your responses!

QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Jan 12 2013, 05:17 PM) *
What you are doing is essentially correct, though over emphasising the motion, also try twisting your wrist a little more after the playing the initial string so the tip of the pick goes away from you to help cross the string it might make it a more efficient movement and therefore quicker, also you have a lot of pick below the string.


I don´t really understand what you mean by " try twisting your wrist a little more after the playing the initial string so the tip of the pick goes away from you". In what direction will it turn away from me? Can you upload a photo or video explaining it?

And you are right, I do have a lot of the pick under the string. The problem is that if I don´t have it that way I often miss the string, but I´ll work on that.

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jan 12 2013, 06:46 PM) *
Based on your video, you are not doing something wrong, the movement should come from your wrist and when you change string you have to high the less possible and keep on practising a lot!


So my analogy of the muscle you need to tap on the table is actually right? Am I using the right muscle to get the pick up? Or is there any other way to get the pick in the right angle while ONLY moving the pick from the wrist?

Just some moments ago I tried getting the tip of the pick at the right angle for string changes with some other movements. One was the movement that Michael Angelo Batio does, the one from the index finger and the thumb. My problem with this is that I want to use the same technique for all picking cases, so I don´t want to switch back and forth between the index finger and thumb movement and the wrist movement.

Another thing i tried was leaning the pick forward (so that the pick of the tip goes up automatically). I noticed that this way you can do upstrokes WITHOUT having to lift the pick, but you still need it for downstrokes. However, that´s HALF the number of the up and down movement. My problem with this again is that the sound of upstrokes and downstrokes differs too much.
(I also wondered if Paul Gilbert leans the pick forward like that?)

Argh! It´s maddening!
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 13 2013, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (dairwolf @ Jan 12 2013, 09:03 PM) *
Thank you very much for your responses!



I don´t really understand what you mean by " try twisting your wrist a little more after the playing the initial string so the tip of the pick goes away from you". In what direction will it turn away from me? Can you upload a photo or video explaining it?

And you are right, I do have a lot of the pick under the string. The problem is that if I don´t have it that way I often miss the string, but I´ll work on that.



So my analogy of the muscle you need to tap on the table is actually right? Am I using the right muscle to get the pick up? Or is there any other way to get the pick in the right angle while ONLY moving the pick from the wrist?

Just some moments ago I tried getting the tip of the pick at the right angle for string changes with some other movements. One was the movement that Michael Angelo Batio does, the one from the index finger and the thumb. My problem with this is that I want to use the same technique for all picking cases, so I don´t want to switch back and forth between the index finger and thumb movement and the wrist movement.

Another thing i tried was leaning the pick forward (so that the pick of the tip goes up automatically). I noticed that this way you can do upstrokes WITHOUT having to lift the pick, but you still need it for downstrokes. However, that´s HALF the number of the up and down movement. My problem with this again is that the sound of upstrokes and downstrokes differs too much.
(I also wondered if Paul Gilbert leans the pick forward like that?)

Argh! It´s maddening!



Well, based on what the great guitar player do, we can say that there is not a correct way for playing, you will always find exceptions for everything so the best recommendation is that you should do what feels better for you. One important thing that you said is: " I want to use the same technique for all picking cases". This is the best thing that you can do if you want to be able to switch from one technique to the other smoothly. So I think that you should go for the way that seems more effective at first for you, and try to keep this way of playing for every picking type.



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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 13 2013, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jan 13 2013, 01:11 AM) *
Well, based on what the great guitar player do, we can say that there is not a correct way for playing, you will always find exceptions for everything so the best recommendation is that you should do what feels better for you. One important thing that you said is: " I want to use the same technique for all picking cases". This is the best thing that you can do if you want to be able to switch from one technique to the other smoothly. So I think that you should go for the way that seems more effective at first for you, and try to keep this way of playing for every picking type.


I agree with Gabe on this and I think that in his first post he summed up things as well. Now, the way I am doing it is trying to have a firm grip on the pick and have a very relaxed wrist while playing. Try to maintain this posture/ feeling at slow and fast speed and work from the wrist.

Each one of us has a slightly different approach, because we are different as players and human beings. Look at how Marty Friedman holds his pick and then look at Guthrie Govan - they are both great players but you can't say that one of them is doing things wrong because he has a different way to do them smile.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 16 2013, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jan 13 2013, 04:52 AM) *
I agree with Gabe on this and I think that in his first post he summed up things as well. Now, the way I am doing it is trying to have a firm grip on the pick and have a very relaxed wrist while playing. Try to maintain this posture/ feeling at slow and fast speed and work from the wrist.

Each one of us has a slightly different approach, because we are different as players and human beings. Look at how Marty Friedman holds his pick and then look at Guthrie Govan - they are both great players but you can't say that one of them is doing things wrong because he has a different way to do them smile.gif



Talking about this... let me recommend dairwolf to read Guthrie's books "Creative Guitar I and II". These ones are a must for every modern electric guitar player.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 16 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jan 16 2013, 11:57 AM) *
Talking about this... let me recommend dairwolf to read Guthrie's books "Creative Guitar I and II". These ones are a must for every modern electric guitar player.



I strongly back up Gabe's recommendation - Guthrie's books are like a Bible smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jan 17 2013, 04:01 AM
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Todd here smile.gif I think a VIDEO might be worth a thousand words here smile.gif I've recorded a quick little example of alternate picking while traversing strings. I start slow and speed up. Notice the following

1.) I over exaggerate the picking motion going slowly, then when speeding up, I reduce the distance the pick travels away from the string.

2.)I'm not "digging in" too deep. E.g. Letting the pick tip/point go to far below the string and towards the body of the guitar.

3.)I'm picking from the wrist (never from the elbow or shoulder)

4.)I'm using a really sharp pick (sharpened with a boot knife) so the point of contact between string and pick is as small as possible, only the very tip hits the strings.

5.)I"m using a really THICK pick as well. 1.5 MM clayton. Thin picks have flex, during training/learning, a thicker pick can help your hand understand what it needs to do IMHO. You can always go back to thin pick later smile.gif

Here is the vid.










QUOTE (dairwolf @ Jan 12 2013, 10:15 AM) *
Hey everyone!

I finally did a video about my picking technique problems. The quality is crappy and at some points there´s a logo right in the middle of the screen, but as long as it serves the purpose, I am fine with that!

I think that a lot of players do have the same problem as I have, so please watch this video and give me some feedback!!





Thanks, Tobi



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 17 2013, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 17 2013, 12:01 AM) *
Todd here smile.gif I think a VIDEO might be worth a thousand words here smile.gif I've recorded a quick little example of alternate picking while traversing strings. I start slow and speed up. Notice the following

1.) I over exaggerate the picking motion going slowly, then when speeding up, I reduce the distance the pick travels away from the string.

2.)I'm not "digging in" too deep. E.g. Letting the pick tip/point go to far below the string and towards the body of the guitar.

3.)I'm picking from the wrist (never from the elbow or shoulder)

4.)I'm using a really sharp pick (sharpened with a boot knife) so the point of contact between string and pick is as small as possible, only the very tip hits the strings.

5.)I"m using a really THICK pick as well. 1.5 MM clayton. Thin picks have flex, during training/learning, a thicker pick can help your hand understand what it needs to do IMHO. You can always go back to thin pick later smile.gif

Here is the vid.



Great video Todd! Your picking is KILLER. smile.gif


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dark dude
post Jan 17 2013, 10:06 PM
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The more the pick falls inbetween the strings, the higher your 'hop' or 'jump' will have to be. So my first tip is:

1) Don't lower the pick into the strings any lower than you have to (i.e. for contact to occur when you pick up and down).

Also, it's important to pick from your wrist. If you start to move the fingers holding the pick about as your wrist is moving, you will get inconsistent movements, which you do not want when you're trying to control your picking.

Gaining speed is also a matter of making your picking movements as efficient as possible, i.e. you try to get as little resistance from the strings as possible as you're not dropping it into the strings too much, you're not over-shooting the string you just hit by so much that you waste time coming back from your initial hit, etc. So my second and third tips are:

2) Pick from the wrist.

3) Play efficientily.

Lastly, you need to play with your wrist, hand, arm relaxed. Obviously there will be some tension, but you must make that as small as possible. With relaxed picking you'll find that your stamina will improve and so should your accuracy, as you're not tensing up muscles which will cause small movements, causing you to pick slightly differently.

4) Play with a relaxed picking technique.

Over time you will build the stamina in your picking hand, so start slowly and play accurately and you'll reap the rewards a lot sooner. You may also avoid an injury or two wink.gif

NB: I've just seen Todd's post and have noted that my points are very similar, so I'm sure his tips will improve your picking.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 18 2013, 09:54 AM
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Great input from Todd and Adam!

I would also add the fact that you should learn how to de-tension your right hand WHILE playing - as darkdude (Adam) pointed out, there will be tension, but in time you will learn how to become conscious when this occurs and relax your hand while picking. It's a great asset to every player and it will save you from a lot of situations.

When you feel tension, try loosen up the wrist and focus on minimal movement so you can continue playing smile.gif Try it and let me know how it feels


Cosmin


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Todd Simpson
post Jan 18 2013, 03:55 PM
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Well said COS!!!!! I"m always banging on about this in Video Chat saying "Stay Loose!! Play Fast!!!" smile.gif

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jan 18 2013, 03:54 AM) *
Great input from Todd and Adam!

I would also add the fact that you should learn how to de-tension your right hand WHILE playing - as darkdude (Adam) pointed out, there will be tension, but in time you will learn how to become conscious when this occurs and relax your hand while picking. It's a great asset to every player and it will save you from a lot of situations.

When you feel tension, try loosen up the wrist and focus on minimal movement so you can continue playing smile.gif Try it and let me know how it feels


Cosmin



Great minds think alike they say! smile.gif Good tips here man!

QUOTE (dark dude @ Jan 17 2013, 04:06 PM) *
The more the pick falls inbetween the strings, the higher your 'hop' or 'jump' will have to be. So my first tip is:

1) Don't lower the pick into the strings any lower than you have to (i.e. for contact to occur when you pick up and down).

Also, it's important to pick from your wrist. If you start to move the fingers holding the pick about as your wrist is moving, you will get inconsistent movements, which you do not want when you're trying to control your picking.

Gaining speed is also a matter of making your picking movements as efficient as possible, i.e. you try to get as little resistance from the strings as possible as you're not dropping it into the strings too much, you're not over-shooting the string you just hit by so much that you waste time coming back from your initial hit, etc. So my second and third tips are:

2) Pick from the wrist.

3) Play efficientily.

Lastly, you need to play with your wrist, hand, arm relaxed. Obviously there will be some tension, but you must make that as small as possible. With relaxed picking you'll find that your stamina will improve and so should your accuracy, as you're not tensing up muscles which will cause small movements, causing you to pick slightly differently.

4) Play with a relaxed picking technique.

Over time you will build the stamina in your picking hand, so start slowly and play accurately and you'll reap the rewards a lot sooner. You may also avoid an injury or two wink.gif

NB: I've just seen Todd's post and have noted that my points are very similar, so I'm sure his tips will improve your picking.



Thanks man!!! As they say it's "All in the wrist" smile.gif

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jan 17 2013, 05:11 AM) *
Great video Todd! Your picking is KILLER. smile.gif



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dairwolf
post Jan 18 2013, 07:51 PM
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Thank you all very much for your answers!


"Dipping" my pick in too much is a problem I noticed before, but I just can´t seem to get rid of it. When I try to avoid it I sometimes miss the string I want to pick. I´ll guess I´ll just try to make the distances smaller.

As for the uo and down movement of the pick I have to say I still don´t get it. I tried experimenting with different techniques to get the pick up and down again. I came up with some combinations like

1. Do upstrokes by rotating the wrist (lifting the root of the thumb) and moving from the wrist, so I don´t need to rely on the up and down movement of the hand I described in the video for upstrokes, then do downstrokes with that up and down movement (hopping)

2. Play upstrokes with the thumb and index finger movement (Like Micheal Angelo Bation does) and do downstrokes with the hopping motion

But I don´t really feel confident with either combination.

I acutally found a guy who is brilliant at picking. He does it like I want to do it, by just moving the pick from side to side (movement from the wrist). In some magical way that still eludes me, he manages to get the pick high enough to change strings.




He does have some other videos where he shows the slow picking hand, too, but the one I chose here serves the purpose. The thing that baffles me the most is how he can do the 1-1 string change and also WHERE the up and down motion comes from... no matter how often I watch it, I don´t get it.

This post has been edited by dairwolf: Jan 18 2013, 07:52 PM
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Bossie
post Jan 18 2013, 08:05 PM
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What really helped me was resting the pink an/or ringfinger on the scratchplate...it automatically gave me the right distance
to the strings and kept me on the right distance of the strings..it kept me from digging in to deep sometimes....and it gave me extra support.
But it's different for everybody ...
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dark dude
post Jan 19 2013, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (Bossie @ Jan 18 2013, 07:05 PM) *
What really helped me was resting the pink an/or ringfinger on the scratchplate...it automatically gave me the right distance
to the strings and kept me on the right distance of the strings..it kept me from digging in to deep sometimes....and it gave me extra support.
But it's different for everybody ...

Yes, I've done this in the past, too.

You don't have to stick with it either, if you don't want to always play with a finger stuck on the body or pickup, just practice a bit so that your hand learns the correct height, then remove the supporting finger. Just like you would with stabilisers on a bike.


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jstcrsn
post Jan 19 2013, 03:04 AM
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some times it helps me to start with less picking to get my ear timing correct ( training your ear is as important as training your fingers) , once I have that I can start to pick every note



and try to make todd's chats


and here 's another one



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 19 2013, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jan 18 2013, 11:04 PM) *
some times it helps me to start with less picking to get my ear timing correct ( training your ear is as important as training your fingers) , once I have that I can start to pick every note



and try to make todd's chats



If you guys check Paul's right hand there is not big secret... there are two things to note: the pick's angle, and the movement that comes from his wrist. He is the king of Alternate Picking! biggrin.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jan 21 2013, 08:47 AM
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BINGO!!! smile.gif That's what I was trying to show you in my video actually. He has a much better angle on the camera and his technique is great smile.gif The SECRET is doing what he is doing SLOWLY. Then practice your brains out.

He's doing all the tips/tricks shared earlier and doing it well smile.gif Just doing it fast. You'll get there.

Todd



QUOTE (dairwolf @ Jan 18 2013, 01:51 PM) *
Thank you all very much for your answers!


"Dipping" my pick in too much is a problem I noticed before, but I just can´t seem to get rid of it. When I try to avoid it I sometimes miss the string I want to pick. I´ll guess I´ll just try to make the distances smaller.

As for the uo and down movement of the pick I have to say I still don´t get it. I tried experimenting with different techniques to get the pick up and down again. I came up with some combinations like

1. Do upstrokes by rotating the wrist (lifting the root of the thumb) and moving from the wrist, so I don´t need to rely on the up and down movement of the hand I described in the video for upstrokes, then do downstrokes with that up and down movement (hopping)

2. Play upstrokes with the thumb and index finger movement (Like Micheal Angelo Bation does) and do downstrokes with the hopping motion

But I don´t really feel confident with either combination.

I acutally found a guy who is brilliant at picking. He does it like I want to do it, by just moving the pick from side to side (movement from the wrist). In some magical way that still eludes me, he manages to get the pick high enough to change strings.




He does have some other videos where he shows the slow picking hand, too, but the one I chose here serves the purpose. The thing that baffles me the most is how he can do the 1-1 string change and also WHERE the up and down motion comes from... no matter how often I watch it, I don´t get it.



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dairwolf
post Jan 22 2013, 01:57 PM
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Thank you all very much for your responses.

The video by Paul Gilbert about the van Halen style lick is pretty cool, I didn´t know that one yet.

I actually noticed something. I might have been practicing my problem movement in a wrong way.
What I did until now was the following: Set the metronome to a certain tempo (I think my maximum speed was somewhere around 120 BPM, four notes per beat), then practice the move for a couple of minutes. So basically I did it like this:

(random strings)

G--0----0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0-----------------------
D----0----0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---------------------

and on and on and on...

Now the thing I noticed is this: You hardly ever need to do that specific movement as long as this at a high tempo (let´s say 200BPM), right?
For example, in the famous Paul Gilbert lick, there are actually three strings skips.



G-------------9--------------------
D--9-10-12-----12-10-9--------

There are other cases where you have to play four fast string skips in a row (for example going down the pentatonic in steps of three).

However, the point I am trying to make is this:

I think that praciticing fast string changes in a "bursting" manner is better than going for stamina because you hardly ever need to play five, six or even more string changes very fast, right?

So what I am trying to practice now is this: doing two, three or four string changes, then a very short break, and then repeat. Do you know what I mean? I´d really like to know what you think about it and how you practice it.

Finally, I´d like to know if someone knows a good exercise if I have the following problem: When I am practicing fast string changes, I actually don´t really know whether I am hitting a string unintendedly or not because of the high tempo! In other words, I don´t know if I sometimes hit two strings with one strokes or if I manage to get over the next string. Any help?



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