Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Some Diminshed Theory/chord Scales
ConnorGilks
post Jan 25 2013, 05:25 AM
Post #1


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 230
Joined: 1-December 12
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Member No.: 17.078



We're going over Diminished harmony and chord scales in my jazz theory class and I'm a bit lost.

We've talked about how #1, #2, #4 and #5 diminshed 7 chords all use a chord scale that is a composite of the chord and the chord scale of the diatonic chord you are targeting. One note is omitted in order to make sure that the perfect 5th of the secondary dominant the diminished chord is derived from remains in tact, I believe the note omitted from the scale is the b5 of that secondary dominant.

Chord Scale wise I know that I can play a Mixolydian b9, #9, b13 a major third below any of these diminished 7 chords. Here's my thing though, if you look at the same scale based off of the root of the chord, there's no name for the scale. My teacher doesn't give it a name, our textbook doesn't give it a name, we are just told it's Mixolydian b9 #9 b13 starting on the 3rd. Why is there no name for this? How am I supposed to easily remember the notes if there's no relation to the root of the chord? Of course I can just write out the previously mentioned scale starting on the 3rd, but it' just one extra step to do because of a missing piece of information.

Anyways... hope that's not too confusing!


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Professor
post Jan 25 2013, 06:59 AM
Post #2


Theory Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 888
Joined: 8-January 13
From: Manchester UK
Member No.: 17.394



Hey, yeah it sounds like it's confusing you and making it tricky to apply the theory to a musical situation.

Can you write out the notes of the scale that you are talking about and I can help you figure out what it's called and a good way to use it.

I just want to see the notes to make sure I give you the right answer and don't confuse you further! smile.gif


As a bit of a side note, if you are looking at a dim scale you can harmonize it with just two chords. And you can use any/all of these arpeggios when soloing, which is a jazz trick that rock and fusion guys like to use.

So if you have C dim


C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

You can harmonize it like

Cdim7 D7 Ebdim7 F7 Gbdim7 Ab7 Adim7 B7 Cdim7

Cool little trick to use only two chords to harmonize every note in a WH Dim Scale.

Same thing for HW Dim Scales, such as this one with a D root

D Eb F Gb Ab A B C D

You can harmonize it as

D7 Ebdim7 F7 Gbdim7 Ab7 Adim7 B7 Cdim7 D7

And to make each chord more of a jazz voicing, you can make all the 7th chords 7b9 chords. Like D7b9, F7b9 etc.


--------------------
Ask me anything on the theory board. Follow my theory course. Check out my personal site
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Jan 25 2013, 04:56 PM
Post #3


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.849
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



QUOTE (The Professor @ Jan 25 2013, 05:59 AM) *
Cool little trick to use only two chords to harmonize every note in a WH Dim Scale.

Same thing for HW Dim Scales, such as this one with a D root

D Eb F Gb Ab A B C D

You can harmonize it as

D7 Ebdim7 F7 Gbdim7 Ab7 Adim7 B7 Cdim7 D7

And to make each chord more of a jazz voicing, you can make all the 7th chords 7b9 chords. Like D7b9, F7b9 etc.


Hopefully my post won't confuse or distract the OP. If it does at all please disregard this post.

Matt's explanation reminded me of something I saw Allan Holdsworth do 'live' one time.
He harmonized the half/whole scale like this ... D7#9 D/Eb F7#9 F/Gb Ab7#9 Ab/A etc.
Fingerings ... x5456x x6777x x8789x x 9 10 10 10 x etc.

*D/Eb = D triad with Eb in the bass (slash chords or triad over bass chords).
D/Eb is an altered or extended Eb diminished chord - dim w/maj7.

Again, if that's confusing or distracting don't worry about it.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 25 2013, 05:22 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AdamB
post Jan 28 2013, 03:48 PM
Post #4


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 425
Joined: 2-July 07
Member No.: 2.224



How does one apply the diminished scale when improvising? I've never used this scale before but as I'm working on improvisation at the moment I'm interested in finding out how to go about learning to use this.

I notice there's a lot of 7th chords in there when you harmonize it, is it generally slotted in over the 5th chord from the major/minor?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Professor
post Jan 28 2013, 05:10 PM
Post #5


Theory Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 888
Joined: 8-January 13
From: Manchester UK
Member No.: 17.394



QUOTE (AdamB @ Jan 28 2013, 02:48 PM) *
How does one apply the diminished scale when improvising? I've never used this scale before but as I'm working on improvisation at the moment I'm interested in finding out how to go about learning to use this.

I notice there's a lot of 7th chords in there when you harmonize it, is it generally slotted in over the 5th chord from the major/minor?



Hey, there are two answers to your question since there are 2 diminished scales.

For the whole-half diminished scale, the one that alternates whole and half steps, you can use that over a dim chord, or any of it's extensions dim7 or dimMaj7

For the half-whole diminished scale, the one that alternates half and whole steps, you can use that over a 7th chord to produce a 7b9, or more specifically 13b9, sound.

Try them out over those chords, lots of tensions but fun sound to play with!


--------------------
Ask me anything on the theory board. Follow my theory course. Check out my personal site
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th July 2017 - 03:37 AM